Motorola effectively bricked its entire line of WiFi routers without explanation
mashable.com
mashable.com
I've considered it, if I can get fiber here I will definitely get one for my segment, and maybe my resell segment too.
Instead I went with a Gl.inet device with three interfaces.
And besides this issue, overall it works great. I recommend this to anyone who asks me about it.
Have you ever considered upgrading your refrigerator? Washing machine? Kettle? A router is a transparent appliance to most people.
It's sorta like checking if spare parts are available for your refrigerator or washing machine.
You need to know why you want to spend money, which implies evaluating features, needs and possibilities, virtually guaranteeing that the user learns that OS or firmware updates and OpenWRT exist and are important.
Luckily, many (but certainly not all) continental West-European ISPs allow you to lease a Fritz!Box or you can buy one in a store and hook it up [1]. Perfect router/modem for consumers (not too complicated), can be configured through a web interface, and the hardware and software is developed by a German company.
[1] Many European countries have router/modem freedom, so an ISP cannot block you if you want to hook up your own gear. E.g. quite some tech people here use their own XGS-PON fiber ONT or at least their own router + modem.
I was reluctant to recommend them by name because I know there are other good ISPs, some are cheaper, some are more expensive, some operate only in certain areas (if they do not use Openreach local loops).
Jun 08 00:23:10 zalgor kernel: [UFW BLOCK] IN=enp0s31f6 OUT= MAC=01:02:03:04:05:06:07:08:09:10:11:12:13:14 SRC=192.168.178.1 DST=224.0.0.1 LEN=36 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=1 ID=53621 DF PROTO=2 ... from my German residence right now.
Just the last one, out of gazillions. It's a proprietary protocol for finding their other proprietary stuff in the LAN for home automation, meshing (also proprietary).
It's also almost useless for more complex internal setups.
Rather logspammy if you ask me.
One doesn't have that with other, more technical options. There is also less and less need for the "DSL- (or cable-) modem part, since fibre tends to be plain old ethernet.
Also the ownership of AVM recently changed. I fully excpect ensuing enshittification.
- it was more clear when buying a product that an app is required to activate/use/etc a device
- that people who rebelled against this kind of nonsense were backed up by others and respected "more power to you!"
More and more IP cameras can't be set up without a phone app. TP-Link's Tapo line is really bad about it. Even some Reolink cameras can't be setup on their own.
Now that high quality, affordable brands like Dahua got banned (w/o evidence), there's less pressure on the survivors to not be awful.
I just installed 10 Reolinks and I had to set up a phone app for two of them that didn't have an Ethernet connector. Ick.
I have one Tapo and ran their app from an android emulator. I won't buy another.
The company doesn't have to go away, the app just has to have issues. At least with web apps, you aren't depending on the manufacturer investing in nearly continuous upgrades to work in the rapidly changing phone environment
A web UI will continue to work for decades. And app will likely not last a year without updates.
They basically are. They just license their name out now, it’s like buying a Kodak router.
(That’s actually relatively common with various tech-adjacent companies, e.g. off the top of my head both Energizer and Philips license out their brand to third parties for random crap, even though they make actual products themselves too.)
More evidence that this isn't about cost at all, but control. Fortunately, the good old-fashioned "dumb" ones that just have a tiny web server to serve their configuration and viewing UI still exist, seemingly at both the ultra-cheap (unbranded/random brand ones from China based on a reference design, built by companies with no desire to host anything) and ultra-expensive (Axis, Bosch, etc.) ends of the market; the middle is entirely filled with the "smart" "cloud" crap.
You are absolutely correct. However, in regards to a phone app there is likely to be 2ndary pressure from data brokers who firehose cash for any data their phone app collects.
Same for anything else. I don't see the whole "oh you need firmware update to improve the product". 90% of the time it just works.
So what happens if the fridge isn't given internet access ? Or washing machine?
HP fixed a remote exploit a few years back. Theoretically someone could use your local wifi printer to install a persistent backdoor on your network. In practice HP uses updates to patch leaks in their cartridge protection (the most complicated tech in the printers). And accidentally sometimes bricks printers...
