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Comment by wavesounds | Hacker News Reader

I've never understood this so called 'talent war' There's millions of people unemployed in this country, why not find which ones of them know basic skills like math and science and train them in house to write python or java or whatever? Or if your companies to lazy to train people then pay high enough salaries so these people go train themselves. I think its fine to bring in a few extra smart immigrants to provide a different perspective but lets be reasonable, ordinary Americans built this country and they're the reason Silicon Valley exists in this country and not someplace else. If there's a lack of talent then I think CEOs should reinvest in ordinary Americans and not take these shortcuts. You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now.

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> "There's millions of people unemployed in this country, why not find which ones of them know basic skills like math and science and train them in house to write python or java or whatever?"

Because the lead time to go from "has basic math and logic skills" to "competent programmer" is on the order of years, if not over a decade.

Do you want to put someone on your payroll for years before you see one tiny iota of productivity out of them? Or worse, have them be a negative drain on your productivity?

> "but lets be reasonable, ordinary Americans built this country and they're the reason Silicon Valley exists in this country and not someplace else"

This isn't true. The US has been extremely reliant on skilled immigration as its power base throughout the 20th century. Immigrants are over-represented in academia as well as all corners of basic research, they are also over-represented in the industries that spawned Silicon Valley (i.e., the defense and aerospace R&D that gave birth to both the funding, cultural, and educational foundation that birthed the semiconductor industry, followed by the software industry).

> "You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now."

Then do it. I challenge you. Starting today, from someone with the proper high school level education but no relevant college education (i.e., no STEM degree), develop someone into a competent programmer capable of writing production-ready code by the end of October 2013.

Put your money where your mouth is.

I got my first programming job in high school after about a year of learning how to do the job. I certainly wasn't the world's best programmer, and have improved significantly over the years, but I still was able to get the job done.

The problem, as highlighted by your post, is that companies only want to hire the best of the best. I understand why, but it sets us up with a situation where even those who know how to program (poorly) cannot find work, exacerbating the talent shortages.

There isn't even a lack of talent that is already trained IMO - this is anecdotal, but I know of many unemployed coders who are capable and the education system is churning out thousands more every year. I find it hard to believe that corporations cannot hire them.

In actuality, there is a lack of folks who want to pay market price (which is going up) for programming talent even if their corporation is quite profitable. Requesting higher caps is a way to conveniently dodge the market forces at play.

I wonder if you have ever tried to hire a decent programmer or tried to train one.

On seconds thoughts it is actually true for every profession. Ever saw a waiter smearing the shit on a table rather than actually wiping it clean? How much time you think one needs to learn how to clean a frigging table?

Hiring a good professional or training any XYZ to become a good professional, is really not something I will bet my business on.

I think CEOs should reinvest in ordinary Americans and not take these shortcuts. You could easily teach someone to code by October 2013 if you started now.

What startup is going to wait over a year for their prospective coder to be able to do his job? This is something the education system should be doing. If it isn't, by all means fix it, but don't make startup CEOs spend over a year training employees.

I was referring more to the googles and facebooks of the world. This recent HN post made me think outside the country was the last place start-ups would look for employees: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4346351

Why would googles and facebooks do that? It's not their core and everyone wants to move fast.

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