Comment by lingoberry | Hacker News Reader

Comment by lingoberry | Hacker News Reader

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Something similar happened to me recently. I voluntarily left my job at a US employer, planning to move back home (to Sweden). But first I wanted to spend some time preparing for the move and waiting for my wife to wrap things up. The rules say you have to leave the country the last day of work, so I left for Canada to stay with a friend, and planned to come back on the visa waiver program. I consulted with the company's immigration lawyers and they said this shouldn't be a problem. The US border agents thought differently. After being held and interrogated for 4 hours like a criminal, they concluded that I was lying and they thought I would try to illegally immigrate to the US, because I didn't have enough financial ties to my home country. I had a green card on the way when I quit my job so why wouldn't I just stay if I wanted to immigrate so badly? They didn't care about that or anything else I said. I was sent back into Canada with most of my belongings still being in the US. "Entering the US is a privilege, not a right" I was told. Once you get denied entry it is very difficult to get in again, and you need a visa etc. I decided it was just easier to fly home at that point.

I realize now that I was naive, and many of you would probably say it was my own fault. I thought that if I did something that is not against the rules, things would be fine. Afterwards I found out though that entry into the US is completely the discretion of the border guards. Even if you are legally following the rules, they can deny you on a whim. In this case, I believe they thought I was taking advantage by just leaving the US for a few days and coming back. Which is a valid concern I guess, but if that's so, why wouldn't they put a time limit on how long you have to be away? I think part of my naivety comes from my trusting upbringing in a rural part of a small country.

Either way, it was not the best end to my 5 years in the US, and I doubt I'll be going back anytime soon. This experience just cemented once more that the US is not a country I wish to live in permanently, and have my kids grow up in.

There are all sorts of things about immigration laws & policies that violate our sense of correctness or justice. All sorts of basic principles don't apply.

There is no strict rule of law. The border guards' discretionary (arbitrary) power is an example of that. That applies on several levels. Policies & laws are not governed by higher laws/constitutions so the laws & policies themselves are discretionary & arbitrary. Basic principles like habeas corpus (right to be judged by a judge) and presumption of innocence don't apply. This is why 'privilege, not a right' is the approach.

I think most of the rest is what we get when the basics aren't there. Equality before the law doesn't really apply when there is no rule of law so blatant discrimination is the norm with policies for different nationalities & cultural/ethnic/racial groups. Freedoms are profoundly violated by visa restrictions everywhere, almost by definition. If your visa is tied to your job or your profession, you are a lot less free. That kind of limit on freedom would be considered draconian if applied in other cases.

When a country restricts immigrants' permission to work in certain professions or live in certain areas, we don't think twice about it. Up until the modern era Jews in Europe were restricted in such a way. Those were controversially oppressive laws even in the context of 17th center Czarist Russia/Eastern Europe.

Anyway, to make lemonade from these experiences I think this should remind us how important basic principles of justice are. We need to protect them and make sure they don't lose ground. It's a horrible, naked feeling when you realize that they don't apply and the guy in the stupid hat has arbitrary power over you.

"There is no strict rule of law."

That says it all. And also that, is the main factor for corruption (anytime anywhere).

>>I had a green card on the way when I quit my job so why wouldn't I just stay if I wanted to immigrate so badly?

This phrase caught my eye. Based on this, you probably thought that you could leave and enter the US at will. Ironically, during this phase of the green card process (i.e. right after the I-485 is filed and awaiting final processing for denial or a GC in the mail), my understanding is that you'll have more difficulty entering and leaving the country without special dispensation (called Advance Parole).

Assuming that your company lawyers handled your green card application, I'm surprised they didn't apply for Advance Parole for you at the same time as filing the I-485. That would have saved you a bunch of hassle, regardless of whether you quit the company or not.

IANAL and all that, but I think this explains why they were so hostile. You didn't follow their strict procedures for these types of things. Of course, they're not going to tell you this during an interrogation, but this may have helped.

