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Comment by bsdetector | Hacker News Reader

> When I'm supposed to watch my words, I tend to say the wrong ones.

No kidding. Volunteering that he was in Al Qaeda territory... to take pictures of plants. Saying he's a nihilist. Suggesting that the levees in New Orleans might break again while he's visiting. Having Jewish ancestry, but denying being Jewish because not religious.

Also appears he was also traveling alone to many of these places, without any business reason. Entering the US through Canada without having business in Canada sounds like somebody trying to come in a back door, and being nervous to boot.

Even from this one side of the story I'd say the border patrol did their job just fine. I wouldn't have let him into the country in that story.

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I think you're wrong, and I'm sorry that people like you are the ones working on the border. He was obviously travelling all around the world sight-seeing. He had tons of proof of that. The border patrol were paranoid and idiotic. Keeping random people out who "seem" like they might be dangerous is not going to prevent any problems. It's just going to make the rest of the world hate us more.

"He was obviously travelling all around the world sight-seeing"

This is not so obvious. This is one of the possible points of view, of course.

"He had tons of proof of that"

For example? I'm not sure other countries stamp a reason for entry like the US, it's usually an entry stamp for anything and that's it.

I'm also sympathetic to the author, but he was extremely naive. The border control doesn't want to hear about nice food or nice wildlife or other blah blah blah. Direct and cooled down answers will do. "On Vacation" is fine.

It's clear his answers (and passport stamps) rang a ton of bells.

> The border control doesn't want to hear about nice food or nice wildlife or other blah blah blah. Direct and cooled down answers will do. "On Vacation" is fine.

This is a horrible way to greet people to come visit and spend money in your country.

My experiences traveling abroad are that most of the other countries have agents that don't make you feel like you are a burden or threat. Imagine actually feeling welcomed when you visit a lush vacation spot.

Why don't border control want to hear the details of a person's travel history? It would seem naive to me to try to hide details that could help you.

This deserves a better explaining.

Depending on the details, yes, it's better, like, "oh, I transited through Malaysia when leaving Singapore"

But remember "anything you say can and will be used against you", so don't go into details unless needed.

And to be honest, someone saying they traveled there because of the Botany, they're either a plant expert or this can be felt as they're hiding something.

So his crack about levees didn't in anyway color or piss off the border patrol? I mean when I'm entering a country, I too like to crack wise about their recent national tragedies to get into the border officer's good graces. He should have followed that up by saying he was taking the train because he heard planes tend to fly into buildings here.

Sorry, but it sounds like this guy is a bit of an idiot who didn't help his case, even if the border patrol was overly critical. Trust me, I'm no fan of the TSA or their "SPOT" nonsense, but if I said the things he said, I would expect to get denied just out of spite.

The Border agents are paid to be paranoid.

You don't talk to police like you talk to a friend -- you keep the scope of the conversation limited to the question asked. You don't introduce the topic of Al-Qaeda. You don't go into political/religous discussions. Once you do that, you're putting the border agent/cop in a position where he needs to apply subjective judgement. You avoid that by not inserting unrelated noise into the conversation.

This isn't a US issue -- it's a clueless person issue.

That's a horrible way to greet visitors - or to make them feel like they need to research the police before visiting a country.

Yes, it is.

It's an issue everywhere there are cops and politics. Every country has some goofy immigration thing to deal with. If you travel the world and are ignorant of the countries you visit, you'll run into trouble.

For example: Canada is probably one of the most chilled-out countries in the world. Nice place, friendly people, no kafka-factor -- Unless you're travelling with a party of people, and somebody was convicted of DWI a decade ago. That individual cannot enter Canada without a visa. Kind of sucks when you're in a car trying to cross one of the smaller St. Lawrence river crossings -- you're stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Can I invoke Poe's Law here - I have no idea whether your are being serious or not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Really? A satire or what? If it is not a satire then I believe people are afraid of their shadows over there in the US. Terrorism is winning a landslide. Hey guys please, don't br islamaphobic. Nobody is trying to bomb inside out US or Israel. People have their own problems and concerns over the world and most of the time it is not orbiting you.

