EU commissioner shocked by dangers of some goods sold by Shein and Temu
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
Disclaimer: I gladly buy from local EU businesses, but not if they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products.
for my part i am ordering lots of trinkets that i might need, assuming that Temu will be banned soon
Like most voters I’m anti-war but people tend not to get what they vote for in important matters like that.
The US will not permit the EU to sit on the sidelines.
Meanwhile the US has far too little independent industrial manufacturing left. All of its super-expensive weapons systems need components and raw materials - especially rare earths - imported from China.
The US has a huge stockpile of weapons which are incredibly vulnerable to sneak drone attacks.
It has neither the talent, the resources, nor the industrial capacity to build replacements quickly at scale, never mind mass produce the drone swarm armies that will win the next war.
I'm not a huge fan of empires, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see China become the sole remaining superpower within ten years - before starting its own inevitable decay into corruption and psychopathy.
The EU-Russia and US-China would be of the same broader conflict. Both the US and China are corrupt but at least in a China the politicians are the owners so they can more easily act in their own interest (less agency cost), the US has a competing oligarchy which leads to looting. There is a right-wing CIA cutout Theilverse faction putting together a bit of a coup and I guess once they are in control the plan is to use Anduril, Palantir, and PMCs to end the looting and create a parallel system of governance / military. I don’t know if that’ll be enough to keep US hegemony, but given the options I guess they’ll think they have to try.
China is very much incentivized to wait which we are told we should interpret as weakness. I think being able to take the hits and wait for more advantageous circumstance is a sign of strength. We’re told that the fact that neither Russia, China, or Pakistan will give Iran nuclear weapons is a sign that they are scared, I think that ignores the fact that these conflicts are serving their goal of wearing down the west. If they succeed they might win WWIII without much of a fight.
you think the EU will declare war with russia? they will not do it formally, but who knows if they will send troops.
you think russia will invade attempt to EU? if so, you're delusional
I searched the brand on the internet, but nothing turned up. Just Slovenian shops selling that same model at a similar price. [1] This seemed strange to me.
So then I screenshot one of those pages and search via image. Turns out that you can buy the exact same scooter on TaoBao for 952 RMB. (~114 EUR.) [2]
This is an absolutely ordinary situation. It was much the same when I was purchasing a bike for my kid -- 300 EUR here vs. 250 RMB there, for exactly the same bike. The purchasing power gap between USD|EUR and RMB is immense.
(I try not to talk about it too much, because it's the sort of thing that really upsets politicians and local vendors, and they'll want to find a way to make it more painful. It's a secret "life-hack" but for real.)
[1] - https://www.telekom.si/e-trgovina/sport-in-prosti-cas/skiroj...
[2] - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?abbucket=5&id=869342176534
Is it unlikely? Maybe, but also it has happened enough times that it's probably worth paying attention here. Relevant on today's front page https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44638580
You can't even trust what's printed on the ICs. Seriously, look into chip counterfeiting, it's a real problem.
That's why active components from Digikey and Mouser are so much more expensive than what you see on Amazon or eBay. They can trace the components back to the fab where they were made. You pay more, but you know you're getting what you ordered.
Do I trust it to work safely in my use case? Yes.
Other than people that buy from actual specialty stores, that's basically how buying anything works these days. You use your best judgement and continue on.
When you use counterfeit power components like SCRs, the risk you take is burning down your house with your family still inside.
Hey, it's your call. You're free to use what you like. Just don't say we didn't warn you.
Did they change the Taobao listing? The price is lower still and the scooter is not at all similar.
There's a reason the "shocking" examples they give in this article are now things like "kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length, which cause a trip hazard." China is an export economy and takes this stuff pretty seriously, which is why I also think articles like this are mostly about manufacturing consent for future actions. We gotta get ready for the next war - Ukraine and Israel are getting so boring!
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood...
Even mainland Chinese themselves don’t trust Chinese products, meanwhile they are flooding every country around the world with poisoned garbage.
It takes a simple Google search to find recent examples and I’m not even going to bother posting examples because it’s so easy to find.
Same materials, same machinery, same workers, same packaging. Different factory exit.