Dishwashers, refrigerators, even (and perhaps especially) cars.
"Just don't connect it to the Internet," is sadly less viable option as time goes on.
I feel compelled to quibble with your word choice here. Not connecting appliances to the Internet remains a viable option. It is simply one that is increasingly not common or not readily available.
"less viable option as time goes on" is pretty much "remains a viable option, increasingly not common"
?
To me, "less viable" implies there some outside factor or internal failure preventing it from working. But non-internet appliances will continue to work just fine, if you can get one. I.e. it's a viable choice, just one with less and less availability.
It required a damn proprietary phone app, which I assume was bouncing commands through the internet.
Your best option is to purchase your own cable modem/router and quit renting that garbage hardware from Comcast.
Or kick them to the curb and go cableless using Verizon with a router that's worth paying for.
They've been having connection hiccups and blaming the old independent router/modem even though I suspect the problem is somewhere further on.
I am surprised, all the European brands like Miele, Siemens, Bosch, etc. household appliances work fine without an app. Most that we have now do have an option to connect to WiFi, we never connected them and they all work fine with good old buttons like it's 1985.
Though my main point is, that it is not hard to find products that work fine without an app. E.g. I just checked the Bosch site and could find many models that support delayed start, etc. with on-device buttons. In fact, the one that I picked somewhat randomly, the primary feature the app adds is that you can start the dishwasher remotely, which is the only feature I'd expect to need an app for.
(I completely believe that some of these manufacturers will also have models where they save on on-device buttons/displays by requiring an app.)
For instance, our home HVAC shipped with blatant firmware bugs that eat blower fans, lock up compressors, etc, but take a few years to do it and access to the hidden service menu to diagnose.
Eventually, I broke down and put it online to get the firmware update (after a $500-1000 fix "in warranty").
(It's a Bryant.)
However, I can also use the dials much like I did with our old appliances. There is nothing locked out and we actually used them offline for a few weeks (tbh I didn't try setting the finish time using the appliances' controls).
In Jeff's case that's obviously not the case, but there are still options from BSH. As with everything, one has to be careful in what they buy these days. Don't interpret this as victim blaming: I hate that we have to be careful with these traps.
Edit: There are of course alternative manufacturers, but BSH ist a known quantity regarding quality. And when it comes to cloud stuff I trust them a little bit more than other manufacturers; they're actually the only smart thing we own that's not blocked in my OpnSense.
There are at least a dozen combos I have never used.
You probably meant "I want no frills product because of its simplicity, not because its cheap" but when that feedback reaches a PM, they'll only hear "I will pay more to not have a camera or a mic".
I want a very good washing machine with frills, but it want it to wash well and quietly without needing to be configured from my phone over wifi.
Nobody wants to admit it, but they are more home decor and geewhiz BS than practical appliance for several decades now. You'll be perfectly fine buying cheap barebones models if you are repair savvy. Choosing colors and materials like black or white and stainless steel is "boring", but only if the surrounding space is already ugly.
I've had the same no name amazon special washer and dryer for almost 15 years now. Reviews were 3/5 stars at the time. People complained about belts slipping and hinges breaking. I just fixed them with parts on ebay. They still look and run like new.
At any rate, I think as much as web vs. app, IMO companies should be forced to support their appliances for a certain time period by law (the EU has rolled out a law to require this for some device types). If it was normal for a router to work for 10 years or a washing machine for 20 years, a vendor should be forced to support it for that amount of time since the last sale.
Stop mandating apps that will eventually break or cease being supported. Give us an OOBE that can be run independent of some mobile app.
due to server license expiring, after the host ended operations and
has been in play since at least May 12
The latest issue is "Server Licence Expired". I have been
unable to manage devices for months. So..I reset my router.
I no longer have a mesh network. I have only the single
point router and still unable to manage devices.
The licence verification issue continues. I found out this
is because a 3rd party managed the Server and folded.
3 weeks of almost daily Chat promises to connect to a
specialist which never materializes.
