JPMorgan to sell customer transaction data to advertisers | Hacker News Reader

JPMorgan to sell customer transaction data to advertisers

media.chase.com

154 pointsRajT8860 comments

I used to work in this space, so will explain more about what this actually is.

"Card-linked offers" have existed for a while now, and I know they are supported by at least the Mastercard, Visa and AmEx networks. How it works is:

1. A company that provides the card linked offers goes out and markets to brands that they should provide an offer. The idea is that someone who uses their card at this brand will then get cash back or some discount (e.g. "Sign up to get 10% cash back when you buy from Whataburger.") For the brand it's basically just a new marketing channel.

2. Importantly, the way I've always seen it work is the user must sign up for the discounts, or otherwise sign up for something that says "I want to be eligible for any discounts your platform offers". That is, the cardholder sees a list of promotions, and they then must tap on each one that they want to subscribe to. After that they will get discounts if they shop at those stores.

3. The card-linked-offers provider then gets notified by the card networks when there is an intersection of (a) a cardholder that signed up and (b) shopped at a store that offered a discount.

So to me it looks like Chase is essentially just taking this in house. Whether you think that's a good or bad thing is up to you, but just know that lots of other companies already did this, and these card-linked offers have been enabled by the major card networks for some time.

Vertical integration in this space sounds like a really bad thing to me ("bad" in the sense of "likely to lead to the creation of products that erode human dignity in new and interesting ways").

Where does it say they will sell the data? I missed that in my reading. My interpretation is companies will say "show my product to users with this criteria" and it will. This is the same as fb and Google ads, right?

>> Where does it say they will sell the data? I missed that in my reading. My interpretation is companies will say "show my product to users with this criteria" and it will. This is the same as fb and Google ads, right?

This is IMHO an important distinction. AFAICT Google doesn't sell data to advertisers, they target the ads for the advertisers. It's still annoying, but it's way less offensive than all the data sharing/selling that goes on.

Well, Google does sell user data (see Squarespace acquisition [1]) but sure not yet to an advertiser.

IIUC, it's a much more vetted system than most online advertisers do. Chase has some screenshots [2] which would imply they're not grabbing data at runtime from a 3rd party and it seems very similar to their experiences "adverts" [3].

I think PayPal's Offers is probably the best parallel. [4]

[1]: https://support.google.com/domains/answer/13689670?hl=en

[2]: https://www.chase.com/mediasolutions/solutions

[3]: https://www.chase.com/personal/events/experiences

[4]: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/offers

If Google sells a part of its business to another company then the data required to operate that business must be included in the sale. That goes without saying. And a lot of companies "sell user data" by that metric.

Also, there is no indication that Squarespace has received any user data that is not required for them to take over Google Domain operations (so they would get a user's domains, billing info, etc but not their Google Maps location or their search history).

How would Chase 'show their product' to anybody? They are not a media platform. They do not display ads. Would they start displaying targeted ads when I log on to pay my credit card or check my bank account balance? Or do they set some kind of profile id in a cookie that other sites would read and track once I have logged off

Virtually all financial institutions show ads and offers on their various properties (websites, apps, in person etc).

It’s an old and big business that even uses the same terms as other ad platforms (banks are publishers, advertisers buy placement, etc).

I’ve been involved in the industry for a while and I’m not seeing a single “new” thing in this announcement.

I guess that would explain why I'm not seeing them -- I always use ad blockers, and steer clear of company-supplied apps. If ads should start getting through, they've lost a customer.

I wasn’t aware of this new feature, but yesterday I paid for Top Golf with my Chase card. I opened my app later and at the bottom below statements and balance etc it showed an ad for 15% off Top Golf. So if this is just a little brand carousel at the bottom and isn’t sharing my data with those brands, it’s a little tacky sure but not outrageous.

There are "Chase Offers" for your cards and accounts that give an extra 5-20% cash back if you click to activate them prior to buying it with that payment method - they're often brick and mortar retailers and restaurant chains. In addition to a "Chase Rewards" area that is for redeeming points, booking flights/hotels directly, and earning extra points with online retailer referral links.

Because it's an editorialized title, which is explicitly against the rules. @dang will correct it (maybe).

Yeah nah they're not selling the data, they're using the data to sell their customers.

Are they launching this in the UK, too? I see no mention of that. Perhaps due to our tighter privacy laws, they would likely have to make a few modifications (such as making it opt-in, clear what it does, etc.)