I hadn't considered that possibility. I gave over a month notice before I left to my company as well as the immigration lawyers, but it's possible that my application was still in the system somehow.

Eep! I might be in a similar situation shortly. A couple of quick questions, if you don't mind?

1) Did you abandon your green card app?

2) How did you move your stuff out if you couldn't get back into the US again? Were the Canadians mean to you or were they understanding?

3) If you don't mind giving some info, I'm curious what motivated your family to leave?

For us, the big reasons are we want to be close to family. Neither of us (myself or my wife) have found a job in our home country yet (have good jobs in the US) .. and I'm not doing any trips back to do job hunting because I fear I will get into the same situation as you :( So we are planning to go back home without jobs and live off of savings for the next few months. Tough beans but minimizes the chances of immigration screw ups.

Best of luck!!

Sure, no problem 1) Yes, I was on track for a green card within a year or two, but when I resigned I it was abandoned 2) I had some very nice friends who brought me some bags before I left Canada 3) The Canadian side of the border was immensely nicer. They tried to give advice, and let me back in after I explained what happened. The biggest difference is their demeanor. While the US people were extremely hostile from the start, the Canadian counterparts were nice and courteous. Talking to US officials was like being in a real interrogation, after this I'm much more sympathetic and get very uncomfortable watching people get interrogated on TV cop dramas etc... 3) Many reasons. Let me just also mention that we don't have children yet. Firstly, we felt our life would be better in Sweden in terms of work-life balance and family life. Especially having a family is much easier with longer vacations, maternity/paternity leave, heavily subsidized child care, socialized healthcare and a general safety net if anything goes wrong. Secondly, we're both immigrants, her being Chinese, so immigration would keep being a problem for many years, more so for her I think. Third, just like you, I have family and friends back home, which also adds a safety net, and of course I've missed them a great deal. Fourth, we're looking forward to doing traveling in Europe, there's just more to see in a smaller area, but that's not a major reason :).

All that said, we both had great jobs, earning probably 50% more than for the same job back home, while cost of living is lower in the US, and we don't have jobs lined up. The US is just great for having a career, and there are more numerous and interesting jobs in our fields, so it's not easy leaving that behind.

Kafkaesque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafkaesque#Legacy

> so I left for Canada to stay with a friend, and planned to come back on the visa waiver program.

I've tried to do this many, many times, and the rules specifically say you can't just cross a land border to Canada (or Mexico), then come back again.

If you could, everyone would get their 90 day visa waiver, and just hop the border for a few hours then come back and get 90 days fresh.

Last time, I flew to the Bahamas for a week, then came back, no problem.

So the logic goes something like this: something bad happened to me once in country X. Therefore, I will not go back to country X. So, if something bad happens to you in Sweden, say a policeman is rude to you, or something like that, will you leave Sweden because of it ?

Where did I say this is the only reason? I had a great time in the US, and there are plenty of great things about it, but I've had enough bad experiences with various parts of society and government that the upsides of living in the US as opposed to my country is nil. Since I have no family in the US, the decision to move back, while not easy, was the right thing to do.

Edit: as for not returning to visit, I'm not exactly looking forward to being interrogated every time I try to enter, and possibly denied entry again, which I have read in many places will likely happen.

Simply the risk that the time and money you spent on the visit may be wasted, is likely to deter a lot of potential visitors that have other options open to them.

> So, if something bad happens to you in Sweden, say a policeman is rude to you, or something like that, will you leave Sweden because of it ?

No. But if police officers are routinely rude to me, and if I see many reports of officers killing people and beating people - even people who pose no risk to those officers - then I might start thinking about where I live.

What is considered rude from a police officer in Europe is when he does not address you properly.

What is considered rude from a police officer in the US is when they shot you without warning (with a warning, it's normal).

They are lots of places I would love to visit in the US, but current policies are keeping me out (also: beard).

No, the logic goes like this: in "country X", this type of arrogant behavior is supported by the political background, while in "Sweden", there's no polical support for policeman rudeness. This is therefore a perfectly valid reason not to visit "country X".