I left some chats open for hours.
On the bright side, maybe someone can get Claude or some other LLM to figure out how to crack it; and perhaps even vibe-code an alternative app.
And at least for connected devices at home, a dedicated app can have lower friction for initial setup for the "I'm not a computer person" crowd than other alternatives do.
(I know, I know. It's terrible. It even feels something like betrayal sometimes. But that's how it be, anyway -- and you and I are powerless to do anything about it.)
Strong doubt. What's lower friction, "visit this address in your browser and login to start configuring" vs. "go download this app, open it, possibly log in and register an account, add 'your' device, and only then start to configure it"?
Let's also not forget the possible chicken-and-egg situation of needing the Internet to download an app to setup your new router to access the Internet...
Point your phone at the QR sticker on the router, click open, boom you’re on the config page!
That’s a faster experience, doesn’t require any searching, doesn’t require wondering if you downloaded the right app, doesn’t require you sign up, etc.
Your claim people prefer apps to QR codes is highly doubtful.
I claimed what?
Ie, what normal people use regularly every day.
On the other hand: A thing that requires a web browser for setup does not necessarily allow strictly-local configuration; it often gets shaped that way, but it does not have to be that way.
There's no rule or law that says that these things have to be one way or another. It's a moot distinction.
> Hard requiring app setup for a router is a play to sell usage and location data,
Speaking of moot points: It's a router. And by "router," I mean: It's a whole-ass black-box computer with some Ethernet ports, a collection of radios, and an Internet connection. If/when companies decide to be in the business of selling usage and location data, they don't need an app to do that. They can just package it up and send it forth. (Location? From wifi? Yeah, that's been a solved problem for a long time now. It was first demonstrated to me in 2008 with the OG iPod Touch, which lacked both GPS and Bluetooth, but did an amazingly-good job of delivering the beholder's location using a combination of observed wifi signals and a central database.)
---
Moving on:
I guess we can talk about things like web browsers, IP addresses, QR codes, and SSIDs, and setting up routers using our pocket supercomputers.
Old way: Fire up router, manually connect to its SSID (it used to be wide-open; these days, there's usually a password printed on a label instead), set it up with a browser, and then at the right points manually connect to the newly-configured SSID instead, and [optionally] manually go to the new address (if chosen) to continue configuration (if necessary). Manually remove the old factory SSID for cleanliness. (I cut my teeth on this method and I like it just fine, but I'm one of those computer people.)
QR+browser way: Fire up router. Connect to its SSID with a QR code. Connect to its web interface by scanning another QR code. Configure the thing. Connect to the new SSID manually (or perhaps invent a workflow to scan and use a QR code using only 1 pocket supercomputer). Optionally continue configuration by remembering the name/IP of the device, or maybe printing a QR code or something. Manually remove the old factory SSID for cleanliness. (Login to third-party server at some stage? Yeah, maybe. See above.)
App way: Fire up router. Download app using familiar processes (perhaps including a QR code). App temporarily connects to router's default SSID. User uses app to configure router. At the right times, the app automatically disconnects from the old SSID, adds the new SSID to the network list, and reconnects using the new address (if selected). Optionally, continue configuring the device using the app. (Login to third party server at some point? Yeah, maybe. Again, see above.)
A Cisco 2501 is a router.
But words can mean more than one thing. Both in the common vernacular and in the context of these Motorola-branded devices: A router is a thing that routes, and also includes radios, and SSIDs, and switching.
What is this FUD?
For whatever it's worth, I associate the term FUD with crypto bros. Both of you simply stated an assertion at fact and then flipped out when someone deigned to defy that. Maybe argue your points properly?
That's two things they ruined.
While we're at it, I think them claiming the term Web 3.0 is very self-aggrandizing.
Yup. But as a broad signal, is the person getting uppity about FUD usually making a valid point or safe to ignore?
For a router? This is the device that you will often not have internet access with which to download an app until after it's configured. Many people have wired internet specifically because they live somewhere with poor cellular reception. Meanwhile the device can give out DHCP and use the standard captive portal mechanisms to automatically direct any client device to its configuration page.
