Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafkaesque#Legacy

There is no strict rule of law. The border guards' discretionary (arbitrary) power is an example of that. That applies on several levels. Policies & laws are not governed by higher laws/constitutions so the laws & policies themselves are discretionary & arbitrary. Basic principles like habeas corpus (right to be judged by a judge) and presumption of innocence don't apply. This is why 'privilege, not a right' is the approach.

I think most of the rest is what we get when the basics aren't there. Equality before the law doesn't really apply when there is no rule of law so blatant discrimination is the norm with policies for different nationalities & cultural/ethnic/racial groups. Freedoms are profoundly violated by visa restrictions everywhere, almost by definition. If your visa is tied to your job or your profession, you are a lot less free. That kind of limit on freedom would be considered draconian if applied in other cases.

When a country restricts immigrants' permission to work in certain professions or live in certain areas, we don't think twice about it. Up until the modern era Jews in Europe were restricted in such a way. Those were controversially oppressive laws even in the context of 17th center Czarist Russia/Eastern Europe.

Anyway, to make lemonade from these experiences I think this should remind us how important basic principles of justice are. We need to protect them and make sure they don't lose ground. It's a horrible, naked feeling when you realize that they don't apply and the guy in the stupid hat has arbitrary power over you.

1) Did you abandon your green card app?

2) How did you move your stuff out if you couldn't get back into the US again? Were the Canadians mean to you or were they understanding?

3) If you don't mind giving some info, I'm curious what motivated your family to leave?

For us, the big reasons are we want to be close to family. Neither of us (myself or my wife) have found a job in our home country yet (have good jobs in the US) .. and I'm not doing any trips back to do job hunting because I fear I will get into the same situation as you :( So we are planning to go back home without jobs and live off of savings for the next few months. Tough beans but minimizes the chances of immigration screw ups.

Best of luck!!

This phrase caught my eye. Based on this, you probably thought that you could leave and enter the US at will. Ironically, during this phase of the green card process (i.e. right after the I-485 is filed and awaiting final processing for denial or a GC in the mail), my understanding is that you'll have more difficulty entering and leaving the country without special dispensation (called Advance Parole).

Assuming that your company lawyers handled your green card application, I'm surprised they didn't apply for Advance Parole for you at the same time as filing the I-485. That would have saved you a bunch of hassle, regardless of whether you quit the company or not.

IANAL and all that, but I think this explains why they were so hostile. You didn't follow their strict procedures for these types of things. Of course, they're not going to tell you this during an interrogation, but this may have helped.

I've tried to do this many, many times, and the rules specifically say you can't just cross a land border to Canada (or Mexico), then come back again.

If you could, everyone would get their 90 day visa waiver, and just hop the border for a few hours then come back and get 90 days fresh.

Last time, I flew to the Bahamas for a week, then came back, no problem.

But for example, there used to be some contention with Brazilians entering Europe through Spain (Madrid specifically)

And there have been cases of Americans being denied entry in Europe even in friendly countries like Ireland

They are called "refugee camps". And Australia has a reasonably high refugee intake. Unlike most countries, though, Australia resettles most of their refugees, so they aren't classified as "refugees" anymore. It's a pain finding the numbers, since everyone wants to talk about "refugees per head of population". There's hundreds of thousands of former refugees with PR or citizenship who aren't counting in Australia's "refugee population", because they've actually been resettled.

Though you'd be perfectly justified in pointing out that Abbott cut the refugee intake, quite dramatically. Or that beating up on "boat people" was just making them a scapegoat, trying to placate the wider concern about overpopulation and immigration in general (which politicians won't touch, because the Treasury Intergenerational Report says Australia needs lots of young immigrants to keep the economy going as the baby boomers start going gaga).

Meh, any Western hand-wringing about the evils of Anglophones has to be counter-balanced with the fact that net migration to those "evil" countries continues at a brisk pace, often illegally.