This is why these Chinese sellers have become so popular - although in some cases, yes they are cutting corners - the main reason why they can sell the products so much cheaper is because they cut out a number of middlemen.
The person who imports the product into Europe has to make a profit. The person who brings it from there into your country and distributes it has to make a profit. The retailer has to make a profit, on top of paying their staff and landlord. It all adds up.
I would always recommend buying recognizable brands for anything critical. Otherwise it's basically a lottery. Quality control for brands, not to mention customer support, might feel like it leaves a lot to be desired. But it's still light years ahead of un/rebranded Chinese goods.
Since we have no choice, and the odds of coming out ok (if not exactly winning) in this lottery are not that bad, it's a workable situation. But because we have to replace things so often, I'd say we don't save much money - compared to western prices for the brands I mean. Compared to Vietnamese prices, we definitely save money. I'm not happy about the waste created, but at least we're in the country where everything goes to get recycled already.
On the other hand, there are also good quality Chinese brands (Dong Chen power tools, for example, or Timemore coffee equipment). But they're not that cheap.
They weren’t developing brand because they weren’t developing products.
It's also hard to manage things in countries where you aren't.
The importers that find these goods, buy inventory, sell locally for a markup, and provide warranty service are providing a valuable function in the economy and have earned some markup.
There are a few good ones, but they had to do what was necessary. For example, to increase the appeal of electric vehicles - they hired German industrial designers from European automakers.
The few ones that come to mind are Huawei, DJI, and arguably Xiaomi. Then, of course, you have niche companies with great products that market mainly through influencers, such as Bambulab. There are also plenty of niche products from Chinese brands with high quality.
But the vast majority are sloppy, lack "good taste" (which is subjective to culture), compete mainly on price, and from my understanding, they haven't developed their own identity - or at least popularized it in Western countries.
For example, Japanese companies' marketing, and even the marketing in Japan, has an appeal to Western audiences because of cultural exchanges (from products to media for many decades). It's unique and original to them, and Western audiences cherish it.
People always state this as if it's a gotcha, but there's almost zero large western companies that don't have Chinese people or companies in the loop somehow, whether manufacturing, materials, or even just everything except branding.
We live in a globalised economy. I bet if someone was setting up a very large plastic manufacturing plant in Germany, there's a very high chance they'd hire Chinese experts to help set it up, or even to run it outright.
I can't speak for the other people, but in my statement, there was no gotcha or hidden meaning. But I can rephrase it: there are more costs to break into a market other than a low price. That works, but only goes so far, and will depend on the type of product.
> We live in a globalised economy. I bet if someone was setting up a very large plastic manufacturing plant in Germany, there's a very high chance they'd hire Chinese experts to help set it up, or even to run it outright.
Yes. This is confusing because you're agreeing with me.
There are also markets where the markup on brand names is insane. For example: take a water pump, then brand it an "aquarium water pump", and suddenly you can charge 4x more for the same thing. Here even bad quality Chinese products win out because the cost is so much less (and it's not even certain that the quality is inferior since the brand names are also made in china).
Finally, I can't stress what a negative purchasing signal "smart"/IoT features are for me. Perhaps some people love having online accounts for their lightbulbs and waiting around for the manufacturer to brick their devices, but it's not my cup of tea. Chinese devices often either lack smart features or use Bluetooth + a very basic app with no logins required. Another win.
Well, even from the same factory, different levels of quality control are done, and different materials are used. For example, the last few days I've been researching a cordless drill. It seems that Total/Ingco are Chinese brands made in the same factory (they just change the plastic color and logo), and it also seems highly likely that the factory also makes DeWalt. However, while the DeWalt drills look very similar, they're also visibly higher quality plastic, and when I found a comparison video of the three, the DeWalt was also more powerful, had additional features and was just clearly the better choice.
On the other hand, it's about three times more expensive and the consensuses seems to be that Total/Ingco are not terrible - probably fine for a homeowner who does occasional handiwork. Personally I went with a DongChen drill and using it for a few jobs I think I made a good choice. It's strong, feels heavy and solid.
However, I've also got a couple of small Total items like a current tester pen, and it's fine. Lasted a few years of occasional use so far.