I didn't say that I thought it was right, or fair, or just. I didn't say I liked it, or that I agree with it.
In fact, I think it's a pretty ugly state of affairs when a person in an area of poor connectivity needs to climb the hill/go into town/otherwise make plans before they can get their shiny new router to work.
I can accept that things are the way they are, or I can pretend that they're different.
Acceptance seems to be a lot more honest.
The implication that there is nothing anyone can do to improve the existing state of affairs is also incorrect.
I did not.
> That claim is in error.
My motivation to further discuss a hallucination is insignificant.
This is the exact quote:
> And at least for connected devices at home, a dedicated app can have lower friction for initial setup for the "I'm not a computer person" crowd than other alternatives do.
What good does it do you to dispute that you implied it as a justification for the status quo when your error is contained in the part you're not disputing?
> implied
Any implied meanings are your own creations, not mine.
I assure you that if I had meant something different than what I wrote, then I would have written something different instead.
I'm not shy.
Be well.
Unfortunately the only tech stack that can do this is the web, (serial/remote shell comes close).
In fact I regard this as the major failure of the app method of program deliverance. Why do you need to install them at all? It should be like the web, hit an address load the app. It is why I am thankful that the web was not developed as a commercial project. No for-profit entity would have let it escape their control like that. It would have been designed exactly like the app system for phones is. enforced central blessed "app-stores" and manual install processes.
If the default was something else I suspect people would accept that too, especially if it was lower friction.
I'd say typing a few characters into an address bar (or scanning a QR code) is, at the least, not higher friction than downloading an app and creating an account.
LLMs are great for this, though the more people use it for blackhat style things, the more I fear they will lockdown LLMs which are useful for reversing things that are legacy as heck and abandonware.
Also, thanks for mentioning! I wasn't aware of this
At least nothing tipped me off for that specific text. What did you see?
I'm really hoping these new tools will empower a new generation of people. It's sad that there even needs to be a term 'citizen scientist'.
Based on the screenshots I’m going to hazard a guess that it’s because someone forgot to update, or just stopped paying for, the server license.
The insistence they go through a server is why they suck
More info: https://sslinsights.com/code-signing-time-stamping/
opinion based on their support system, correspondence and android updates,
As mentioned in the article, they are products of Premier LogiTech, LLC, who have licensed the Motorola brand name.
In 2011/2012, it was divided into different parts. The biggest were Motorola Solutions (mostly focused 2-way radios and related communications infrastructure; stuff commonly used by public safety entities) and Motorola Mobility (mostly cell phones and related stuff).
Google bought Motorola Mobility. It has been said that this was because Google wanted their patent portfolio. In 2014, Google sold Motorola Mobility to Lenovo: The same Lenovo that makes ThinkPads is also who makes Motorola phones today.
Somewhere along the line, their name also got licensed out for home networking bits. That appears to be the products that the Mashable article writes about. This history is murkier, but it appears that some combination of Premier LogiTech and Boundless Devices (whoever tf these companies are) is responsible for making the Motorola-branded routers in question.
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tl;dr, the Motorola that makes the radios that cops carry on their hip, the Motorola that makes Android phones that consumers carry in their pocket, and the Motorola that makes home routers are not the same company. Like -- at all.
Conflating them is easy because it is, frankly, a confusing mess.
But still: The shitty software on a Motorola phone is not cut from the same cloth as the shitty software on a Motorola router. They're products of very different companies that share nothing but a common trademark.
https://www.kodak.com/en/consumer/page/support/
(Or Memorex electric scooters. That's also an 'okay then...' license...)
Kodak is in bad shape. They were exquisitely focused on cradle-to-grave film products: Ideally, a person used Kodak cameras that were loaded with Kodak film that was processed with Kodak chemicals on Kodak machines before being printed on Kodak paper using more Kodak machines and chemicals, and all of this but the picture-taking happened within Kodak facilities.