I now live in the US. Before coming to US I visited many European countries. At the border of all those European countries I was treated as a criminal. I waited very long hours while people in front of me holding same kind of passports as me and then myself were interrogated like in a police interrogation. I missed connections because of those interrogations. In one case when I did make the connection, I heard the pilot of the plane speaking to passengers about how the delay was caused because of waiting for people of my nationality. Even people associated with people of my nationality were considered suspicious. A friend of mine was married to a Canadian man who had the same name as a famous American actor. When they tried to go together to one European country, that man was also interrogated for 2 hours by the border police because they thought his passport was fake. I was once traveling via train from European country A to European country B. I happened to be in a cabin with a man from country B. The border police of country B (this was before Schengen) took him outside the train and interrogated him for 30 minutes because they thought his passport was fake. He had a pocketful of documents, bank cards, credit cards, phone numbers of his family members etc. and the border police still were suspicious. I was so used to the long lines and humiliation that I thought they were normal for any border crossing.

Then I traveled to US. Imagine my surprise when I got off the plane, walked a long corridor, passed by a drug detection dog, got into a huge room with many passport control booths, in 5 minutes found myself in one of them, the immigration officer asked me where I was going and what was the goal of my trip then stamped my passport and I-94 and I was done. Even if I didn't go anywhere from there, the trip was already a success. It made me feel like a human. In the time since then I have seen the checks in many European countries improve and in the meantime US has added the annoying process of fingerprinting, but in my view US border control still offers better human experience compared to European countries. I was once crossing the border from Canada to US and there was this old woman trying to get into US with an expired (like 30 years old) British passport. The border agents still found a way to let her in. Since Schengen she probably would be let into other European countries but I am sure before Schengen she wouldn't be able to go anywhere.

I know that there are people who have negative experiences while trying to get into US as there are negative experiences for people trying to go anywhere, but I think most of the noise associated with them is unjustified and if US border control need improvements other countries need them even more.

We are a very desirable destination because of our standard of living and political and economic freedom. We can't just open our doors or we would be flooded and we barely have enough water for our current population in many of our southern cities.

Australian's as a whole do not want to reward people smugglers or see kids drowning when their parents try and queue jump their way into the country on overcrowded leaky boats. Detention centres aren't a very humane way to deal with the problem and criticism is warranted but perhaps we should direct a bit more attention to the countries these people are escaping and the countries they transit.

> At least until recently people would still go bankrupt because of medical emergencies.

On the flip side, they get the long term care they need earlier and more reliably. They can also get this care based on medical advice as opposed to political opinions. There is a reason I moved from Canada to the US for health care, and I've paid less for that care here in the US.

> People have to save for lifetime to send their children to collage.

Depends on where you want to send them. Send your children to MIT and see what you have to pay.

> Politics is populistic.

It's that way in other countries as well. You just tend to hear more about it because it's the US.

> The legal system is unjust in some areas (e.g. legal defense against bogus charges can drive you into bankruptcy).

Again, this can happen anywhere, and it the exception rather than the rule.

> Immigration decisions are arbitrary and unpredictable.

Immigration? Sure. We still let in more than most countries (every other country?). Or are you talking about border entry?

> Business has a large(r) influence in the government.

Larger? Hardly. Just as large. Do not think for a moment that large companies aren't entrenched in other governments as well.

Really, what it comes down to is this:

> If you are poor, most of the times you basic needs are still covered

And that's true in the US as well. Yes, not all parts of the US are equal. We have 50 states, all with their own rules and regulations that are completely different from one another.

Of course it is.

In all of the below measures, the US is not at all comparable to Developed countries, and sits squarely within Developing countries.

infant mortality, child poverty, child health and safety, life expectancy at birth, healthy life expectancy, rate of obesity, disability-adjusted life years, doctors per 1000 people, deaths from treatable conditions, rate of mental health disorders, rate of drug abuse, rate of prescription drug use, incarceration rate, rate of assaults, rate of homicides, income inequality, wealth inequality, and economic mobility.

Isn't lying to those people a really bad idea?

I am a hard line atheist anti-idealist that don't make that much difference between islamists, socialists and astrology readers. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning" as in convincing, not learning.)