Will you be the next bezos? No. Will you make a living with little effort and little smarts? Probably.
The problem is that Chinese companies ignore EU laws , taking away customers rights. And local companies overcharging, but providing said rights or at least being held responsible, if they don't.
Both ends of an extreme. It's terrible.
I seriously doubt you can buy such a battery for 952 RMB.
The Taobao link you shared leads me to a 'not found' page.
One thing to watch out for on Taobao, even for legitimate sellers: a listing will often include a main item and several accessories, all as different variants of the same product. So a single listing might include variants for:
- a scooter with battery
- a spare battery
- a charger
- a wing mirror
If you are looking at the price, be sure you have selected the variant that matches the thing you want.'
Source: I lived in China for 9 years, and have placed hundreds of orders on Taobao (including replacement Li-ion batteries for two Vespa-style scooters).
> they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products
Doesn't most of our economy feel like a scam?
It seems inevitable, when dominant economic frameworks treat consumption as something which must be endlessly stimulated (at ever-increasing prices), instead of stimulating production, forcing cutthroat competition in areas where there is currently little, and letting the unprofitable rent-seekers and parasites get flushed out.
Yeah, it’s an institutionalized scam that’s increasingly dysfunctional and absurd.
It’s only cutthroat capitalism for the less well off majority that make up an increasingly small part of the economy. By dollar value the economy is dominated by financialization and speculative asset bubbles.
On the other hand China is the manufacturing giant of the world, and being able to source components directly in small quantities at a reasonable price is probably very useful to small businesses, so I hope that can continue somehow.
We need to fend this off, even if it means people will have to pay more for individual purchases, because the larger population does not understand macroscopic effects. China is a danger to the EU, and also the US (even though the US currently is mostly dangerous to itself).
I can set myself on fire trying to keep Europe warm... or I can not.
I bought LED string lights from a local company (Clas Ohlson in Sweden), and very similar looking lights from Temu.
Clas Ohlson: wires isolated from each other and running perfectly parallel to each other through the entire string. A nice power converter. Lights all identical, properly secured. Made in China.
Temu: wires nearly touching each other in multiple places. No power converter, you plug the thing directly into the power socket. Lights embedded every which way. Made in China.
Quite often those "unreasonable fees" are for quality control
I am simply trying to explain the otherwise baffling leniency toward very hostile actors like (current) America or China: because this goes directly against its core values, one of them being to always promote free trade. This is even stated as one of its "aim and value" in [2].
I am no Eurosceptic, I think we should just acknowledge and challenge the EU's current limitations if we want to move forward.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism
[2] https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor...
This has been the case for over a decade now. As a consumer, ordering directly from a Chinese seller/manufacturer was always met with intense scrutiny and taxation the moment consumers would have to pick up their package at customs. It has been made economically unreasonable for the average person to do these kind of things, which is why ...
> they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products
This has become a notorious trend within the EU. Unlike in the US, where consumers could order directly from Chinese vendors without being taxed, the EU implemented policies that only benefitted the cheeky business (wo)men who wanted to make a quick buck by playing middleman.
In my opinion, this pseudo-protectionist behavior by EU lawmakers was a key reason for Amazon's uprising in Europe. Amazon offered the cheap Chinese products the population wanted, yet undercut local middlemen at large.
Which is exactly why they are trying to close the "loophole", if the poor people can go directly to the source, big government can't put its hand in every single process to tax it in order to pay for all the bullshit. The industry is complicit because they get to make more profit this way, the whole system is corrupted anyway.
As for the things that are made in the EU, they are barely affordable for the middle class already, precisely because there is very little value creation and it's get taxed to the ground. The ones suffering the most are the poor, who are often the ones actually working to create said value, preventing access to those cheap goods is just another way to force them to stay poor.
I personally buy a lot of electronics from AliExpress. But I have enough experience and knowledge to know what not to buy.
Some of the electronics available are downright dangerous - particularly super cheap USB chargers.
We have regulations and standards for a reason.
What kind of experience do you mean here? Do you go by brand name, or specific clues in product images? Because I have a hard time trusting the product descriptions on these massive online marketplaces (Amazon included).
