Etihad allows flyers to bid to keep adjacent seats empty | Hacker News Reader

Etihad allows flyers to bid to keep adjacent seats empty

economist.com

85 pointsedward109 comments

My two tips for how to keep the adjacent seat empty on normal flights:

1. If you book when there are still many empty seats, choose a window/aisle seat near the back of the plane. Those middle seats are usually the last to be filled.

2. If you're traveling in a group of 2 and there are 3 seats per section, choose the window and aisle of an empty section (preferably near the back of the plane). Chances are good that if there are any empty seats left on the plane, it could be your middle seat. If someone does happen to book that middle seat, I think 99.99% of the time that person would be happy to change to the aisle/window so you can sit next to your partner.

International flights are usually undersold.

I pick the middle seat. People will just opt for another row with a window or isle open and the middle seat open so they can have some space.

I often end up with a row to myself.

Really? What kind of international flights (src/dst/airline) have you seen being undersold the last five years or so? (I have seen so many flights that have been kinda the opposite. It was markedly different back in like 2008-2013.)

In mid-late April this year, I flew with Delta from Minneapolis to Tokyo Haneda and the flight was around 70% full in Economy - I was the only one in my row, and the row ahead was empty (by row I mean a set of three seats; I don't know the phrase for that).

The way back was pretty full though (middle of Golden Week for Japan). I must have been pretty lucky for the trip there!

Not parent, but Oman Air Paris to Muscat leg has been ~50% full at the most the last 3 times I took it. They're a top notch airline, flying Boeing 787, and their Muscat to final destination leg has always been full (same as the Muscat to Paris return flight), so I can't figure out why other than "I've been lucky" when the likes of Emirates/Etihad/Qatar Airways/... are full as can be.

Picture from my mid-May flight after closed doors: http://imgur.com/a/8ikMP

I just did Bangkok to Muscat on Oman and the fight was amazingly empty. We were on a 787 and I'd guess we had about a third to half the seats booked.

Combined with their decently low price, recent fleet and good services, they're really becoming one of my favorite airlines for EU->Asia. Now if only muscat airport could be a bit better ...

You do realise they won't be around for much longer if their flights are half-empty?

Given that it's owned by the Government of Oman, which is in charge of a "high income economy", it's probably pretty safe.

Last two years:

AT: CMN <-> BER, CMN <-> FRA

HV: AGA <-> AMS

KL: AMS -> CUR

AR: EZE -> MAD

I prefer to fly Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday and unless it's some holiday coming up at the destination I usually have the whole row for myself.

I don't think it is necessarily that they are undersold, although I am sure many are, but the rate at which people change or cancel flights is quite high and international flights are harder to oversell for various reasons.

LHR <-> IAD

IAH <-> LHR

IAH <-> DXB

DXB <-> PER

I flew DXB-PER return about 5 times in the last 12 months and only once did I get it undersold. And I have no idea why that happened. Wish I remember which trip it was now, have to see if I can find a photo of me laying down across 4 seats!

I've been on two Moscow-Tokyo flights (Aeroflot) that were less than one third full.

I've been on a couple of intercontinental flights using Etihad, Swissair, Lufthanza and British Airways between Europe and Asia, most of which were not fully filled for the long legs between major hubs.

I've also seen a few full flights, so I guess it depends on luck and the seasons.

Industry standard is to overbook economy by about 110% (there's a whole department dedicated to calculating this figure) and sometimes business class too.

Domestically, sure. The margins are better on international flights which might be why there tends to be more empty seats.

International flights are also more likely to be weight-restricted (like UA's TATL 757 operations).

Very much not "usual", possibly more likely for some sectors and times.

But flying ex-PER (and sometimes MEL, SYD) on Qantas (QF), Emirates (EK) and Cathay Pacific (CX) I rarely get flights with any more than a few empty middle seats.. and many times completely full including the flights on from their respective hubs to all sorts of US, European and Asian locations. Including mid week flights.

