edw519

LOL, IF ONLY!

Another example that people in silicon valley (and yc in particular) have no idea what goes on in the real world.

(HN reply in one window, with skype and webex open in 2 other windows, my 5th and 6th meetings today. I've been on HN for 10 years with over 5,000 contributions, almost all while in meetings, ignoring talking heads and engaging you guys. You don't actually believe I'd be here if I had meaningful work to do, do you?)

I call B.S.

1. "associated" means nothing. "Anything" can be "associated" with "anything else". "significantly related" is almost as worthless. Correlation is better than association. Causation is better than correlation. Where's any of that? This is just a hypothesis, not a conclusion.

2. I've been working in corporate offices for 38 years in every possible environment imaginable: private office, war room, open office, basement, hallway, double office, even a closet. One place someone came in and yelled, "Get out of here now! There's mold everywhere!" Sure enough, hazmat had to clean the office.

3. I have NEVER missed a day of work. EVER. Some people say I'm lucky. That's probably a little bit true. But not really. Read on...

4. Here's a list of things that I believe (without any supporting data or government research) have "significantly more impact" on sickness absence that open-plan offices: diet, lifestyle, movement of any kind, drug use, tobacco, alcohol, stress from work, stress from non-work, medical history, genetics, donut consumption.

5. I loathe open offices for many reasons (mainly because those deciding these things have no idea how to achieve, but that's another rant). But cut me a break, blaming open offices for sickness absence is really a reach. Without proper controls, the statistical evidence presented by OP can be caused by many other co-factors. (See #4 above.)

6. Never get health info from the internet.

</rant>

I suggest looking into a liberal arts school that will enforce a well rounded education while still getting your tech classes in. Sadly, this may be your last chance to get that for a while.

The tech you learn in college will be obsolete in a few years. The "soft" stuff will last a lifetime.

I'm following you. Better yet, I'm following who you follow.

  1. Fly Southwest.
  2. Board earlier than most others.
  3. When someone eyeballs the adjacent seat, yell into your phone, "The ointment works much better than the lotion when the boils open!"

You know the feeling, when you get something working for the first time. Something that has never been done before and will never be done the first time ever again. And you just did it. You received input, thought about it, build it, tested it, changed it, stewed about it, agonized over it, redid it, and finally, finally, got output. Often beyond your wildest expectations. And you lept out of your chair and yelled, "Yeaaa!" and danced a little bit.

Sure, I have gotten this feeling from other things, from my writing, from my comedy, from sex, from when the Penguins score a goal, and most often, from others. But in the grand scale, those things rarely happen.

Writing software is different. I can Happy Dance all the time if I only set myself up for it.

In the enterprise, I hardly ever Happy Danced. In my own business, I Happy Danced almost every day. What more does one need for motivation?

Bill Joy, Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidtt, Tim Berners-Lee, Bill Gates, James Gosling, Dave Winer, Tim Bray, Ray Ozie

The center point of this rare astrological alignment in the mid 1950s was June 11, 1955.

James Gosling was born on May 19, 1955. So was I (note my username).

Whenever anyone asks for my resume, I just tell them I must be a great programmer because of my birth date and I send them this link: http://www.astrology.co.uk/news/1955.htm.

So far no one cares. But it makes me feel good to be in such company.

The insects with DNA that made them more likely to hit a windshield didn't live long enough to breed. :-)

  - Cats wake me up when it's light. I feed them.
  - Bike ride on trails, 5 to 13 miles.
  - Shower
  - fresh fruit, coffee, salad, grazing off & on all day
  - check & resolve all personal email
  - check & resolve all work email
  - check headlines
  - check work queue (Visual Studio)
  - review last night's notes
  - spend most of the day in IDE, writing code, unit testing
  - take a break every hour or 2 for email, VSO, snack, Hacker News, twitter, lichess
  - attend meetings when outlook reminds me
  - dinner with SO, reminded with, "Two minute warning!"
  - check & resolve all email (I end every day at email zero.)
  - Jeopardy with SO
  - no more computer
  - print source code, review, & mark up in red
  - write down tomorrow's To Do List
  - read other stuff
  - lights out

Data + Process = Results

Data is your current job.