Tear downs on YouTube are invaluable.
Unless I’m explicitly buying something to take it apart I avoid anything mains powered.
You can replace the plugs and cables with compliant ones. And you can fix the lack of proper earthing. But who knows what other problems there are.
For household items, I do tend to stick to known brands and would probably avoid places like Amazon.
In the U.K. we have various high street shops such as John Lewis that do have reputations to maintain.
I would also avoid anything that has large lithium batteries.
Some basic heuristics can go a long way. Does a £2 USB-C charger that claims to do 200W make sense? Probably not…
This should not be understood as anti-China but should apply to all products on the EU market. China has some well-respected quality-conscious consumer brands (e.g. Hifiman, Fenix Lights, DJI, Anker, Govee...) but it seems a lot of smaller companies there put easy revenue over any concerns for quality.
There's been a problem in London with cheap no brand Chinese bicycle batteries catching fire. Quite a few people dead.
Now Temu, Shein, lots of the shops on Alibaba, Amazon and eBay... they all push stuff into Europe that violates these standards and can be sold cheaper as a result.
That is bad on three sides: First, for the dangerous stuff (such as the toys with choking hazards, lead paint or the "chinesium" Big Clive routinely pulls out of shady eBay sales), that's directly endangering our people and/or our environment. And second, all the stuff made and imported that violates requirements is undercutting our domestic production and economy who does have to follow the regulations or otherwise it gets fined. And finally: a lot of the stuff particularly on Temu and Shein is outright garbage, falling apart after a few uses - and then it ends in our landfills and waste disposals. A horrible waste from an environment perspective, especially given that a lot of the junk comes in via air freight of all things!
I understand that and I agree that it should be regulated. But on the other hand, I can order 50 zippers on Temu for 2$, and if I go to a local store they sell one for 10$. I bought both, and they are exactly the same.
So one zipper on Temu costs 4 cents, versus 10$ in a local store. That's 250x more expensive. Doesn't seem reasonable.
They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty, and should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable.
Good luck doing the same against Temu.
In addition, you pay a markup at the physical store for stockkeeping. Yeah sure, I can order the small capacitor for some fried PLC adapter on Amazon. No doubt. But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it.
And with the Temu one I get 250 units for the same price. I don't know how often you break a zipper, but 250x in two years sounds like a lot :-).
> should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable.
I understand what you are saying, but honestly I doubt they check every 10cm of every zipper for traces of lead (or other). If there is ever an issue, maybe (?) they will recall them somehow, but I probably won't ever know (say I paid cash, they don't have a way to contact me at all, and with a credit card I'm not sure if they can / will find my contact ever).
> But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it.
Sure! But the fact is that I'm absolutely fine waiting 2 days if it costs me 250x less. Actually with Temu it's more a few weeks, I would think? Still worth it for zippers.
If the zipper was sold for 1$ in the local store, that would be different. But 10$? At this point I just don't want the zipper at all. So in a way it's not really "Temu vs local store". If I don't get it on Temu, I don't get it at all.
I didn't say I would get 250 of them, I said the price was 250x more expensive in the local store.
> These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people.
Would you buy a coke for 55$ if I told you "look, these manufacturers pay taxes and employ people"? Or do you have a notion of "this is too expensive for what it is"?
> This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions.
Just like you didn't read properly that I was not actually ordering 250 zippers, you didn't read my first message properly. Let me write it again slightly differently:
I do agree that it needs to be regulated. But on the other hand, sometimes it seems so extreme that it's difficult to believe that the local store is not abusing. At this price, I just can't afford the zipper.
I'm not sure how it works in the EU, but here in the USA I'd guess that the vast majority of those zippers are just ordered from Temu and marked up. And good luck holding the "seller accountable" if the zipper doesn't end up meeting your standards.
You can have similar crap on AliExpress but the quality at AE it's far better for electronics at least.
However, I find it hard to believe that because of that QA, a 0.04$ zipper now costs 10$. And the fact that the 60cm zipper costs 10$ and the 70cm one costs 12$ tells me that the local stores (or whatever intermediate responsible for the price) are simply abusing.
