> Some use cases like business chat actually can't have E2EE, and that'd probably be Jabber's foot in the door because no other open solution has taken off in business
So, Cisco Jabber (now Webex)? You can't really compete against Microsoft and its bundling strategy. Even Slack is dying, unfortunately.
Of note, Conversations and some other XMPP clients can act as UnifiedPush Distributors (i.e. they use their own reliable persistent connection to proxy notifications for other apps). Some mastodon (tusky, fedilab, …), matrix (fluffy chat, element x, …) clients use it¹
Re: P2P, it's kind of making an impromptu comeback. If you want some trivia, IIRC, the developer of Conversations was on some trans-continental flight few months ago and realized that XMPP works just fine on the free onboard internet plan (being considered by the firewall as legitimate "social-usage"), except for HTTP upload. So now, when your HTTP upload fails, Conversations asks if you want to try again with P2P, so you can send your images for free from the plane :-)
I looked into that very briefly about a decade or so ago: it would be very difficult to get it done and maintained in practice. XMPP leans towards the "dumb server/smart client" side of the trade-off, while Telegram is the exact opposite: while an XMPP client establishes and maintains a session and its state, retrieves a list of discussions, for each, requests and processes new messages, and infers reas markers and counts (a bit like a traditional mail client like thunderbird), Telegram maintains the session and the client state on the server and the client is a thin layer to just display it.
XMPP is so bad on mobile that this persistent connection thingy and the whole XMPP protocol itself are effectively what prop up every single push notification on Android and Nintendo switch. True, Android vendors made a habit of killing background apps for misguided battery optimization reasons (less the case nowadays), which XMPP taught itself to work around in 2014/2015.
Same for media, it just works, you should try it? And funny you mention WhatsApp, it's effectively a dialect of XMPP running on a fork of ejabberd.
> if you're a human rights activist or journalist in an oppressive country, I'd stick to Signal
So that the state actor can listen on the edge of the network and infer with whom you are taking and when? Or maximize their chances of finding a 0-day in the client considering that it's the same client that everyone else's using? Or throwing it all away anyways when it's using Apple/Play services for notifications delivery?
I mean, as opposed to using something like XMPP which you can completely use over Tor and never even reveal which server you use/that you use XMPP, from a client running a secure and minimalistic OS and no service-in-the-middle ?
Some would label Signal as a honeypot and it would be difficult to falsify that.
That's a defeatist take that's been vastly debunked, someone linked the Matrix version and here is the XMPP one: https://gultsch.de/posts/objection/
In short, yes, building a standard takes some effort, but that serves your users and to future-proof your solution. Moxie's post boils down to "1- I know better than my users and I don't need input to protocol-design, 2- I'm not willing to put in the effort to standardize and document, 3- I reserve the right to change the deal for whatever reason if I ever feel the need" which is not a good look
Realistically nothing is ever perfect, but XMPP comes very close. You've got Signal-introduced double-ratchet encryption if forward secrecy is your jam (so it's as "E2E-secure" in practical terms) and you've got a healthy ecosystem of independent client and server implementers, and service providers to choose from.
Signal is there for power and control, not for its users, otherwise they would welcome the usage of third party clients, and generally, encourage decentralisation measures like self hosting, federation and account portability. Yep, they have nice engineering blog posts, they are also US-incorporated, extensively centralised in AWS and subject to the cloud act, which together negates, or largely diminishes claims about being privacy conscious.
My audio needs have been satisfied for many years with subsonic, then airsonic, and now navidrome. They all expose the same subsonic API, which gives quite some flexibility on the audio player client to use. At the moment, Tempus (Android) seems well maintained, but I miss from DSub the lower clarity as to what is cached for offline consumption.
Doesn't matter, we need to opt out of the rat race that consists of making the planet worse for the next generations in exchange of quick bucks for the oligarchs.
The same applies to labour conditions and quality standards. And don't bring up arguments like "it can't work" or "that hurt competitiveness": all workers around the world want the exact same thing, a livable planet for their children. The only ones to object are the global elite who one ends up defending when they make the current status quo sound inevitable.