So he should have manufactured a story instead of just telling the truth? What?

I dont get the Jewish part, would it make a difference if he claims that he's jewish ?

The border patrol knew he was part Jewish, and that being the case, asked him why he went to country that was hostile to Jews, and he denied being Jewish. It's not about ethnicity, it's about telling the agents something they know is not accurate.

This part, like the whole story, was a miscommunication. A better answer would be something like "Well I only have Jewish ancestry from one grandparent so I didn't think that would be a problem".

Judaism has traditionally defined Jewishness as being matrilineal; i.e. you're Jewish if your mother is Jewish. Reform Judaism accepts bilineal ancestry, but on the condition that one has been raised as a Jew.

So, yes, he was completely right to deny being Jewish.

You expect every border patrol agent to know this?

If the border patrol agents use a person's presumed Jewishness as part of their rationale to deny them entry, they should indeed know what they're talking about. It's not something that they were forced to deal with; it was a reason they manufactured themselves (out of whole cloth, as it so happens).

Not being familiar with religious customs is not a crime, but then you shouldn't use your ignorance to adjudicate a case.

The agent found it odd that someone with a Jewish name would visit those countries. Customs, practices, etc are utterly irrelevant.

Lohman/Lohmann was originally a German name [1] (and Lohmann is still very common in Germany).

[1] "Loh"/"Lohe" is an old German word for wood/forest. See also the many German place names containing "loh(e)", such as Gütersloh or Dortmund-Loh.

Most contemporary Ashkenazi Jewish names are German in origin.

If his dad was of Jewish ethnicity he should just have said he was part Jewish but did not identify with the religion.

His father wasn't Jewish, either.

His grandfather was, so he has Jewish ancestry, which is enough for people in some parts of the world to consider him Jewish. (Even though he may not be Jewish in the eyes of the actual religion, it's not relevant.)

Do you really understand how preposterous the whole construction is? He is a Dutch citizen, with a Dutch passport, and a Dutch name. So, because he has a grandfather who is a Jew, that's supposedly a reason to deny him entry (according to the comment above, anyway) because it's presumably suspicious that he was in an area of the world that's unfriendly to Jews, even though nobody there has reason to believe that he's one. So, from that they construe some sort of reasoning that he could be a crypto-fundamentalist Muslim, apparently.

In reality, he doesn't think of himself as a Jew nor does anybody else, except the jokers that the US federal government apparently hires for these kinds of jobs (and that only after him volunteering that information), so there's no reason for him to have any fears that he might be exposed to antisemitic reactions. How would a hypothetical al Qaeda agent even learn that he has a Jewish grandfather?

Somebody's trying really hard to find a justification for stupid behavior by US agents that doesn't meet any evidentiary standards other than cover-your-ass paranoia.

I never said I personally thought it it was a valid reason to deny him entry, thus my reference to "people in some parts of the world"...

I actually think it's ridiculous, and sad...

Having a Jewish father doesn't make you Jewish. Only people who have Jewish mothers or those who convert to Judaism are considered Jewish. If the agent thought he was being inaccurate then the agent was just being ignorant.

Try telling that to an Al Qaeda extremist! Which, by the way, is what the border agent was getting at.

I'm pretty sure someone involved in fighting Judaism would have a basic understanding of how it spreads. What a weird comment.

Well then the question is does he look jewish? It's not like he'll talk about his ancestry to everyone around, or give everyone his passport.

Given that Jewishness is 'inherited' maternally, he's actually not Jewish. He is not a follower of the Jewish religion and even Jews would not consider him a Jew. Why would he say otherwise?

Agree. It seems to me that the guy is just a poor communicator at this type of thing. He didn't lie, but he could have had better answers.

Why classification by "race" or "ethnicity" isn't considered as racism?

I can't tell if you're joking or not?

Regardless, if you'd asked him to send the suspect to Guantanamo Bay he would probably agree (and thank you as he should have thought about that first).

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