In other words, it feels like there is a responsibility on the side of the local stores: I want a zipper, I can't afford 10$ for one, so either I don't get a zipper at all, or I get it on Temu. In any case, the local merchant is screwed. Now if I get a zipper on Temu, suddenly I see all the cheap crap I can order from there, and I presume my local merchant abuse on their price in exactly the same way (which may or may not be right). So the local merchant "pushed me" towards Temu with their abusive prices.
Again: stock keeping costs money. That is what you primarily pay for. Real estate isn't cheap, especially not in urban areas, so a lot of products just get dropped outright and the products that move very slowly but can't be dropped (what would a sewing store be if it didn't carry a few zippers?) get marked up to pay for the space they consume in storage.
You'll have to do better if you want to justify that those 10cm are worth 2$.
I just chose a specific example (the zipper) where I think the local merchant clearly abuses, to say that it goes both ways. I'm fine paying more if it helps the local merchant, but I am not fine getting screwed by them. I won't buy a bottle of water for 200$, even if it's sold at a local store.
I said 10$, but it depends on the length. So 60cm is maybe 10$, 70cm is 12$, 80cm is 13.50. So you would say that testing the 70cm variant of the zipper is worth 2$ more than testing the paint on the 60cm variant?
My point is that at this price, if I don't get the zipper on Temu, I don't get it at all. I won't pay 10$ for a zipper of this quality.
As you showed with slightly longer zippers.. I notice with car fob remote batteries. An 8 pack is $12 at the store. The same brand, a single will be $5. A 2pack is $7. And the 8pack $12. Do you really need to make $4 on selling me a single? I know shelf space is valuable, but the same store sells things for $1 too on another shelf so apparently <$1 profit shelf space is possible.
I agree that the results can be sometimes weird, sometimes annoying, and sometimes outright dumb. But I'll rather pay that price than not have USB-C, two year product warranties, no lead in kids' toys or access to clean and safe drinking water.
On both sides of the pond.
There was, and still is, no reason that Apple should have been forced to adopt USB-C with the proliferation of Lightning on the market - a connector with significantly more lifetime and reliability than USB-C. If you want a device with USB-C, go pick an Android device that ships with USB-C. Forcing these regulations has just forced everyone to sell the same amorphous brick of glass and sand under the guise of "consumer choice".
(And remember: It's okay when Google goes anti-competitive, but it's not okay when Apple does it! --Margrethe Vestager)
The EU should enforce much larger warranties than the current 2 years.
The higher the price, the longer the required warranty:
A 1500€ electric scooter should have, say, 7 years warranty. A car, 10 years - after that date, the battery interface becomes open source hardware for easy OEM replacement.
Results:
+ Sweatshops exploiting people in miserable conditions are no longer profitable
+ Protects the environment via resource utilization reduction
+ The EU can compete in manufacturing - via quality - with competitors that mostly offer cheap labor.
It would also stifle innovation. Foldable phones, or any new technology, always starts out expensive and less durable. There's no way they could give a longer warranty on a foldable phone than on a cheap normal phone. Note, I'm not really a fan of foldable phones but it's the best example I could think of right now. You can replace it with almost any new technology.
A regulator can tell temu/shein/amazon/etc to take down the seller, or even the brand and the next day two new ones prop up selling the product from the same factory.
To my knowledge, no one has solved this yet. Maybe a good use of AI? Unfortunately not monetizable really.
So you mean basically like Amazon?
If that game remains afoot for too long, the buck stops at the distributor - who can't hide from the EU behind ever-shifting randomly generated brands.
Then it only makes sense to do larger shipments to distributors, and those are easier to track and intercept.
But it’s not like the war on drugs every succeeded, and that never had to worry about economic viability.
Once the hold time reaches a year, the single person will be enough to handle the orders that still remain...
There's an interesting dilemma here you're not considering. Any more red tape here would make it extremely difficult for legitimate small businesses to sell anything online.
Simple solutions that you have just thought about usually don't work, especially when the topic seems like it might employ several researchers and lawmakers.
