And this is why "mandatory app to configure" is an instant dealbreaker for me for any piece of hardware. Don't buy crap like this. Force companies to be better.
I am surprised, all the European brands like Miele, Siemens, Bosch, etc. household appliances work fine without an app. Most that we have now do have an option to connect to WiFi, we never connected them and they all work fine with good old buttons like it's 1985.
Though my main point is, that it is not hard to find products that work fine without an app. E.g. I just checked the Bosch site and could find many models that support delayed start, etc. with on-device buttons. In fact, the one that I picked somewhat randomly, the primary feature the app adds is that you can start the dishwasher remotely, which is the only feature I'd expect to need an app for.
(I completely believe that some of these manufacturers will also have models where they save on on-device buttons/displays by requiring an app.)
For instance, our home HVAC shipped with blatant firmware bugs that eat blower fans, lock up compressors, etc, but take a few years to do it and access to the hidden service menu to diagnose.
Eventually, I broke down and put it online to get the firmware update (after a $500-1000 fix "in warranty").
(It's a Bryant.)
However, I can also use the dials much like I did with our old appliances. There is nothing locked out and we actually used them offline for a few weeks (tbh I didn't try setting the finish time using the appliances' controls).
In Jeff's case that's obviously not the case, but there are still options from BSH. As with everything, one has to be careful in what they buy these days. Don't interpret this as victim blaming: I hate that we have to be careful with these traps.
Edit: There are of course alternative manufacturers, but BSH ist a known quantity regarding quality. And when it comes to cloud stuff I trust them a little bit more than other manufacturers; they're actually the only smart thing we own that's not blocked in my OpnSense.
There are at least a dozen combos I have never used.
It required a damn proprietary phone app, which I assume was bouncing commands through the internet.
Your best option is to purchase your own cable modem/router and quit renting that garbage hardware from Comcast.
Or kick them to the curb and go cableless using Verizon with a router that's worth paying for.
They've been having connection hiccups and blaming the old independent router/modem even though I suspect the problem is somewhere further on.
Nobody wants to admit it, but they are more home decor and geewhiz BS than practical appliance for several decades now. You'll be perfectly fine buying cheap barebones models if you are repair savvy. Choosing colors and materials like black or white and stainless steel is "boring", but only if the surrounding space is already ugly.
I've had the same no name amazon special washer and dryer for almost 15 years now. Reviews were 3/5 stars at the time. People complained about belts slipping and hinges breaking. I just fixed them with parts on ebay. They still look and run like new.
Same for anything else. I don't see the whole "oh you need firmware update to improve the product". 90% of the time it just works.
So what happens if the fridge isn't given internet access ? Or washing machine?
Dishwashers, refrigerators, even (and perhaps especially) cars.
"Just don't connect it to the Internet," is sadly less viable option as time goes on.
I feel compelled to quibble with your word choice here. Not connecting appliances to the Internet remains a viable option. It is simply one that is increasingly not common or not readily available.
"less viable option as time goes on" is pretty much "remains a viable option, increasingly not common"
?
To me, "less viable" implies there some outside factor or internal failure preventing it from working. But non-internet appliances will continue to work just fine, if you can get one. I.e. it's a viable choice, just one with less and less availability.
HP fixed a remote exploit a few years back. Theoretically someone could use your local wifi printer to install a persistent backdoor on your network. In practice HP uses updates to patch leaks in their cartridge protection (the most complicated tech in the printers). And accidentally sometimes bricks printers...
You probably meant "I want no frills product because of its simplicity, not because its cheap" but when that feedback reaches a PM, they'll only hear "I will pay more to not have a camera or a mic".
I want a very good washing machine with frills, but it want it to wash well and quietly without needing to be configured from my phone over wifi.
Have you ever considered upgrading your refrigerator? Washing machine? Kettle? A router is a transparent appliance to most people.
It's sorta like checking if spare parts are available for your refrigerator or washing machine.
You need to know why you want to spend money, which implies evaluating features, needs and possibilities, virtually guaranteeing that the user learns that OS or firmware updates and OpenWRT exist and are important.
Luckily, many (but certainly not all) continental West-European ISPs allow you to lease a Fritz!Box or you can buy one in a store and hook it up [1]. Perfect router/modem for consumers (not too complicated), can be configured through a web interface, and the hardware and software is developed by a German company.
[1] Many European countries have router/modem freedom, so an ISP cannot block you if you want to hook up your own gear. E.g. quite some tech people here use their own XGS-PON fiber ONT or at least their own router + modem.
I was reluctant to recommend them by name because I know there are other good ISPs, some are cheaper, some are more expensive, some operate only in certain areas (if they do not use Openreach local loops).
Jun 08 00:23:10 zalgor kernel: [UFW BLOCK] IN=enp0s31f6 OUT= MAC=01:02:03:04:05:06:07:08:09:10:11:12:13:14 SRC=192.168.178.1 DST=224.0.0.1 LEN=36 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=1 ID=53621 DF PROTO=2 ... from my German residence right now.
Just the last one, out of gazillions. It's a proprietary protocol for finding their other proprietary stuff in the LAN for home automation, meshing (also proprietary).
It's also almost useless for more complex internal setups.
Rather logspammy if you ask me.
One doesn't have that with other, more technical options. There is also less and less need for the "DSL- (or cable-) modem part, since fibre tends to be plain old ethernet.
Also the ownership of AVM recently changed. I fully excpect ensuing enshittification.
Instead I went with a Gl.inet device with three interfaces.
I've considered it, if I can get fiber here I will definitely get one for my segment, and maybe my resell segment too.
And besides this issue, overall it works great. I recommend this to anyone who asks me about it.
More and more IP cameras can't be set up without a phone app. TP-Link's Tapo line is really bad about it. Even some Reolink cameras can't be setup on their own.
Now that high quality, affordable brands like Dahua got banned (w/o evidence), there's less pressure on the survivors to not be awful.
More evidence that this isn't about cost at all, but control. Fortunately, the good old-fashioned "dumb" ones that just have a tiny web server to serve their configuration and viewing UI still exist, seemingly at both the ultra-cheap (unbranded/random brand ones from China based on a reference design, built by companies with no desire to host anything) and ultra-expensive (Axis, Bosch, etc.) ends of the market; the middle is entirely filled with the "smart" "cloud" crap.
You are absolutely correct. However, in regards to a phone app there is likely to be 2ndary pressure from data brokers who firehose cash for any data their phone app collects.
The company doesn't have to go away, the app just has to have issues. At least with web apps, you aren't depending on the manufacturer investing in nearly continuous upgrades to work in the rapidly changing phone environment
A web UI will continue to work for decades. And app will likely not last a year without updates.
They basically are. They just license their name out now, it’s like buying a Kodak router.
(That’s actually relatively common with various tech-adjacent companies, e.g. off the top of my head both Energizer and Philips license out their brand to third parties for random crap, even though they make actual products themselves too.)
I just installed 10 Reolinks and I had to set up a phone app for two of them that didn't have an Ethernet connector. Ick.
I have one Tapo and ran their app from an android emulator. I won't buy another.
At any rate, I think as much as web vs. app, IMO companies should be forced to support their appliances for a certain time period by law (the EU has rolled out a law to require this for some device types). If it was normal for a router to work for 10 years or a washing machine for 20 years, a vendor should be forced to support it for that amount of time since the last sale.
Stop mandating apps that will eventually break or cease being supported. Give us an OOBE that can be run independent of some mobile app.
- it was more clear when buying a product that an app is required to activate/use/etc a device
- that people who rebelled against this kind of nonsense were backed up by others and respected "more power to you!"