Disclaimer: I gladly buy from local EU businesses, but not if they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products.
I searched the brand on the internet, but nothing turned up. Just Slovenian shops selling that same model at a similar price. [1] This seemed strange to me.
So then I screenshot one of those pages and search via image. Turns out that you can buy the exact same scooter on TaoBao for 952 RMB. (~114 EUR.) [2]
This is an absolutely ordinary situation. It was much the same when I was purchasing a bike for my kid -- 300 EUR here vs. 250 RMB there, for exactly the same bike. The purchasing power gap between USD|EUR and RMB is immense.
(I try not to talk about it too much, because it's the sort of thing that really upsets politicians and local vendors, and they'll want to find a way to make it more painful. It's a secret "life-hack" but for real.)
[1] - https://www.telekom.si/e-trgovina/sport-in-prosti-cas/skiroj...
[2] - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?abbucket=5&id=869342176534
This is why these Chinese sellers have become so popular - although in some cases, yes they are cutting corners - the main reason why they can sell the products so much cheaper is because they cut out a number of middlemen.
The person who imports the product into Europe has to make a profit. The person who brings it from there into your country and distributes it has to make a profit. The retailer has to make a profit, on top of paying their staff and landlord. It all adds up.
I would always recommend buying recognizable brands for anything critical. Otherwise it's basically a lottery. Quality control for brands, not to mention customer support, might feel like it leaves a lot to be desired. But it's still light years ahead of un/rebranded Chinese goods.
Since we have no choice, and the odds of coming out ok (if not exactly winning) in this lottery are not that bad, it's a workable situation. But because we have to replace things so often, I'd say we don't save much money - compared to western prices for the brands I mean. Compared to Vietnamese prices, we definitely save money. I'm not happy about the waste created, but at least we're in the country where everything goes to get recycled already.
On the other hand, there are also good quality Chinese brands (Dong Chen power tools, for example, or Timemore coffee equipment). But they're not that cheap.
There are also markets where the markup on brand names is insane. For example: take a water pump, then brand it an "aquarium water pump", and suddenly you can charge 4x more for the same thing. Here even bad quality Chinese products win out because the cost is so much less (and it's not even certain that the quality is inferior since the brand names are also made in china).
Finally, I can't stress what a negative purchasing signal "smart"/IoT features are for me. Perhaps some people love having online accounts for their lightbulbs and waiting around for the manufacturer to brick their devices, but it's not my cup of tea. Chinese devices often either lack smart features or use Bluetooth + a very basic app with no logins required. Another win.
Well, even from the same factory, different levels of quality control are done, and different materials are used. For example, the last few days I've been researching a cordless drill. It seems that Total/Ingco are Chinese brands made in the same factory (they just change the plastic color and logo), and it also seems highly likely that the factory also makes DeWalt. However, while the DeWalt drills look very similar, they're also visibly higher quality plastic, and when I found a comparison video of the three, the DeWalt was also more powerful, had additional features and was just clearly the better choice.
On the other hand, it's about three times more expensive and the consensuses seems to be that Total/Ingco are not terrible - probably fine for a homeowner who does occasional handiwork. Personally I went with a DongChen drill and using it for a few jobs I think I made a good choice. It's strong, feels heavy and solid.
However, I've also got a couple of small Total items like a current tester pen, and it's fine. Lasted a few years of occasional use so far.
There are a few good ones, but they had to do what was necessary. For example, to increase the appeal of electric vehicles - they hired German industrial designers from European automakers.
The few ones that come to mind are Huawei, DJI, and arguably Xiaomi. Then, of course, you have niche companies with great products that market mainly through influencers, such as Bambulab. There are also plenty of niche products from Chinese brands with high quality.
But the vast majority are sloppy, lack "good taste" (which is subjective to culture), compete mainly on price, and from my understanding, they haven't developed their own identity - or at least popularized it in Western countries.
For example, Japanese companies' marketing, and even the marketing in Japan, has an appeal to Western audiences because of cultural exchanges (from products to media for many decades). It's unique and original to them, and Western audiences cherish it.