If your business is to source from all 6-letter random “IOWURP Products”, then quality checks becomes your job. Unhappy? Then do like all other distributors: Only accept direct deliveries from Sony and Beats.
That there may be some regulatory capture where the fines don’t really matter, but we have a system in place to deal with fraud and unsafe poor products.
Amazon/Temu etc would just prove legally that they are not the ones selling the product.
Moreover, there are physical stores that also sell this "dangerous" stuff. My friend worked in one and she complained all the time on chemical odour these items were generating.
Why stop those of us who want to buy it?
I’d be ok with dangerous products being available for purchase if they’re labeled as such.
This person's source of income is repairing consumer electronics.
Costco was just an example of curation. But yes, it's more of "good value on acceptable quality" not high quality itself.
Also, idk what marketing Costco does. They earned their reputation with me.
I still buy EU arts materials that are more expensive than Chinese products, but that are (at least supposedly) better tested for toxicity.
I noticed in the past year or two art stores like Casa Piera/Arte Miranda have had more products like watercolor paper and paints from China. I hope new regulations will make sure these are compliant with EY regulations, without raising the price to consumer too much.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FrugalFemaleFashion/comments/1gsy4h...
Combined with the USA's preparation for war on China, the Russia invasion in Ukraine, and the Trump trade war: It seems the EU is aligning itself with the USA againts China, and has to sell this to an anti-Trump citizenship
Yes. Chinese direct sales have no taxes (as they divide orders to below the taxable amount). So, taxes are coming to Chinese goods and this is the start of that process. It makes sense to remove that loophole that gives advantage to foreign made products over local ones. So, the goal seems a good one.
Meanwhile, in the current context, I'd like to see Europe taking a more ambiguous position: Invite all of the non USA first world to increase trade and strengthen stability, giving an alternative to Trump. This would also mean a more ambigous signalling to China. After the NATO budget increase (which for abbig part means buying USA weapons), this kind of action is Vasal Europe crawling back to the safe bosom of King USA.
It's not like local business were not already selling wrong and counterfeiting products.
Cheaper isn't always safer.
We really overrregulate things here in the EU. It was a great run, we've had access to great Chinese stuff for a while now. Maybe around 2007-ish the direct-to-consumer imports started.
It has really helped me to acquire tools and eletrical components cheaply, where no other supplier was able to offer it at a good price or at all. Hopefuly the EU will fail to keep this in check so that the party can continue.
I have no idea what the trip hazard on that is, or how many children tripped on these types of strings. Do you? It seems to me that any opinion without this information is not an informed opinion.
Additionally, pretty much all of the other examples seem far more serious. Quoting only that one bit is not a fair representation of the article on that account either.
Additionally additionally, some corporations not following the regulations is just unfair competition. Not hard to be cheaper than everyone else if you decide to dump slop with toxic chemicals. That some of the regulations might be bad is somewhat besides the point here. There is a democratic process for changing them if you don't like them.
I'm so cynical and passionate about this overregulation because I've had to deal with it myself in aviation and medical. When you read the regulations, everything makes sense. It basically says: "reduce risk". In reality, companies spend (in my experience) insane amounts of resources on paperwork to prove they are safe, which is completely detached from reality. It's a paper excercise. It's bureaucratic bloat that slipped in over the years. It seems to make sense at the surface, but actually is counterproductive.
Why? Any sane business wants to minimize risks at all costs. Those who don't, will at best get a terrible reputation. There should be regulation of course, just no overregulation. It's like bloated code. There should be code of couse, just no needless abstractions as it just drags everything down.
It's just that I'm seeing a pattern where we are cynical towards other countries and are simply too self-congratulating with our own regulatory situation. As a continent/union we're showing signs being a bad sport. Instead of saying how bad everybody else is, why not make good stuff ourselves instead?
We can't compete because our energy is insanely expensive. Zoning and compliance get in the way of business. Lack of raw resource acquisition (we have to import raw materials). High taxes. Labour shortages, overly strong unions. All the ugly things we'd rather not talk about, the "boring" problems that have to be adresses one by one. We're inefficient and cannot compete on many things globally and have to rely on imports. That inefficiency needs to be adressed!