> As the only bank-led media platform of its kind, Chase Media Solutions combines the scale and audience of a retail media network with the exclusive advantages of Chase’s first-party financial data, institutional credibility and precise targeting capabilities.

This seems to be a first, though a lot of transaction data is already leaked to wallet providers (Google, Apple, Samsung) when you add your cards to those digital wallets in exchange for added convenience or offers. Note that these wallets get access to ALL card transactions, including physical card swipes, and not just those conducted via their platform.

> a lot of transaction data is already leaked to wallet providers (Google, Apple, Samsung) […] Note that these wallets get access to ALL card transactions, including physical card swipes, and not just those conducted via their platform.

That’s not true at all for Apple Pay: “Apple Pay doesn’t collect any transaction information that can be tied back to the user. Payment transactions are between the user, the merchant and the card issuer.”[1]

The system is designed such that transactional information goes directly from the bank’s server to your device, and doesn’t pass through Apple’s servers (unless you’re using Apple Card)

[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/sec82e7bc3f8/...

Good to know that Apple does not collect and store this data. The original issue, however, is that the banks continue to share this data with wallet providers. I have seen notifications on my phone wallet when using the physical card, which I found suspicious.

From the brief research I did trying to validate your claim, it looks like there's a second feature you can opt into that tracks transactions similar to a budget app. But as far as I can tell that's a distinct thing from the payments part.

That is not what they said. If they meant that, they would say: "Apply Pay doesn't collect any transaction information." They explicitly added the clause: "that can be tied back to the user". That means they do collect transaction information.

As they are only bound to providing a interpretation of "that can be tied back to the user" that is "technically correct", like how a monkey paw only needs to technically grant your wish, all they have to do is not link the transaction to your name and they have technically fulfilled their end of the bargain. That their highly paid legal team deliberately did not disclose higher standards means we should not engage in wishful thinking. They can tighten up their legally binding language if they want some trust.

> Note that these wallets get access to ALL card transactions, including physical card swipes, and not just those conducted via their platform.

Do you have a citation for this? I see no evidence of this in the user-facing parts of the Google Wallet app, nor do I see something like that in the terms.

With apple wallet, you get a notification when there's a transaction on the card, even if it's not related to the applepay at all.

I’ve never seen that. I do see alerts from the bank’s app itself, which makes sense since that’s how I configured it.

Are you sure you’re getting alerts through Apple Wallet and not just the bank app?

It’s real but depends on the issuer. I see it with Amex but not Citibank for example.

I get alerts via Apple wallet regarding my Fidelity cash management card. Those do not come from Fidelity's app. (Fidelity has amazing banking products btw, but they underinvest in app development.)

> Do you have a citation for this? I see no evidence of this in the user-facing parts of the Google Wallet app, nor do I see something like that in the terms.

No, this is from my personal understanding. Please feel free to correct me if you think this is incorrect.

Do you have a source for your claim that wallet providers get access to all card transactions? Looking at the wallet, my linked cards only have the data that came though the mobile payment.

It’s not a first at all. Lots of financial institutions have similar platforms. There is a whole ecosystem of data providers that can get your transaction data for everything from fraud prevention to loyalty programs

This makes me curious on what type of data my bank (and others) share with companies involved in these ad/offer-type systems.

This announcement doesn't seem like it's anything new on the consumer side, instead it's a platform for brands to access the data from their ads/offers, create campaigns, etc.

This really, really needs to be opt-in.

Call your congressional rep. I’m leaving Chase immediately as a customer over this, but that doesn’t scale.

I’d be shocked if you can find a major bank that doesn’t have a similar program.

Credit union with Zelle support for the Zelle support. Fidelity for everything else (brokerage, retirement, checking account), Wise for international FX digital wallet.

(work in financial services, so I am familiar with the product landscape)

Do you use credit cards? If not, just know you are leaving cash on the table. Stores have to pay high transaction fees on “premium” cards, which leads them to raise their sticker price. So if you pay cash, you’re basically subsidizing cash-back cards.

If I spend $2k a month on my card and get 1.5% back, that’s $30 a month. It adds up.

Just you wait until lots of places wise up to whole thing and start ambushing you with “btw, we have a 2.xx+% surcharge for credit card tx” at the register. Happens quite a lot lately…

This is good. It pushes people to use cash, debit, or soon, FedNow instant payments.