People always state this as if it's a gotcha, but there's almost zero large western companies that don't have Chinese people or companies in the loop somehow, whether manufacturing, materials, or even just everything except branding.
We live in a globalised economy. I bet if someone was setting up a very large plastic manufacturing plant in Germany, there's a very high chance they'd hire Chinese experts to help set it up, or even to run it outright.
I can't speak for the other people, but in my statement, there was no gotcha or hidden meaning. But I can rephrase it: there are more costs to break into a market other than a low price. That works, but only goes so far, and will depend on the type of product.
> We live in a globalised economy. I bet if someone was setting up a very large plastic manufacturing plant in Germany, there's a very high chance they'd hire Chinese experts to help set it up, or even to run it outright.
Yes. This is confusing because you're agreeing with me.
It's also hard to manage things in countries where you aren't.
The importers that find these goods, buy inventory, sell locally for a markup, and provide warranty service are providing a valuable function in the economy and have earned some markup.
They weren’t developing brand because they weren’t developing products.
The problem is that Chinese companies ignore EU laws , taking away customers rights. And local companies overcharging, but providing said rights or at least being held responsible, if they don't.
Both ends of an extreme. It's terrible.
Will you be the next bezos? No. Will you make a living with little effort and little smarts? Probably.
You can't even trust what's printed on the ICs. Seriously, look into chip counterfeiting, it's a real problem.
That's why active components from Digikey and Mouser are so much more expensive than what you see on Amazon or eBay. They can trace the components back to the fab where they were made. You pay more, but you know you're getting what you ordered.
Do I trust it to work safely in my use case? Yes.
Other than people that buy from actual specialty stores, that's basically how buying anything works these days. You use your best judgement and continue on.
When you use counterfeit power components like SCRs, the risk you take is burning down your house with your family still inside.
Hey, it's your call. You're free to use what you like. Just don't say we didn't warn you.
Is it unlikely? Maybe, but also it has happened enough times that it's probably worth paying attention here. Relevant on today's front page https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44638580
There's a reason the "shocking" examples they give in this article are now things like "kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length, which cause a trip hazard." China is an export economy and takes this stuff pretty seriously, which is why I also think articles like this are mostly about manufacturing consent for future actions. We gotta get ready for the next war - Ukraine and Israel are getting so boring!
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood...
Even mainland Chinese themselves don’t trust Chinese products, meanwhile they are flooding every country around the world with poisoned garbage.
It takes a simple Google search to find recent examples and I’m not even going to bother posting examples because it’s so easy to find.
Same materials, same machinery, same workers, same packaging. Different factory exit.
I seriously doubt you can buy such a battery for 952 RMB.
The Taobao link you shared leads me to a 'not found' page.
One thing to watch out for on Taobao, even for legitimate sellers: a listing will often include a main item and several accessories, all as different variants of the same product. So a single listing might include variants for:
- a scooter with battery
- a spare battery
- a charger
- a wing mirror
If you are looking at the price, be sure you have selected the variant that matches the thing you want.'
Source: I lived in China for 9 years, and have placed hundreds of orders on Taobao (including replacement Li-ion batteries for two Vespa-style scooters).
Did they change the Taobao listing? The price is lower still and the scooter is not at all similar.
I bought LED string lights from a local company (Clas Ohlson in Sweden), and very similar looking lights from Temu.
Clas Ohlson: wires isolated from each other and running perfectly parallel to each other through the entire string. A nice power converter. Lights all identical, properly secured. Made in China.
Temu: wires nearly touching each other in multiple places. No power converter, you plug the thing directly into the power socket. Lights embedded every which way. Made in China.
Quite often those "unreasonable fees" are for quality control
> they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products
Doesn't most of our economy feel like a scam?
It seems inevitable, when dominant economic frameworks treat consumption as something which must be endlessly stimulated (at ever-increasing prices), instead of stimulating production, forcing cutthroat competition in areas where there is currently little, and letting the unprofitable rent-seekers and parasites get flushed out.