Process is what you do with that data.

Most people will want to change the Data; that is, change job, change career, take vacation, etc.

Sounds like you're asking how to change Results without changing the Data, right?

Simple. Keep the Data the same but change the only other available variable: the Process...

Keep going to work. Keep doing the job. But change how you think about it: "How can I use this current situation as an investment toward my future?"

Consider multiple solutions to every work assignment, their way and a better way. You can still implement their way while learning a better way you can implement on the side or later.

Consider every assignment an "instance". Come up with a "class" of solutions for that instance. Instead of writing one solution, write a "mini-framework" that would solve this problem AND many similar problems. Again, you don't have to implement your elegant solution now, but once it's in your brain, it's yours forever.

Find time to talk to your users! Find out what they hate that's not being addressed (and there's probably plenty). Then work on that stuff on the side. Do it at work now and become a hero or don't do it at work now and become your own hero at another time or place.

Always be thinking, "How can I use this project to better myself?" Get creative. You may surprise yourself with the possibilities.

Most programmers struggle finding ideas. You have the opposite problem. You're surrounded by problems desperately needing solutions but not getting them. They're just not on your radar because you're so unhappy being unmotivated in your environment. Focus on the unassigned possibilities while you're in the muck. You may not realize it now, but where you're already at is the best place to find them.

Wait, what? Code you write yourself?

Sounds like they may have accidentally provided the perfect solution to different problem: technical recruiting and screening.

No more technical interviews. If your code doesn't work, you don't get your money. Woo hoo, problem solved.

I'd wager for every person helped by YC, another 1000 were helped by HN. There are lots of us programmers in the diaspora whose closest encounter to Silicon Valley is virtual, in places just like this.

Yea, yea, I know. There are lots of founders, investors, and celebrities in SV, but please don't forget about the rest of us, who just keep building and posting...for years.

We didn't remain together much longer.

To this day, the value of a relationship with another businessperson = sum(assets) * EthicsFactor. EthicsFactor is 1 or 0. There is no in-between.

Nice post, Jacques. It sure feels nice to comment in one your threads again.

Although it was a group effort, I ended up doing every job at one point or another: scheduling activities, speaking and writing, leading services, teaching classes, preparing meals, doing the website and communications, printing all the materials, arranging the furniture, even playing the piano.

It was just like running a business with all its ups and downs, with profits paid to the heart, not the wallet. There were no "metrics" to this endeavor so I really don't know how others' lives were affected, but I imagine and hope that they're still paying if forward.

Biggest surprise: how much I grew by giving. My people skills got so much better that they (almost) caught up to my tech skills. Now I feel like I can handle just about business situation.

My favorite night ever was when my mother came and said, "I'm so proud of you."

Best "job" I ever had.

1. Profitability manufacturing something increases dramatically when lowering overhead and driving direct labor. Direct labor in software are the programmers. Time spent programming (usually) produces product. Time spent not programming flushes money down the toilet. I have never found a better way to increase the direct labor / overhead ratio than by working remotely.

2. Proper process building software can give geometric increases in value. Things like business requirements, technical specifications, test plans, UAT, QA, project management, etc. When programmers are in the office, it's just too easy for managers and analysts to "wave their hands" and "call a meeting". Too often, that's their answer to everything. The meetings rarely serve their (ususally undefined) purpose. They give the appearance of progress without the progress. Problem #1: You've just wasted a little bit of your programmers' time. Problem #2: You will waste a whole lot more of their time at the other end when things aren't right.

3. Workingly remotely enforces discipline. Things need to be written down. It's hard to peer review meeting notes or Skype recordings. Specs, reqs, test plans, etc. need to be documented and reviewed BEFORE wasting programmer time. I generally try to turn down any meeting or Skype without something in writing. (Skype / Webex is just another way for managers to waste programming resources that doesn't feel as bad as a physical meeting.)

I have hard data via thousands of tickets over the years to say that working remotely has easily made me at least twice as productive. Mainly by getting others to leave me alone and to drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century by doing their jobs. The most important job of someone who doesn't program? Enabling those who do.

