On a day like today, I prefer to remember men like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison
Downvote me if you must, but as you do consider deeply the message you send when you thank men and women for engaging in war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Morrison
Downvote me if you must, but as you do consider deeply the message you send when you thank men and women for engaging in war.
So, I might think that Britain's involvement in Iraq was a mistake and should not have happened, but I would shake the hand of any British serviceman who served there and thank them for doing so.
Our service men and women are committed to fighting to better our country and the world. They trust their superiors to make the right decisions. You can disagree with the bad decisions of those superiors, but the service men and women will be there fighting regardless of whether it was right or wrong because the cost of missing the right call is too high.
Honor the troops, not the politicians.
Apologies for invoking Godwin's Law, but this is quite precisely where the analogy is applicable.
From The Twilight Zone episode "Death's Head Revisited": "They just heard you offer the apology for all the monsters of our time . We did as we were told, we functioned as ordered, we merely carried out directives from our superiors. Familiar, is it, Captain? It was the Nazi theme music at Nuremburg. The new lyrics to the Gotterdammerung. The plaintive litany of the master race as it laid dying. We did not do, others did, or someone else did it. We never even knew it was being done or We did it, but others told us to."
I now cringingly await the downvotes.
Thank you, this is the first time I've seen it argued the people enlisting realize and accept the country is likely to squander their time and risk their lives over nothing worthy of them. I could never reconcile their somehow overlooking that with the dedication they bring to the work.
The worst case isn't that soldiers' time is squandered or that they risk their lives over nothing worthy, it's that they kill and destroy needlessly, but I guess we don't really tend to come to terms with that fact as well as the people we're fighting.
For example: would we make the same distinction between the bureaucrats and policymakers in China, and the programmers who make the Great Firewall actually work? From my perspective, the person who actually carries out the action, not the one who tells them to, is the one who is responsible for it, good or bad. We don't praise politicians when a firefighter does their job; why should we blame the politicians when a soldier does theirs?
Not that I pretend to understand any of it, mind you. God knows I have no bloody clue what it's like to be in a war, so perhaps I'm entirely off-base.
(As an aside, I'm not going to comment on the moral legitimacy or lack thereof of soldiers, wars, etc., because in this context it's more a matter of personal moral beliefs than anything else.)
What bothers me is the notion that people are not responsible for their own actions.
Edit: We are, of course, assuming the existence of some objective notion of "responsibility" here, which is a point that could be debated. That said, I think I'm going off topic now, so I'll be quiet.
I believe those who hold that logic, myself included, have different expectations of the responsibilities of the soldier and the henchman. The soldier is in a strict hierarchical organization that demands its members follow orders for the organization to continue operating. Members lower in the organization are expected to begin working before they understand why, so they aren't held responsible for everything they do. The henchman may also be a part of an organization like that, but he is just another citizen, working for his organization and own betterment, and is expected to be responsible for his actions. Also, he can hardly say that his organization is working on behalf of his entire nation, as the soldier can.
edit: I should add, that this perspective does eventually reach a breaking point as time passes servicemen begin to see what the goals of their leaders are, and if they disagree with them then they may be obligated, morally or otherwise, to excuse themselves or switch sides.
Looking back at your comment I see that you're speaking of henchman and mob bosses only, but as a proxy for state leaders and the military. But my point is that people don't see them the same.
I am worried though, that when an enemy is not so clear and obvious, this line of reasoning can be used by unscrupulous leaders to further their own goals. When the threat the "enemy" poses is so vague and unclear, as is the case for the conflicts that we (the US; I am an American and can only speak for the US), have been involved with since WWII, it becomes harder to swallow that all of the deaths our soldiers cause are anything but murder and volunteering to be placed in such a position is anything but honorable. Thus, the analogy of a mob boss and a thug.
I think you'd probably object to my ignoring the totality of the situation - a murder has been committed. But what's the harm in murder as long as it's happening external to "our civilization"?
What exactly are you thanking the serviceman for if not for carrying out acts you oppose? And how are we ever going to stop politicians from starting some pretty horrendous wars if we can only thank the armies who's job is to carry out their orders, no matter how awful.
My situation may be different from yours. Perhaps I am being too selfish: I sincerely believe I would not be here today had the Canadians sat out WWI and WWII. I sincerely believe that almost everything I love about Hacking and Hacker Culture would not exist in Canada and the USA had Fascists dominated Europe. If I make a list of people in this industry that I admire, I keep coming up with ethnicities and gender preferences that would have been oppressed and/or exterminated.
My message is somewhat overwrought and emotional, but I'm very clear on how I am the recipient of the greatest gift of all.
Most of the other wars that have produced countless veterans were wars of aggression though.
I know two vietnam vets personally (I don't have that much exposure to the US other than online and from when I lived 'nearby'), and neither of them is at all proud of what happened and sincerely despise politicians and everything associated with that era. They didn't have much choice about being there though, and at the time they thought it was a good thing.
The lesson I guess is that you should not let stuff like this blind you, and you should always be on guard that you do not become someone elses tool.
Moreover, it takes courage to enter into the armed forces and be one of the people who sacrifices their personal goals to protect our civilization. So we have a holiday set aside for those people.
I don't think the wars in Vietnam or Iraq were very wise, either. But it seems out of place and immature to sound that drumbeat on this holiday, like an atheist who feels compelled to demonstrate outside of churches on Christmas.
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a791...
The world is a complex place, full of little contradictions.
Remembrance day commemorates WWI.
Soldiers who had the courage NOT to enter the forces in WWI were shot.
The aim of WWI was not to protect civilisation, it was a disagreement over the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires' role in the Balkans.It got somewhat out of hand because the various armies had not noticed that technology had moved on a little since the battle of Waterloo.
[0] - His closing speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4
Thank You to all men and women everywhere who fight for liberty... however that may be.
The common thread in your responses seems to be that politicians, not soldiers, are responsible for wars. My response to this idea is that one must not conflate "dying for freedom" with "killing for freedom". We should certainly oppose the enemies of liberty, but not by glorifying violence. It has always been, and will forever be, possible to oppose something without killing your fellow human beings. For this to succeed, however, you must have the courage to enter the fray with your arms at your sides.
I think a day like today has as much room for Norman Morrison as it does for the soldiers currently suffering and dying on our behalf. I'll remember both, if I can.