I did once get a super empty flight DXB-PER for some reason, it was mid week but I've never had that since, no idea why that one was so empty unless it was because it was right as they started their dual A380 service [I don't remember if that was true]? That was glorious had 4 seats to myself to stretch out and slept most of it. great for a 10h flight [I made about 10 20+ hours trips last year]

And SYD-DFW A380 on QF is weight limited so you get more empty middle seats there.

Possibly true for some sectors and times of week or something but airlines are hotly contested and they're just not going to be profitable flying planes with loadings not approaching capacity.

I do the same thing of getting a window and aisle in the back when booking seats for two. I've never had trouble trading. I think there are some people who might prefer middle to window (you'd rather climb over one person than two if you have to use the bathroom) but nobody prefers middle to both aisle and window.

Likewise, whenever I book a last-minute flight with only middle seats available, I make sure to ask the agent to place me between two passengers with the same last name.

Why would two people in the same family book seats not next to each other?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14638000 :)

see tip of the parent comment

Of course, the last time I did that I ended up between two people who did not want to move, yet still wanted to talk to each other the entire flight with me in the middle.

You did this, and the agent agreed? What airline?

Why do airlines expose the last names?

Well they're not going to ask "Is the seat between Mr and Mrs Jones all right?", there's no need to expose the name to you when you ask to be placed between people with the same last name.

That's still data I'd rather they don't share -- no need for anyone to know that I'm married to the person in the aisle seat. Minimize exposure.

Exposure to what?

Before the middle seat person gets on the plane, they only know that there are two people there who are married, not that you specifically are one of them. The existence of married people is not a secret.

After you're on the plane, it would probably become apparent that you and your spouse are married, or at least related in some way to each other. If you have some game with your spouse where you pretend to not know each other in public or something, I guess maybe it could ruin that, but otherwise I'm not sure what the harm is.

That's when you join in on the conversation.

Which sounds like a fun way to punish them, or coerce them into switching with you, but as an introvert, I think I'd rather just put on my headphones.

What agent are you talking to that has access to the names of all passengers and is willing to abuse it for you?

Every agent who has access to the flight booking system has access to the names of the passengers on the flight.

I'm surprised people are surprised by this... They even yell out names to people that need to check in...

Generally, agents in legacy airline lounges (e.g. a United Club, Admirals Clubs, etc.) are willing to do things like this.

Anecdotally, I've noticed that they tend to be more senior (so know what's possible / what they can get away with), less busy (so they're less frustrated and frazzled), and tend to deal with much more experienced travelers than a normal gate agent (so, again, they're less frustrated).

Yep, a United Club agent is where I got the idea originally.

> legacy airline

Thanks to mergers and lack of DOJ anti-trust enforcement there are now only legacy airlines.

See also: the phone reps for high-tier members, for the same reason. (Not that I'd ask for this particular accommodation, but having access to the premium member line is one of the most useful perks of concentrating your travel.)

But your plan will fail and seat you between me and my wife, since we don't have the same last name.

His objective isn't to determine whether you and your wife are married, but to identify one married couple who have an empty middle seat between them.

Unless you and your wife are the only married couple on the plane fitting that criteria, it's irrelevant.

Like Ron and Reggie Kray?

I used to do (2), before I did a recent India trip with my wife. I have been lucky all my life when it comes to having nice co-passengers, but this guy shattered my track record. He had the middle seat, and was willing to exchange it for the aisle (but not the window) seat. Among the things he did to me were wake me up every 30 mins on a 15 hr flight, drunkenly pour a drink on my pants and use my shirt as a napkin after a cutlery-less meal.

YMMV (and I hope it does)!

That's awful, but it doesn't seem related to this tactic. If you had booked two adjacent seats, he would have just ended up in the third, and you'd have the same problem.

Correct. I think as part of being grateful for his willingness to exchange seats, I humored him for an hour or so, before starting to cut my losses.

