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Comment by theVirginian | Hacker News Reader

Most of these incidents just sound like guys who were genuinely trying to be nice or funny, but because anything can be seen through the lens of sexism, this woman took the opportunity to consider herself oppressed.

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I am reasonably convinced that even those trying to be nice or funny can be sexist, and in fact, can be sexist while trying to be nice or funny.

I am also convinced that sexism is a societal problem, and not the hand-wringing of a few key dudes.

There are plenty of things in Computer Science / engineering / etc that are trying to be nice/funny, but contribute to a strong culture of sexism.

Possibly. As an outsider to the industry it is hard for me to understand exactly what people mean by sexism in the STEM fields. There is no cut and dry "Women cannot apply to this position." Instead it seems to be things like comments about the dress being fun which to me seem rather ambiguous about their intentions. I wouldn't consider that to be sexist, if I said that I would intend it as a compliment but I see stuff all the time about how seemingly innocent things like that are apparently sexist. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Even the recounting of guy talking about the Facebook internship seemed to me as if the guy was trying to joke about how she must be smart, so he should apply; as if he was trying to imply that it would have been a good idea/opportunity. I didn't interpret that incident as meaning that the guy thought he should get the internship over the girl, since she most certainly wasn't the only intern at Facebook over the summer.

A good starting place is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat

... and predictably, the first comment proves her point.

You see two or three examples of comments in the article, and feel comfortable dismissing her point entirely as a result. But of course a written article has only room for two or three examples.

She wouldn't have written it if there weren't an absolute nonstop stream of this sort of crap over the course of years. A point she made abundantly clear, and an experience that would be oppressive to anyone.

(Not to mention the numerous things that can't possibly be read as "nice or funny", like having all your contributions ignored in favor of equivalent contributions from men. That makes me wonder if you actually read most of the article, or just skimmed and cherry picked a couple things that left you feeling justified in dismissing her.)

When you learn to listen to people who are struggling instead of dismissing them, your life will be better. I promise.

Be careful what arguments you make. A person writing an article based on their experiences that they believe accurate and representative does not automatically make it so on both counts.

I did read that part. She claims her contributions were equivalent and I believe that they could have been, but where is the proof of that? If some independent party were to back up that claim with facts I would feel more comfortable supporting her point. I'm not denying that sexism exists, just making the point that I didn't like this article because I don't think it successfully makes its point.

Hopefully you can understand that intent isn't everything?

Being considerate of others isn't just saying "pshht i didn't mean anything by it!" it's actually thinking about how other people might react in the circumstances they've been put in.

You can call sexism a lens, but it might also help to understand the experiences others have lived (from their POV, not yours) to see why it's a lens that others are brought to employing.

Your lens theory is nice, but I found found living in a transgender commune (yep, that's another story) insufferable in terms of second guessing every my comment or impulse. Persecution complexes are just not sustainable in promoting harmonius cross-communities, and at some point the person subject to sexism and oppression has to be prepared to expect some of the heat. It's simply the world we've inherited, and we can't expect it to magically change.

On the positive, things are changing. I see this issue get talked about a lot on here now, and there's a greater dialogue in the culture about it. It will take some time ...

But everyone is subject to that. Humans are incredibly imperfect social beings - and teenagers and young adults are particularly good at not thinking through what they say. It doesn't mean people are trying to be sexist.

Surely we can agree that discrimination is not only about intent.

And, again, if you make someone else feel bad is it the right thing to do to go "oh, well i didn't mean to make you feel bad, so you shouldn't feel that way."

Perhaps, but there certainly are some incidents which are ambiguous. I fear that by taking that mindset we will create an environment where people have more incentive to not speak to or interact with women because they might get in trouble for an action that was either careless or consciously intended not to be sexist but gets twisted around and made to look that way. I certainly think that saying something like "you are less capable because you are a woman" is sexist but saying something like "your dress is fun" does not unambiguously imply that it was a sexual advance. Why can't it just be a nice unthreatening comment?

> people have more incentive to not speak to or interact with women because they might get in trouble for an action that was either careless or consciously intended not to be sexist but gets twisted around and made to look that way

This is how I feel about most tech gatherings now, even online discussions (I'm actually a bit nervous about this comment). Any interaction I have with a woman in tech, or any discussion about women in tech that I might participate in, has the potential for career-threatening blowback. So far I've been following the War Games strategy: "The only way to win, is not to play." But that doesn't feel great either, because now I'm consciously avoiding people who otherwise might have been great to have a conversation with.

The worst part is, I didn't have that problem until the whole women in tech thing was dragged into the light. I'm not saying that shouldn't have happened: it's obvious by now that there are problems that need solving. There have been consequences, however, of which I'm not sure the more vocal members of this movement are cognizant.

Okay, it's great that you've got concerns about how guys feel, but shouldn't we equally consider how women in the field feel too?

I had female friends with whom i took CS classes who all had stories about guys who would do super weird things like start talking badly about them to others or refusing to cooperate with them on class projects after it being made clear that there was no romantic interest.

Nit picking individual comments or trying to negate how people feel about the circumstances they find themselves in isn't really addressing their concerns is it?

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