Yeah, perhaps "hack together" is unnecessarily dismissive, but the experience to match is that of a single peripheral to control everything. The other area I have no interest expanding my knowledge into is the minefield of codecs, HDMI cables, GPU and drivers combos to have something outputting HDR and whatever Dolby's flavour of the month proprietary invention I inevitably come across.
Yeah, because the only thing that's for certain is that American LLMs are so special that they cannot be reproduced, as everyone has been knowing already in 2023 from the public "we have a gigantic moat" Google memo.
> This. Why would you even connect TV to the network?
I happen to have a NAS with family pictures I like to display. I can (and do) firewall that thing, but then you hit other issues like the apps you need to show pictures and movies in the first place not to install/run.
I've yet to hear of a reasonable recipe to isolate and secure such connected TVs. And don't get me started on Chromecast or other Android dongles, I've no reason to expect better treatment from Google. Some open source hacked-together box, then?
I don't think the American oligarchy even bothers with keeping up appearances anymore, so, good luck with that! (Also, I fully agree with you, and it's especially infuriating as all this was clearly coming from miles away. Next up is privatizing the losses when the unsound financing of it all comes crashing down).
Don't read this as me saying that we are anywhere near it, or that LLMs are a stepping stone towards this scenario, but assuming inhumane hacking capabilities, it's not hard to think of how bots could change the way water treatment or energy plants operate, just enough to make large cities unsuitable for life. The line between drinkable water and not is thin, same goes for air quality, and mere days without electricity and you see some serious food supply chain issues.
That's why, every time a discussion comes up about decoupling from the US tech and cloud offering, and how supposedly the whole world is captive and incapable without it, I'm like "well, certainly we should give it a serious try, because we might love a bit too much what we encounter down the road in terms of complexity and costs savings."
Sure, and all it took was a systematic dismantling and building anew the whole government and a bunch of institutions, not exactly a "oh, the other party will figure something out over the course of the next term"
As a non American, I don't think you can get back from this unless you get rid of the 2-parties system. Identity politics is a big component to what compelled individuals to operate against their own interests and those of their country. Good luck, though.
And yours and other's agents will probably remain an insignificant and invisible customer base anyway.
My crystal ball is as good as anyone's, but if "agentic shopping" ever becomes mainstream, you can be sure that the vast majority will ask their phone (i.e. Google, i.e. Google Shopping) what the best price is anyways.
By that point, you don't need an AI that boils the oceans and hopefully doesn't confabulate or misinterpret your words, all you need is a better corporate travel portal, which is a legitimate workplace productivity discussion to have, and a solved problem with traditional methods. Ours is effectively close to the workflow you describe: picking dates and time brackets, destination, fine tuning flights and hotel options, sending for validation, less than 10 clicks through information-dense and effective/predictable screens which I wouldn't want to trade for a chatbot and it's usually over the top words salad.
On a different corner of the open source ecosystem, PrusaSlicer, also a wxWidget project, just announced the first of its v3 releases with a full GUI rewrite, and what a blast from the past it was to have a X11, non-scaled, wrong font & dpi. It's really unfortunate that they didn't take the opportunity to switch to Qt
Thanks for taking the time to write this down and cite sources. I'm baffled by the recent-ish increase of such dismissive and lazy comments as the one you responded to.
Folks, until LLMs (but more probably, something that succeeds them) know that they don't know, or know that they hallucinate, don't take medical, legal, technical, financial (...) advice without a fair amount of salt.
I saw a laptop earlier in the train that I asked ChatGPT, Claude and Gemini what it was, providing a brand, screen size and ports description. Gemini could never figure it out, Claude and ChatGPT eventually did, after multiple rounds of indirection, giving completely wrong answers (there was a perfect match for the problem statement, they all explored alternatives first).
LLMs are (probably) amazing at things I don't care about, and still suck at the mundane stuff you would have the marketing tell you they excel at.