It happens, but mainly in places like gas stations. And payment processors (Visa, MasterCard) don’t allow businesses to charge different prices to different cards.

> don’t allow businesses to charge different prices to different cards.

That changed a few weeks ago

"Both card networks also agreed to cap rates for five years and remove anti-steering provisions. Merchants will have more discretion to offer discounts, or impose surcharges on cards with higher interchange fees."

https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/mastercard-visa-rea...

Credit unions

Most credit unions get their technology supplied by one of several “bank in a box” vendors such as fiserve or fis. Those companies have relationships and technology integrations with many data brokers and media firms like Cardlytics.

That’s not to say they do have programs like this but only that they have the capability, usually just by making a phone call to their account manager.

I wonder if this is a reaction to the push to reduce interchange fees for credit cards by creating a new revenue stream that offsets the proposed changes. See https://handsoffmyrewards.com/

I'm surprised that no one has tired to do away with receipts. Give vendors a cut on their transaction fees if they integrate. Pitch it to customers as going paperless and giving users more granular data about their spending habits.

> “Our deep understanding of consumer spending across categories has driven us to reimagine what retail media networks can offer,” said Rich Muhlstock, President of Chase Media Solutions. “Like retailers, we have first-party data and a dedicated audience. But what sets us apart is the unrivaled scale and insights from our customers – having long-served as a trusted guide for their financial decisions."

And now using that trust to make even more money.

I don’t like it, but I expect it might be similar to how currently in the Chase app every time an ACH posts from Schwab pulling into my retirement account, in the Chase app an ad for their retirement account pops up.

Previously posted here as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39917520

More discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39920111

I sure hope they have a way to opt out of this. I find these business practices abhorrent.

You like opt-outs? I prefer good privacy laws – GDPR FTW!

This should be illegal.

Any way to opt out?

I reached out to their twitter account.

It seems unlikely to be covered by the existing privacy controls which just promise to "limit" the information shared with third parties, without detailing what those "limits" are.

I don't have high hopes, tbh.

>Any way to opt out?

Leave your Chase cards at home

Theoretically you should be able to opt out of at least some of it, though it does opt you out of chase sharing your data in all cases and not just for this one product (which honestly is probably what everyone wants).

From their FAQ page, you need to call them: https://www.chase.com/digital/resources/privacy-security/pri...

I just want to get all the people communicating "special offers"-type arrangements in a room and tell them their messaging sounds unbelievably creepy.

Anyhoo, other than privacy concerns, my issue with this is a scenario like buying a UTI kit at the drugstore for a family member and suddenly getting all manner of urinary and kidney health ads nonstop. Like, I certainly don't LOVE 99.9% of Brands I interact with regularly, because most of them, from clothes to meds, are things I buy because I have to. Even my favorite Brands run the risk of the "oh god the Thai restaurant knows my takeout order before I place it because I come here too much so now I have to stop coming here for at least 6 months" effect if they get too clingy, and anyone else is basically instant "NOPE."

There are “people who improperly use data that’s being given to them, like Plaid,” Dimon told analysts. [0]

Amazing how openly CEO's like Dimon will fear-monger about start-ups, when in reality they're just not satisfied with their own team's progress in doing the same exact thing. But of course it's OK when they eventually launch the product.

[0]https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/37293/dimon-scared-shit...

Plaid wouldn't exist if there had been practical open banking APIs.

Remember their original use case was to offer third-party services something with a little more guiderails than "enter your ACH info and cross your fingers" and a little less clumsy than "we'll take that info and make some test deposits that you have to read back to confirm it's your account."

laughs in CCPA

Seriously though, the opt out mechanism for this will probably be required under CA law.

Most of those state privacy laws will not do much when a federal law governs the situation, e.g. Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) in this case.

This is pretty disgusting. Does anyone know if Amex does something similar?

> Does anyone know if Amex does something similar?

If Chase does this successfully, we can expect every other bank to follow suit.

I use to work at a regional bank and I remember being in discussions on how to do this in 2017-2018.

It didn't take a genius to figure out that banking data is quite valuable.

Honestly, I assumed given those meetings that this was already common practice with selling to data brokers.

Those "how to do this" meetings were not technical. "How to do this without causing a PR shitstorm" would have been a working meeting title. I guess it was all shelved until the 2000lb gorilla bank said lets do it. Or it was just being done quietly previously.

With JPM moving on this a bank will not be able to afford to not.

Yes absolutely. Nearly every major financial institution has a similar platform.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com