They had their finger on this market for a very long time. But ship that once delivered their bread and butter has sank, and nobody is going to build a new one (not for Kodak, nor for anyone else -- some folks still shoot on film and will continue to do so for as long as it is possible, but it's never "coming back").
Meanwhile, Motorola Solutions (stock ticker MSI) is alive and well. They're still based in Illinois, and they're still doing good work in the 2-way radio space and -- most importantly -- selling radios and back-end gear. They're not in the consumer products game anymore, but it's perfectly OK to make money selling expensive stuff to businesses and governments. (That's a pretty common position; it just happens to be one that isn't particularly visible.)
The situation with Motorola-branded routers is closer to that of General Electric, I suppose: GE licensed/sold their consumer-goods division a long time ago; the GE-branded products on the shelf at the store are, at present, products of Haier. But portions of the old GE still produce things like jet engines and power-generation turbines -- big, expensive stuff for solving big, expensive problems.
Its wifi/bt card broke exactly one year after I bought it. It worked exactly for 365 days. That was 100% hardware failure and planned obsolescence.
Needless to say never bought not even looked at anything Motorola ever since.
The imp gave a nervous cough.
“Good for you!” it said. “You have wisely purchased the Dis-organizer Mk II, the latest in biothaumaturgic design, with a host of useful features and no resemblance whatsoever to the Mk I, which you may have inadvertently destroyed by stamping on it heavily!” it said, adding, “This device is provided without warranty of any kind as to reliability, accuracy, existence or otherwise or fitness for any particular purpose and Bioalchemic Products specifically does not warrant, guarantee, imply or make any representations as to its merchantability for any particular purpose and furthermore shall have no liability for or responsibility to you or any other person, entity or deity with respect of any loss or damage whatsoever caused by this device or object or by any attempts to destroy it by hammering it against a wall or dropping it into a deep well or any other means whatsoever and moreover asserts that you indicate your acceptance of this agreement or any other agreement that may be substituted at any time by coming within five miles of the product or observing it through large telescopes or by any other means because you are such an easily cowed moron who will happily accept arrogant and unilateral conditions on a piece of highly priced garbage that you would not dream of accepting on a bag of dog biscuits and is used solely at your own risk.”
The imp took a deep breath. “May I introduce to you the rest of my wide range of interesting and amusing sounds, Insert Name Here?”
the Motorola MotoSync+ app is required to set up all new compatible
WiFi routers released by Motorola
Now that it's my network to manage, I have to say that while it's a huge upgrade from the TP-Link Deco units we had before, the cloud management just makes it worse. The web UI is slow, probably because every click requires a round trip from my laptop, to a datacenter somewhere, to the router/switch/AP 5m away from me, back to the datacenter, and back to my laptop.
And it's not like a mobile app unlocked some new features that couldn't be implemented in a browser. The app is slow, sluggish, and basic things like adding a DHCP reservation took multiple tries to succeed, each taking an agonizingly long time of watching a spinner.
If you contrast this with my home MikroTik, the UI is less "your grandma could configure it" simple, but it's fast, available over local web, SSH, desktop app, mobile app, and I think also an API, and has every feature I can think of from basic bridging to complex routing and firewalling.
* there was a very basic web UI that I recall had like 1 or 2 settings, don't remember which exactly.
I think we can make an educated guess as to why. Maybe we could get Claude to reverse engineer it to clean up its own mess.
The events in the article are a simple, transient backend malfunction.
ARRIS SURFboard SBG6580
MG7700, MG7550-30, MG7315, ML240 (cellular)So far Apple “just works”. Is it perfect? No. But I can’t imagine fuckup of this magnitude from them.
apple airpods pro 2nd gen 'just don't work' with say samsung phones (s24 in our case) - constant disconnections, pairing fails maybe 50% of the time. Come with apple phone to very same plugs, and they 'just work'. Over effin' bluetooth that chinese plugs for 10 bucks have figured out better.
Wake me up when I can go on filesystem and copy to my computer any damn file I want from the device running unix kernel that I supposedly own, like photos and videos I took, over open standard usb.