That second one is genius, thank you! I was reading the first two sentences like 'ok, but what if...' then I got to the third and '...oh. Well played!'

I can’t help but share my slightly riskier plane seating hack as well...

On any flight with assigned seating, wait until everyone has boarded. Wait until they call your name (or until you are the obvious last to board). Proceed to sit in any open seat within economy, with the most empty seats adjacent.

Usually staff at the terminal desk will also tell you where the open seats are...

Don't forget to check in your carry-on while you are at it, since all overhead bins are already filled by the time 70% of the passengers are boarded.

I often check in my bag anyway if I have a long flight and a layover long enough that I can have lunch at my connection airport. I only bring a light backpack that can fit under the seat in front of me.

Stick it in business class overhead bin on your way through.

Well if you do find an adjacent empty seat you can just pop your bag under the seat in front of it.

3. Resist the urge to boast about your most effective techniques in public.

I usually only fly on planes with 2-seat side rows when travelling in a group of 2.

This is really interesting from a game theory perspective.

What's really going to matter is how it's executed. If someone bids $100 to keep a seat empty and the flight is empty, do they still get charged the $100? Or is it only when there's a limited number of empty seats and more people that will pay to have an empty seat next to them.

One interesting way would be that each person gets charged the lowest amount of everybody who has an empty seat next to them. This obviously limits what the airline makes, but keeps things generally fair.

Another way is when people go to reserve seats, if someone is willing to pay $x to keep an adjacent seat empty, the price of selecting that seat goes up by $x. This guarantees the airline gets paid at least $x as soon as someone bids that. It also makes it more important to book seats early, but will of course, get much more complicated to execute.

One of the things I do when booking flights for two, is choose an aisle seat and a window seat. Odds are if the flight is not full, a solo traveler will not book the middle seat, and we end up having all three seats for us. If someone does book the middle seat, we just trade aisle/window for the middle, so we're together, and he other person feels like he got an upgrade.

> This obviously limits what the airline makes, but keeps things generally fair.

What possible incentive would an airline have to do that, then?

> If someone does book the middle seat, we just trade aisle/window for the middle, so we're together, and he other person feels like he got an upgrade.

This infuriates me. My wife and I traveled cross country last month and due to a maintenance issue the previous night, our 6am flight was cancelled and we were pushed to 10am. What resulted was us trying to select seats when every row on the plane was either full or window-aisle. Had people flying together actually selected seats next to each other, it stands to reason some of those would have opened up and we may have been able to sit together.

Not a big deal for a 30-minute connecting flight, but not the best 5 hours to start a trip with.

In this situation, wouldn't the person sitting in the middle be willing to trade for either the aisle or the window seat?

I think the point of the parent comment is that the strategy of capturing the two end seats of a three-person row displaces noncoupled passengers across more rows which has the potential to make finding coupled seats less likely for other fliers.

Yes I didn't do a great job explaining it but this is what I meant. You end up with a lot of couple + single filled rows and couple + empty seat rows. If you selected the seats you wanted instead of trying to game everyone else on what is probably a full or nearly-full flight anyway, there would be more rows filled with 3x single passengers.

> What possible incentive would an airline have to do that, then?

For one, the airline makes more than if it had without bidding. Second, there is some value in not completely pissing off your customers. In my opinion, if the airline asks "how much are you willing to pay?" but you normally pay less, customers will hand over their money with a smile.

> it stands to reason some of those would have opened up and we may have been able to sit together.

I'm curious what your reasoning is? That experience sounds like it sucked, I've had similar and I can sympathize, but I might guess that your anger is misplaced. The comment you replied to is someone traveling in a pair. People traveling in pairs and shifting from a window/aisle to a middle only vacates 1 seat in a 3-seats-per-side 727 type plane, so that strategy doesn't affect you. If a plane is entirely full of pairs, no shifting for people to sit together will let you and your wife sit together. You could possibly sit across the aisle from each other if you find two pairs, which you can sometimes do with some talking to passengers and/or agents.