Ok, but Sweden has its own problems, no? Didn't they have massive riots recently? So, let's rephrase

country X has political support for some sort of bad thing Y, therefore I will never visit country X.

Didn't they have massive riots recently

They where "massive" by Swedish standards, but tiny by any international standard you may care to use. Certainly much much smaller than riots that have happened recently in many other European countries

Every place has problems. E.g. Sweden is consensus oriented and has only one officially accepted opinion at a time, so much stuff just can't be discussed. This along with being a small duck pond (the elites, media etc generally know each others) means that problems might be a long time being corrected.

What makes you think these are isolated experiences? Yes, the article and the parent comment each highlight a specific case, but as someone who's had to re-enter the US multiple times in the past 2 years I can vouch that these are not isolated incidences.

62 million international tourists visited the United States last year and this number has grown over 2011. This makes me think that on average border policy is such that it is possible to navigate the system and not give up on entering the U.S. for good. Having said that, it's clearly regrettable when border agents behave inappropriately

But it's not only the border agents. The same can be said for example about consulate officers when deciding to give or decline a visa. It's the same attitude, you are considered a future felon unless proven otherwise, you are fingerprinted even if it is not known yet if you'll ever step on US soil or not, you are interviewed like a convict that is to be amnestied out of jail, and whatnot. I mean - hey, I'm just predisposed to visit your country as your Hollywood makes a pretty damn good job promoting it, and I have more than enough money to fund my visit there - that's all the info I consider reasonable to provide you with. And you know what? That's all it was necessary to visit other places like Australia, Iceland or China!

Having a policeman being rude to you is not even in the same order of magnitude as being denied entry to a country.

I don't even think it is about being denied entry. Its about how one is denied entry and the conduct of the officials.

That is a bad logic. Being deported from entering a country because you have been visited any place arounf the world is not getting mobbed by a rude officer. It is mobning at the behest of the whole US citizens.

You've obviously never had a run in with Customs, have you? Some countries are far worse than others; those that are, aren't worth going back to, IMO.

This is not a logical issue. It's an emotional one. So, it depends on the person. Wouldn't you held anything against a country if that's country's border control detained you, denied the services you paid for, denied the properties you have in the country, treated you like a sub-human? Would you try to enter that country again? Try, just try to be empathetic...

It's also a financial and practical issue. Being refused entry at the border can mean significant costs in non-refundable bookings and re-booking of flights. Not to mention the fact that you just wasted some very valuable vacation days (which to many people are worth more than the money they represent).

I know I don't want to waste my vacation days playing bureaucratic Russian roulette when I could spend them in any one of the dozens countries that will happily let me visit with a minimum of fuss.

I agree with you and I am empathetic, but somehow 67 million international tourists manage to enter the U.S. per year, according to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

so perhaps, my advice is, don't overreact.

Rather than directing your "advice" to the victims, direct it to the US immigration officers.

There is no doubt that the U.S. immigration system is broken and needs fixing, this is a complicated political issue that is currently being debated in Congress. Conditional on this unfortunate reality, which we can't immediately change, my advice is not to over-react.

Don't deflect blame onto the system, either. I will accept many excuses for many job choices. I will not accept any excuses for being paid to do this kind of evil. If their behavior were mandated by immigration law (and it's not), they would still be 100% culpable.

The only immigration debate going on in Congress is undocumented workers and increasing visas for a select class of people.

As far as tourists and non-immigrant visas are concerned there is no debate and it's business as usual.

True, but the onerous nature of the experience has impacted the popularity of the US as a tourist destination.

"The United States' share of the total travel market is down, to 11.2 percent in 2010 from 17.3 percent in 2000"

"There were also big declines in the same period in travel from France (down 23.2 percent), Brazil (down 20.3 percent), Germany (down 19.2 percent) and Japan (down 5.8 percent)."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/business/with-brand-usa-us...

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