The main reason I love remote is not because of my home office, or short commute, or good 4-legged company, or working in my underwear, or anything else about me. It's because I have never found a better way to get shit done.

I gave everything else 1 star.

This has always been pretty binary for me.

When I have loved working on what I was working on, nothing else could have screwed that up. I just kept plowing on, motivated almost solely by compulsion.

When I have not loved what I was working on, nothing else could have helped except working on something else that I loved working on.

If they won't comply, that's a big red flag. Run the other way.

I don't like jerk bosses, difficult customers, unrealistic deadlines, lack of specs, reqs, or schedules, tough commutes, or unreasonable pay, but over the years, I've learned to live with them.

I have never learned to live with shitty code.

I'll answer your phones. I'll clean your toilets. I'll even take your daughter to the movies.

But I will never refactor another 800 line case statement with 26 early exits, 14 double negatives, and 90 unintelligible variable assignments inside a 23,000 line module. Never.

I wish I had adopted this philosophy years ago. Oh how much better my life would have been.

Sure there is:

  1. Alt-F4
  2. Ctrl-Alt-Del

I’ve found it’s often easier to keep a few broader ideas in mind.

Funny, OP doesn't mention the broadest idea of all: ego.

I've worked with hundreds of programmers and have sensed an inverse correlation between experience and openness to suggestions about maintainable code. I believe that the main reason is not that the more experienced developers are convinced that their methods are that much better (after all, there are often many acceptable ways), but that their ego won't let them "lose a debate".

When I return peer reviewed code to a young developer with suggestions (and reasoning!) about how to make it more maintainable, I often get a big thank you. The same feedback often gets a debate from a more experienced developer.

On the other hand, when someone gives me feedback and suggestions, my first reaction is to engage them and explain why they're wrong and I'm right. But as soon as I set my ego aside and think of the code instead of myself, I open myself up to learning. This is vital because what I don't know is always much, much more than what I do.

Of all the things I've discussed here at Hacker News over the years, this is probably the #1 subject. Most programmers have the opposite problem of you: they have trouble turning their minds on.

I always turn my computer off several hours before bed. The last thing I do every night is review hard copies of code with a red marker. Many nights I dream of my project/code. Sometimes I even jump up in the middle of the night and go to my computer, write down my thoughts, or lately, voice record them.

Sometimes I am incredibly grateful for the "gift" I've received from "outside myself" in the middle of the night. Other times I'm annoyed. For every cool insight, there are many false positives: What was I thinking? But the positives far outweigh the negatives.

I don't know why this works, but I can't imagine accomplishing all I do without it. Many programmers struggle for years to turn this "mind CRON" on. You already have the gift. I suggest you find a way to embrace it and turn your lemons into lemonade. You don't have a problem; you have a gift. Make it count!

My original HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=191275

Also #49 here: http://v25media.s3.amazonaws.com/edw519_mod.pdf

The villagers brought in an expert government official who inspected the bull and cow's behavior.

He asked the villagers, "Did you get this cow from Irkutsk?"

They responded, "Wow. That's amazing. How did you know?"

"My wife is from Irkutsk."

  free Thanksgiving lunch (where we have to listen to executives talk)
  free Christmas lunch (where we have to listen to executives talk)
  free Years of Service Lunch (where we have to listen to executives talk)
  free Company Picnic (where we have to listen to executives talk)
  free ice cream at I.T. All Hands Meetings (where we have to listen to the VP of I.T. talk)
  free "Skip Over Your Boss" lunches with VP of I.T. where he gives the same answer to any question asked
  free "Start, Stop, Continue" lunches with VP of I.T. where no suggestions are implemented
  free "Value Stream Mapping" lunches where we plan big processes that will never be implemented
  free "Operational Excellence" lunches where we plan little processes that will never be implemented
  free breakfast at every layoff (where the VP of I.T. tries to explain why he laid off the best programmers)
  free breakfast where Big 5 consultants explain what they will try to implement that can't possibly work
  free week at Caribbean resort (but for executives only)
  

Ha Ha, you'd be a baby on my team. I'm 61, on a team of 20 people in a department of 100 people. Age range 21 to 72. I find little or no correlation between age and anything that really matters. Like quality of work, deliverance of value, or wanting to be on the same team.

