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I wasn't making an appeal to authority, nor was I agreeing with V.B. I was trying to point out that finance may mean different things in different contexts. Not sure why you keep obsessing over this propaganda narrative, as if I'm a brainless NPC. I'm open to learning new things, and if you're more knowledgable then I'll listen.

For instance, I really like your view of finance as these emergent properties of human behaviour. My question is then: how do you propose we refer to the entities we currently have in place for trading of securities, market making, fractional banking, clearing houses, central bank issued fiat, etc? Clearly there is a difference between those "things" and what we do in DeFi, right?

So what label am I allowed to use to distinguish these entities from DeFi?

Because it's a polarizing topic. I find this particular ad-hominem rather mild, compared to what you find on Reddit.

I'm a pragmatic person, not some crazy fundamentalist. I do use fiat where necessary, yeah.

> I do not think everybody will want to deal with it.

The thing is, crypto should be much, MUCH easier to deal with, we just don't have mature software/UX around this. Because we're still figuring out best practices, and people are learning about this tech.

> You don't properly evaluate the present value of money if you are willing to trade your present money for future money at completely unknown conversion rate and adoption date.

Unknown can mean many things. I'm convinced that the fair value of crypto is much, much higher. Adoption is still sluggish and small.

I believe in crypto's success, which you might call speculation.

First of all, the "collusion" Buterin is referring to is a game -theoretic term and is precisely defined. Based on your response I'm guessing you are not familiar with his blog post.

Calling something propaganda without being familiar with the source is probably the purest form of irony.

By expressing your desire for crypto payments to said vendors. If there's enough demand, the industry can change to accommodate it.

This dynamic actually exists even in much more conservative/slower moving fields like hardware manufacturing. It's a slow process

Your response is the first that's really interesting. I know that the fair value is much, much higher than it is now, because there is virtually no real adoption.

> what’s the right coin and right amount to hold?

That's an amazing question. I have truly no idea. I'm investing based on my personal conviction.

But this opens up a really interesting discussion about game theory and prediction markets. In a zero-sum prediction market, refusing to play is pareto-optimal and an equilibrium strategy.

So you could call me an irrational actor. I'm making a first move based on personal belief, thereby giving you an opportunity to arbitrage me. I believe that the fair value is higher than it is now. If you believe differently, short me. (I'm just joking of course, but I do find your question intriguing, and is something I've been thinking about a lot)

When people talk about traditional finance, we mostly refer to the existing technologies for issuance of currency, settlement of fiat transactions, and the debt hierarchy.

Of course finance is an incredibly nuanced word. To quote V. Buterin:

> Finance can be viewed as a set of patterns that naturally emerge in many kinds of systems that do not attempt to prevent collusion

If a large enough user base and set of vendors accept crypto, there's no need for converting to USD.

How do you handle refunds? Converting twice? Sure, charge users for it, you'll be driven out of the market by businesses who are not scared to keep a crypto wallet liquid.

That's one perspective sure. You could also say that I have to pay X% more compared to the inflated paper gains I had before.

Genuine answer: I'm holding my crypto assets until I can exchange them for the goods and services I need. I never exchange any crypto back to fiat.

I don't "invest" to make money. It's a currency. I buy it to use it. I might have to hold it for 5 years, maybe 10, maybe 30, or maybe I'll die and crypto will never be successful (a sad thought but possible).

But in the meantime I'll do what I can to improve adoption. That includes working on core protocols, improving UX for non-technical users, or writing software that helps vendors with payment integration. I also make an effort to approach business and show that there is demand for crypto payments.

This is literally the only way to make crypto successful. All this price action non-sense, and people wanting to get fiat-rich is just unproductive noise to me.

My bad, I meant centralized exchanges, not finance. Edited my comment.

> You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto?

Oh how I wish that was true.

The crypto I buy is not leveraged, it's sitting in my wallet - unlike IOUs, stocks and derivatives.

In crypto, leverage exists solely because of people who aren't doing self-custody and DeFi. They brought this upon themselves.

There are tons of vendors I actively use that accept crypto. Not as much as I'd like, but hardly no one.

But yeah, you're right, a currency nobody uses is obviously worthless. I'm attempting to drive adoption so that they CAN be exchanged for goods and services.

This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I have no problem with a crash like this, as I have no exposure to centralized * exchanges.

I also don't have illusions about price action. I don't invest into crypto to make a quick buck. I invest because I fundamentally oppose traditional finance.

There's a beautiful difference. Unlike in 2008, today

- I can transact efficiently and safely without a bank account. This is currently not possible in traditional finance

- Subsequently, none of my assets are locked. I have never stored assets in an exchange, and have no need to do so.

- Exchanges can't ask daddy government to mint coins for a bailout.

Tl;dr: exchanges and banks who think they can get away with being overleveraged, doing unbacked derivatives trading, lending without locates etc. are in for a bitter surprise. Crypto can't be gamed so easily and it shows.