It's far more likely that the plane was mostly full of singles and not pairs, and asking someone to move to a middle for you is a downgrade for them. I've done it successfully before by asking a few people nearby who'd be willing to move in exchange for me buying them a drink on the flight. But, most people are quite understandably reluctant to move to a middle when they're in a window or aisle with an empty middle next to them.

Ultimately though, no amount of communication or behavior or game theory would be better than if the airlines would just make the seats more reasonably sized -- just a couple inches in each direction. But of course, if they do that, we pay more. :P

> What's really going to matter is how it's executed. If someone bids $100 to keep a seat empty and the flight is empty, do they still get charged the $100? Or is it only when there's a limited number of empty seats and more people that will pay to have an empty seat next to them.

For sure they will, and probably that's what they are after. Think of it like this, when you pay for an economy seat and get 2 adjacent seats for free because the plane is half empty you're basically winning the lottery since many travellers are randomly assigned. The airline will monetise on this from now on by opening up the bids.

It's very interesting also to see to what degree prices will go up since this would create some scarcity. The airline is probably happier to accommodate as few passengers as possible due to the extra passenger overhead (check-in, bags, service) though the math is quite hard considering upsales and all.

All in all, I have always been fascinated about the complex problems the airline industry is solving and this only adds more to it. Would really like to see the software implementing all this.

It is fair actually, you are bidding for the empty spaces. If flight is not full, empty places are assigned to people with the order of their bidding.

From game theory perspective best option is bidding something like 1$ etc. (considering probably not many people will bid)

>Another way is when people go to reserve seats, if someone is willing to pay $x to keep an adjacent seat empty, the price of selecting that seat goes up by $x. This guarantees the airline gets paid at least $x as soon as someone bids that. It also makes it more important to book seats early, but will of course, get much more complicated to execute.

But what if it is this way. Where if $x is the bid amount to keep the next seat empty (say middle seat that no one prefers booking), then the bid cost of that seat and comes $x*y% thus some passenger is encouraged to book the ticket and hence the bid value changes dynamically.

From an ecological point of view, this is very problematic. As far as it's value as a business idea goes, I'd say this an interesting idea.

By ecologically problematic, do you mean that if many passengers opt to fly with adjacent seats empty it would transitively mean that more flights would be needed to meet the demand? (if that is the case it absolutely makes sense !)

That's what I meant yes. Of course if it's applied onlx on routes where utilization is low a priori, my argument doesn't apply.

Doesn't the same argument apply to the existence of business class? Since to a very large extent, what you're paying for in business class is the extra square feet of cabin space.

I think they just make money from reshuffling empty seats they were gonna have anyway, not more than that. But I must admit I didn't read the article because my whole screen filled with junk while opening the website.

Sure. At the bottom of it, it's subsidized by the relative inexpense of oil, and how much we can do with that energy.

Which reminds me: Is there a name for and can I read more about the problem of economy, market and pricing of resources for sustainability?

This book Prosperity Without Growth [1] is a decent start from the perspective of an economist/environmentalist. It's somewhat hampered by the author's failure to rigorously define terms (a serious no-no for any economic/philosophical argument) but contains some good ideas.

Another great read from a more relate able angle is The Omnivore's Dilemma which doesn't address the issue very directly, but shows in painstaking detail how the US food chain has moved from a renewable solar base to one derived entirely from corn, which in turn relies on cheap petrochemical sources to grow at the speed, intensity, and volume that we grow it in the US.

Check out the reviews for both books as well - many of them cite other important works in the genre.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Prosperity-without-Growth-Economics-F...

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dilemma-Natural-History-Mea...

> Sure.

No. The seats are not being made empty. You're just moving the empty seat next to you. Zero energy impact, save for moving the information around.

Hmm, I dunno... it relieves some of the financial pressure of having empty seats, by extracting some value from them. Therefore there will be less incentive for the airline to maximize seat utilization (through overbooking, for example, which saves money but costs reputation for the airline every time someone gets booted). Therefore we can expect seat utilization to go down.

