Swift is useless outside of macOS/iOS dev… the thing doesn’t even have namespacing. I don’t know for what reason someone would use it outside for Apple environment.
I don't know if it's still the case, but there was an annoyance where you couldn't have a type with the same name as the package. But that is hardly a lack of namespaces.
However, Apple's history is very much stacked against Swift becoming a mainstream language outside of Apple's platform.
HN majority doesn't like hearing that ladybird et al might just be wandering around, even if the goal is catnip for the bleachers, and we should be skeptical this is the year of multiplatform Swift, because it wasn't last year if you actually tried it. Or the year before last. Or the year before that. Or the year before that year. Or the year before that one.
I also think it’s separate from the dream of “multiplatform Swift”. For that you need a healthy package ecosystem that all works cross platform, Swift doesn’t have that. But a lot of Ladybird is written at a low enough level that it won’t matter so much.
So best case we're looking at: Swift isn't ready yet, the next major version will be, and we can't build UI with it, so we'll put in the effort in to bootstrap a cross-platform ecosystem and UI frameworks. Or maybe we'll just do our business logic in it? It's a confusing mess that is irrational. Even with great blessings of resources. ex. $X00M that Arc has obtained one incremental platform after a year. And "all" they had to do was Swift bindings for WinRT and connect it to the existing C++ engine.
All of this is easy to justify if we treat it as an opportunity to shoot for how we wish software could work in theory, instead of practice. I hope I'm wrong but after being right the last few years, I'm willing to say it's naive wishcasting out loud, even though its boorish. I see it as unfortunately necessary, a younger me would be greatly misled by the conversations about it on HN. "We've decided to write the browser in Swift!" approaches parody levels of irresponsible resource management and is a case study in several solo engineer delusions that I also fall victim to.
It's genuinely impossible for me to imagine anyone in my social circle of Apple devs, going back to 2007, who would think writing a browser engine in Swift is a good idea. I love Swift, used it since pre-1.0, immediately started shipping it after release, and that was the right decision. However, even given infinite resources and time, it is a poor fit for a browser engine, and an odd masochistic choice for cross-platform UI.
The Swift business case is that in many situations native is strongly preferable than cross-platform. Excluding some startups that wants to go to market super fast and consulting companies that have to sell the cheapest software possible, usually the benefits of native outweighs the ones of cross platform.
For this reason now there are plenty of companies of all sizes (faangs included) that build and maintain native apps with separate iOS/Android teams. There are very good business reasons to learn Swift or Kotlin in my opinion.
In the long run, it would be good to have high-level languages other than Java that have garbage collection (at least optionally) and classes, and that are still capable of doing cross-platform system development. I don't know if Swift fits that bill, besides cross-platform ecosystem (a la Java), submitting the language for ISO standardization (not just open sourcing one implementation) would be a good indication of being serious about language support.
C#
Ladybird as a separate project has the goal though of something usable in the shorter term. So similarly with switching to 3rd libraries for things I don't think it makes sense to spend potentially years first building the language before building the browser.
It is unfair to compare a twenty first century language with one from the 1980s
Rust is the proper comparison
The only advantage Swift has is an easier learning curve , but the ergonomics of Rust are far superior than Sift's
I’ve written both Rust and Swift while being an expert in neither. I wouldn’t say Swift has no pluses in comparison, reference counting is often a lot easier to reckon with than lifetimes, for one. I’m actually curious what a large multithreaded Swift codebase looks like with recent concurrency improvements. Rust’s async story isn’t actually that great.
I agree. People's perspectives differ. It abhor `async/await` in Rust. It has poisoned the well IMO for asynchronous Rust programming. (I adore asynchronous programming - I do not need to pretend my code is synchronous)
But that is taste, not a comment on poor engineering!
The lack of the borrow checker in Swift is what makes it approachable for newcomers, as opposed to Rust which is a harsh mistress.
But reference counting is such a silly idea. Swift really should have a garbage collector with a mechanism or subset to do that very small part of programming that cannot be done with a garbage collector. That would have been design!
I fear that Swift is going to get a borrow checker bolted on - and have the worst of both worlds....
The great thing about automatic reference counting is you can elide the incrementing and decrementing a lot of the time. Stronger guarantees, such as saying "this object is single-threaded" lead to even more optimizations.
https://speakinginswift.substack.com/p/swift-meet-winrt
https://speakinginswift.substack.com/p/swift-tooling-windows...
Now that’s not an engine but the UI.