Yeah, it’s an institutionalized scam that’s increasingly dysfunctional and absurd.
It’s only cutthroat capitalism for the less well off majority that make up an increasingly small part of the economy. By dollar value the economy is dominated by financialization and speculative asset bubbles.
This has been the case for over a decade now. As a consumer, ordering directly from a Chinese seller/manufacturer was always met with intense scrutiny and taxation the moment consumers would have to pick up their package at customs. It has been made economically unreasonable for the average person to do these kind of things, which is why ...
> they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products
This has become a notorious trend within the EU. Unlike in the US, where consumers could order directly from Chinese vendors without being taxed, the EU implemented policies that only benefitted the cheeky business (wo)men who wanted to make a quick buck by playing middleman.
In my opinion, this pseudo-protectionist behavior by EU lawmakers was a key reason for Amazon's uprising in Europe. Amazon offered the cheap Chinese products the population wanted, yet undercut local middlemen at large.
On the other hand China is the manufacturing giant of the world, and being able to source components directly in small quantities at a reasonable price is probably very useful to small businesses, so I hope that can continue somehow.
We need to fend this off, even if it means people will have to pay more for individual purchases, because the larger population does not understand macroscopic effects. China is a danger to the EU, and also the US (even though the US currently is mostly dangerous to itself).
I can set myself on fire trying to keep Europe warm... or I can not.
Which is exactly why they are trying to close the "loophole", if the poor people can go directly to the source, big government can't put its hand in every single process to tax it in order to pay for all the bullshit. The industry is complicit because they get to make more profit this way, the whole system is corrupted anyway.
As for the things that are made in the EU, they are barely affordable for the middle class already, precisely because there is very little value creation and it's get taxed to the ground. The ones suffering the most are the poor, who are often the ones actually working to create said value, preventing access to those cheap goods is just another way to force them to stay poor.
I am simply trying to explain the otherwise baffling leniency toward very hostile actors like (current) America or China: because this goes directly against its core values, one of them being to always promote free trade. This is even stated as one of its "aim and value" in [2].
I am no Eurosceptic, I think we should just acknowledge and challenge the EU's current limitations if we want to move forward.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism
[2] https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor...
for my part i am ordering lots of trinkets that i might need, assuming that Temu will be banned soon
Like most voters I’m anti-war but people tend not to get what they vote for in important matters like that.
The US will not permit the EU to sit on the sidelines.
Meanwhile the US has far too little independent industrial manufacturing left. All of its super-expensive weapons systems need components and raw materials - especially rare earths - imported from China.
The US has a huge stockpile of weapons which are incredibly vulnerable to sneak drone attacks.
It has neither the talent, the resources, nor the industrial capacity to build replacements quickly at scale, never mind mass produce the drone swarm armies that will win the next war.
I'm not a huge fan of empires, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see China become the sole remaining superpower within ten years - before starting its own inevitable decay into corruption and psychopathy.
you think the EU will declare war with russia? they will not do it formally, but who knows if they will send troops.
you think russia will invade attempt to EU? if so, you're delusional
The EU-Russia and US-China would be of the same broader conflict. Both the US and China are corrupt but at least in a China the politicians are the owners so they can more easily act in their own interest (less agency cost), the US has a competing oligarchy which leads to looting. There is a right-wing CIA cutout Theilverse faction putting together a bit of a coup and I guess once they are in control the plan is to use Anduril, Palantir, and PMCs to end the looting and create a parallel system of governance / military. I don’t know if that’ll be enough to keep US hegemony, but given the options I guess they’ll think they have to try.
China is very much incentivized to wait which we are told we should interpret as weakness. I think being able to take the hits and wait for more advantageous circumstance is a sign of strength. We’re told that the fact that neither Russia, China, or Pakistan will give Iran nuclear weapons is a sign that they are scared, I think that ignores the fact that these conflicts are serving their goal of wearing down the west. If they succeed they might win WWIII without much of a fight.