That's true. That's a pretty complex effect, so you'd need some decent data to estimate its magnitude. But you're right it should be above zero, unless there's some other effect to suppress it.

it is just bid, empty space is not guaranteed. So there is no ecological effect.

Doesn't go into how it works - if I bid $50 to have an empty seat next to me, and the flight ends up being fully booked, is my $50 refunded?

Presumably, because you'd have lost the auction.

You don't pay until you win the big, just like business class seat auctions.

If you don't fancy the price of premium economy or business class, you can get some great deals at the literal last minute.

Go through with your flight as normal, check in, go through security, and find a member of staff for your flight. Ask how much an upgrade costs, and if they have the space available, they're open to offers.

For example, about 5 years ago I got economy+ on British Airways LHR -> LAX for $200, and business offered for $600 or $700 IIRC. Not bad for a 12 hour flight!

I think Seatfrog are now gamifying the last-minute-upgrade trick.

http://seatfrog.com/

If you're flying with another person, you can try booking the window and aisle, then hope the middle doesn't get filled. If someone does take the middle seat, they're usually willing to trade so you and your partner can sit next to each other.

This has worked for me on several international flights.

This is a smart move. Such a model could allow passengers to choose from a continuous range of options from being packed like sardines, to flying first class, to flying completely privately on _any_ flight. Picture an airliner cabins as easily reconfigurable as a minivan's.

Hmm, AirBerlin is offering this now for 1+ years. Note that Etihad heavily invested in AirBerlin.

Another technology solution to a non-technical problem.

  1. Fly Southwest.
  2. Board earlier than most others.
  3. When someone eyeballs the adjacent seat, yell into your phone, "The ointment works much better than the lotion when the boils open!"

You're getting downvoted but this is a good point - southwest does it right.

For whatever reason, people dislike the back of the plane but if you can tolerate that, you typically have your choice of isle or window, even with crappy line placement.

The back of the plane is not ideal when you want to get off the plane sooner to catch your connecting flight.

This has worked on flights to/from particularly religious countries. I got the whole exit row on one flight from Poland, the guys already seated actually asked to move.

  1. Wear a black metal band t-shirt

This has only worked once:

  1. Teach the toddler in the middle seat on the first flight to speak a little English
  2. Her father will be so happy and relaxed, he will let her eat the overly sweet BA dessert
  3. She will be sick all over both adults
  4. No-one wants to sit next to the sick-smelling guy on the next flight.

Flew back to the states from London yesterday. Had the whole row to myself (planned it that way). People in front of me were upset that I wouldn't give up one of my seats. Nope. Slept like a baby.

I'm quite certain that they could have just taken one of the empty seats and you would have been powerless to prevent it. However the English are polite to a fault.

Nope, they were Americans. If I would have refused the flight attendants probably wouldn't have pushed the issue. Usually they won't.

How in the world can you refuse to have the plane's staff seat people in whatever empty seat they see fit? They are in the right to do so and you are in the wrong to act as if it's up to you to have any part in the decision. You are basically just taking advantage of the airline workers' aversion to having someone make a fuss.

The staff didn't. They took it upon themselves to move. They asked the staff if it was ok and the staff said yes but didn't help reseat them.

I love how downvoted I'm getting in this thread. LOL

"If I would have refused the flight attendants probably wouldn't have pushed the issue. Usually they won't."

As I didn't vote on your comment I can't say for sure, but probably people are downvoting you because your own statements make it sound like you're bullying busy airline staff into getting what you want even though it's not owed to you.

Did you pay for a whole row? If not, I can understand why people were upset...

Yes i would have just sat there and the guy would have moved his legs wether he is asleep or not. Unless he paid for the row of course or was dirty / smelly

I would have too. Guess they lacked the stomach.

The airline system is full of opportunity for gaming. I you fly a lot you learn the system.

The guy across the isle from me did the exact same thing.

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