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Comment by TuringNYC | Hacker News Reader

I talk to a lot of people in the Metro NY area. One problem here is -- if you need to commute into Manhattan (job center) -- it demands a certain salary, below which commuting in is a net-loss. Rent is $2000/mo. If you have a family and cannot have multiple roommates, you might be looking at $4000/mo.

"if you cannot afford it, stop complainingb and live elsehwere" they say...sure...but a commuter train into Manhattan can run you $30-50/day. Add in parking at the commuter train station and you're down about $60 or more a day.

Now suppose you eke out some net saving -- you've unqualified yourself from medicaid health insurance now. Your net savings may not even pay for your medical deductible.

There are a lot of reasons to just not bother unless the salary can get beyond all these hurdles.

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Your theory is that some people don't find it financially worthwhile to work in NYC, so therefore they decide to just give up and not work and not move anywhere else and just do absolutely nothing instead?

In an economy where someone staying home to care for children or elderly parents can easily save $40-60k, I'd believe it.

Homemakers aren't doing nothing, they're just not represented.

You have to work where the jobs are. Where the jobs are is expensive as fuck, AI and the economy are driving down labor costs (both actual number of salaries and the cost of those individual salaries)... but rent and other living costs are only going up.

Not only is that my theory but that is literally the article we’re all commenting on “labor participation down” and this is one explanation based on discussions with hundreds of friends and classmates struggling with this issue.

> "if you cannot afford it, stop complainingb and live elsehwere" they say...sure...but a commuter train into Manhattan can run you $30-50/day. Add in parking at the commuter train station and you're down about $60 or more a day.

When people say that, I think they mean "get another job in another city that doesn't require a commute to Manhattan."

Yes, there are lots of cities in the US. Most cities dont have job centers. They might have jobs at Walmart, McDonalds, etc but not jobs that pay living wages. People are rational -- they either do the math, or have witnessed the math playing out in real life. You can live in a super-low-cost city but earning minimum wage don't make ends meet. Worse, it may even put you into a threshold where you get no medical care. If you have children, it doesnt pay for rent + healthcare + child care.

There is another reason people stick to major job centers -- because it is extremely risky moving to a 2nd or 3rd tier job center. You have to sign a 1yr lease on an apartment and are locked in. But your job isnt guaranteed for a year. There may be few or no other jobs in 2nd or 3rd tier job centers. Say you default on your lease -- now you have a way bigger problem because you cannot rent again (you have bad credit) and you also need to pass credit checks to get a job. https://www.nerdwallet.com/finance/learn/credit-score-employ...

Ultimately we all need to realize people are rational (NOT lazy) -- people are doing the math and the math aint mathing. Hence the "Sharp Drop in Labor Force Participation"

I'm guessing many (most?) people commuting to Manhattan aren't in the category of minimum wage workers.

Picking one of the most expensive places in the planet (Manhattan) as your example isn't helping you much. Lots of well known cities are much cheaper. When people I know move to, say, Tennessee, they're not working minimum wage. Ditto Kansas City, almost any Texan city except Austin. St Louis, Louisville, etc.

Until recently, even the Chicago Metro was still among the more affordable places for white collar workers - where you could buy a 2000 sq ft house and not go broke over doing so. I don't know if it's still the case, but it was still cheaper pre-pandemic than any of the cities in the Western states.

Edit: Just confirmed - Chicago is still cheaper. Affordable houses, in good neighborhoods.

> I'm guessing many (most?) people commuting to Manhattan aren't in the category of minimum wage workers.

Do you think there are no minimum wage workers in Manhattan? Or do you think someone making minimum wage could afford to live in Manhattan?

Except it doesnt only impact minimum wage workers...or does it only impact NYC -- its the same problem in Washington DC, Virginia suburbs, Boston, SF, Seattle. I suppose they could move to some rural area for cheap rent, but what jobs exist there?

I have multiple relatives making $60k or $100k and can barely survive once you introduce healthcare co-pays, deductibles, rent, pharma copays, etc.

Please, for a moment, consider that you are a techie possibly making $250k $500k, or more and there are people suffering who making a third or a fifth of you. Consider that you might be single but there are others with kids. Also consider that you might have a Platinum healthcare plan but others have "healthcare" with 10k deductibles per familymember.

But New York City as a metro area is the largest conglomeration connected by low-cost mass transit in the country meaning there's a massive liquid housing market and job market ready to fingertips. So if you live in the suburbs and the commuting cost is a dilemma you can always consider moving to the city itself

your suggestion to cash strapped people who can barely afford rent is "just buy a house in new york"?

Rent in nyc not buy... if as you describe commuting is eroding affordability of the suburbs

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