Politically, I think the US left is as crazy as the US Fox right.

The point is, there are subjects where I'm less of a laid back "live and let live"-guy -- but it is hard to be more unlikely as a dangerous criminal or terrorist than me. Still, I would be nervous entering the US borders by now.

From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It is hard to scale their solutions to US?

Edit: ma2rten, I answered that first half to swombat 40+ minutes before you wrote. See "There is a serious position to have"

For reference - white US-born citizen (well, from a california perspective); never been in trouble.

Just wondering why you didn't enter Canada with your Canadian passport then?

I hope he doesn't. People need to stop coming here, stop doing business here, otherwise there will be no perceived need to change. The Constitution and just plain decency have not proven enough to stop this shit.

Treat us like the backwater shithole that we, by our actions, are aspiring to be. Then maybe we'll change. Otherwise you may as well welcome your new overlords.

Just asking you to consider your adjectives more thoroughly before writing them.

When I got my Canadian work visa the one point that the immigration agent specifically highlighted on the visa paperwork was that I wasn't permitted to attend university while I was here.

Damn foreigners coming here to get subsidized education? Not sure why it was such a big deal for them.

It's not just American border cops. Like the parent poster, I had bad experience entering Canada. I truthfully told the border agents I was a journalist arriving to speak at an Internet law conference at the University of Ottawa's law school, but I didn't ask the conference organizers for a written invitation and therefore couldn't produce one.

The Canadian border guards took me to a side room and interrogated me what seemed like an hour. It was an unpleasant experience, especially given the uncertainty about whether I'd return home or be able to enter the country or be banned from entry for a period of time. My now-spouse was living in Canada at the time, so the last option would be the worst. They did make a pretense of looking on the school's web site for the conference, but (from what I could glimpse) were looking at the French version, not the English version where the conference was actually listed. Or maybe they found it and were intentionally playing dumb.

Eventually I was admitted. Ironically, the conference was sponsored by the Canadian government!

So when they reject him, there is really only a couple of acceptable explanations that they can give, regardless of the truth, they aren't going to say "we just don't like your attitude" they're going to say "it looks like you run with some countries that we don't like." Maybe I've been re-educated or programmed by Our System, but I simply cannot fathom uttering 'al qaeda' at a border crossing just like 99+% of us wouldn't consider talking about 'bombs' or 'explosives' while in the TSA lines at the airport. Think of it as a pass/fail IQ test and from the sound of it, he failed. Probably doesn't make nearly as interesting an article to read though.

The Democrat party benefits greatly from illegal immigration from Mexico, so they refuse to do anything whatsoever to control that flow. That's great for Democrats to win elections and all, but it creates a backlash against immigration in general. Ironically, the most controllable area of immigration, that of those actually following the visa process suffer the most from that backlash.

I think the Navaho and others have been somewhat annoyed by all the pesky foreigners with their exotic christian outlook.

There've always been lots of people who would say that the next wave of immigrants is unneeded, and unwanted. No matter how successful they turned out to be.

So whats happened is that immigration now has to account for higher numbers they can't control. The people who actually come through the system are at a disadvantage because their numbers can actually be regulated whereas undocumented migrants can't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

You've met people you took an instant dislike to - maybe its their hyper-vigilant appearanch; maybe they involuntarily smile at everything you say making you think they know something you don't know. Things like that can get you turned away at the border.

It is a real shame, as you imply. American people have done incredible things which contribute to the world in general in a positive way, and the country its self is undoubtedly spectacular and beautiful. But the political atmosphere, the general fear, and the resulting attitudes are a total bar to me. These days I even worry about using US internet services since merely doing so can put me in the sights of US authorities and their insane legal system and laws. Worse still, my own government literally bend over for the US government.

In short, a great people are strangling them selves.

Yoda is always the coolest security guard!

The agents in front were often somewhat rude; in the back there was a sort of waiting room (with often 20 or so people in chairs) and a front desk where the agents would literary SHOUT at the people called up in front of them. It was not a private interview room (though presumably those were available as well). We were silently horrified during the 10 minutes or so they were shouting and badgering a cringing 60 year old Greek (I think?) man with poor English who apparently had something related to child support out of order in his documents.