I look around and there is hardly anyone over 40 and no-one 50+ unless they hit executive level.

That's just where you're at. I know hundreds of people in their 50s and 60s doing great work who are not executives. Lots of them are programmers, too. The happiest and most successful are doing stuff they love (or have learned to love).

The industry is about new technology and working

No. Any industry is about satisfying customers. Don't confuse what's in front of your face every day with what really matters.

..so as someone that likes to plan ahead. What do you think are good career options for the 50+?

Exactly the same as for 49-. Whatever's best for you. (More below)

I've been trying to think of jobs were age is an advantage.

I can't think of a single job where age would be an advantage. Experience maybe, but not age. I can think of a few where it would be a disadvantage: pro basketball player is one. But that belies the point: You should be thinking about a job where what you bring is an advantage: your skills, education, passion, etc. Forget age and focus on this.

The best I can think of is financial planning. Most people visit their planner when retirement is on their mind, so you'll likely be meeting people of a similar group and mindset.

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. If you love financial planning, by all means do it. But if you don't, finding a reason to do it doesn't make any sense. You're unlikely to find much success in any field you don't love, no matter what the other co-factors are.

Whereas in this industry being 21 and enthusiastic wont go far with many older people.

Oh yes it does! I have 18 people on my team under age 26 and I love working with them!

What does HN think are good options?

I don't know what the rest of HN thinks, but here's what I think:

Find what you love, what you're good at, and what puts food on the table and do it! Pour your heart and soul into it, get better at it, and it would be hard for you to NOT make the world a better place by doing it. Forget the rest, what others think, what's trendy, what you think may be important (but probably isn't).

I've been programming professionally for 38 years and can't imagine doing anything else. I hope I go another 38, no matter where the industry takes me.

My best advice of all: Take care of yourself now or you may not be able to do much of anything in your 50s.

I'd rather find this out in an interview than during a critical sprint. That's part of the reason I do it this way. I'm interested in your work habits and personality as much as your code. I make my interviews as "low stress" as possible. A coder who can't code for me for 15 to 30 minutes is a big red flag.

you're invalidating months/years of open-source work

I'm not "invalidating" anything. I'm just doing my job as efficiently as possible, which is to assess your ability to contribute to my team.

I have interviewed over 2500 programmers and have never looked at their previous work, on github or anywhere else. Never.

  - I don't know if it's their own work.
  - I don't know if they were part of a team that did the work.
  - I don't know their role on that team.
  - I don't know how long it took to build it.
  - I don't know what else it connects to.
  - I don't understand the context that the work fits into.
  - It's usually far too much for me to review to get a feel of their ability.

I usually have them do something small in 15 to 30 minutes, on white board, pencil and paper, or environment of their choice. OP mentions fizzbuzz. This is often a good choice (and weeds out 90% right away).

Then I review what they've done with them. I'm interested in their "noun" (what they've produced), but more interested in their "verb", the discussion thay have with me about what they've done. That discussion can get very interesting...

  - Why did you do it this way?
  - How else could you have done it?
  - What could go wrong?
  - If you had more time, what else would you have done?
  - What additional data could you have used to make your decisions?

Believe me, I know there are lots of Fraudulent Bryans out there. They don't get past me. They shouldn't get past anyone who doesn't have a lazy dependence on stuff like github.

FWIW, OP's 3 metrics:

  1. Clarity of Thought and Communication
  2. Judgment about People
  3. Personal Integrity and Commitment

EDIT, response to walterbell & el_benharneen about what made the 3 different (in no particular order):

  - They always told the truth (to everybody).
  - They knew their stuff (tech, system, user domain).
  - They figured out the right thing to do.
  - They communicated often and flawlessly.
  - They did whatever it took to get the right thing done.
  - They smiled almost all the time.
  - They made each other person feel special.
  - They made work fun.
  - They were always teaching something.
  - They called bullshit instantly.
  - They protected their team.
  - They inspired us by showing how good things could be.

Who better to share, "You are not alone."