There's something very hard to shake about the feeling you get when you are obliged to act polite & unconcerned to petty officials like these when you are inwardly seething with rage.

We left the US in 2006, and still go back on occasion (parents, friends, etc. are still there!), though the last time was now a few years ago. We still dread the immigration experience, though; it's likely to be fine (we don't make stupid mistakes about what we say, and we fake friendliness well), but it always feels like somehow, something will go wrong.

We've were once detained for 45 minutes or so at the English border as well, driving up from France -- we made the mistake of entering while pregnant without being prepared for their suspicion (NHS leeches!) -- but while it was frustrating to be stopped & questioned, they were impeccably polite and kind to us (though they did put a warning in my wife's passport without a word to us... we didn't notice until the next trip through the UK, when we were questioned about that).

My other developer friends seem to have similar, though not quite as advanced, feelings about the US. When I mention not wanting to go to the US I get plenty of "yeah, I don't blame you" responses.

1) I'm afraid some ignorant/overzealous border guard will ask about all the startup events, conferences, hackathons etc that im going to and deciding that im looking to 'work' here, regardless of that being untrue.

2) There's no rules! There's only guidelines! Buy a $2000 ticket to come over to visit? No guarantee you'll be let in, its all completely arbitary and totally up to however bad a day the boarder guard is having. Turns every visit into a (low chance) potential nightmare. It's stressful, doubly so when the attitude you always face is 'prove to me your're not a danger to the US'

3) I have an 'interesting' recent history, did a bunch of travelling over the last year, including through Iran and a bunch of former soviet states, and a few uncommon asian countries. Again, if i get a border guard having a bad day I could easily end up like the OP

I hate the borders, they are arrogant, arbitrary, stressful and unpleasant, and will always make me think twice about future US visits.

Several nice people from the U.S. have had a bad time as a result, and it made me reconsider - I don't think "an eye for an eye" is such a great thing.

If only we could only treat people with power to change things that way :) - but someone traveling is already not a standard U.S. citizen and probably more open by default.

Edit: To expand, in the UK it used to be as easy as writing a letter explaining why you needed a second (maybe it still is; haven't tried for a while). I've also got a third passport, from a different country, but so far not needed it.

Maybe they will allow it for Arab countries and US too if this goes on.

But nobody saw it because it was killed.

Next time figure out why, maybe banned domain, and work around it or accept that the story will be lost.

Most US citizens (in the north-east, at least) don't even think about terrorism post-9/11.

Our representatives are making these kinds of decisions for (most of) us and we're just along for the ride.

Border officer didn't want you to take a car with a wrong/likely-illegal registration across the border - instead took some time and effort to clarify the details and then allowed you to continue.

In my mind that officer was doing their job well, and acted rather generously in your favour.

Do you mind on telling us why (the upsides, the downsides...)? Thank you! :)

One of the most bigoted people I've ever met got a job with the CBP after a very brief and unsuccessful stint in the Army where he'd publicly announced to everyone that he was going to Afghanistan to 'kill towelheads'.

Well, how about having solid reasons for detaining someone, something better than "Who takes a coat to the U.S. in the summer?" And speaking about attitude, be polite at least until you have enough incriminating evidence! Just to offer an example from the article itself - shouting at the drug-smuggler was OK in my book, whereas "what the hell were you doing in Yemen" was not.

Even if you don't have multiple citizenship, it should probably be standard practice to get a fresh, stamp-less passport if you're planning on travelling to the US or any such hostile country.

These stories get everybody riled up but in reality are a tiny fraction of people who enter. I have a story too - when I was visiting Amsterdam I had the most rough body search I have experienced when traveling. Maybe I should never visit there again to see all if the rich culture and friendly people? That'll show 'em! My wife was called into the back room on our way to Aspen because her bag triggered some false alarm. Cross that place off my list, I'm never going skiing there again!

His crack about a major tragedy (levees breaking) probably is what did him in.