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Comment by j7ake | Hacker News Reader

Just write zero as a protest for the dark patterns.

Zero is common in many countries outside of USA by the way. In California and other states you cannot claim workers are being paid below minimum wage.

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I’m uncomfortable with tipping zero, knowing how servers are paid in the US. But it also seems wrong to tie the tip to the price, when the work is comparable.

I’m going to think about an alternative minimum tip, maybe something like:

  - $1 per item for a takeout counter
  - $5 per person at sit down service
  - $10 for an average delivery

If everyone did that, a couple of things would happen:

  - servers would have to push for higher pay
  - restaurants and bars would raise their prices

The advantage is this would be predictable and understandable for everyone. In Europe and elsewhere, reasonable pay is assumed, and you tip rarely for exceptional service. That’s really where things need to go.

I like the way it is in Europe. Another good thing, at least in Germany, is that the menu prices already include taxes so I know exactly how much I am going to pay for the meal. I think this is true for all the European countries.

I have heard people saying that without tips we would get crappy service. In my experience, tipping is pervasive to this extent only in the US and I don't see any difference in service quality on average. In fact, compared to some countries like Thailand, US service might be considered terrible!

> I have heard people saying that without tips we would get crappy service.

I don't think the math supports this either.

If you can do a 50% as good job and work two tables; even if tips decrease by 50% it's technically good for business as 2 meals were served with one employee. Obviously if people are debating between 10% for poor service and 15% for great service then the employee comes out ahead as well.

Tipping originally existed because it was a way for black americans to work without being paid a wage.

Where I live, the minimum wage for servers is ~$35,000 and goes up every year, which is a better wage than in much of Europe. It has done nothing to dissuade tipping on top of that, which can often double their income.

I like to tip based on the local minumum wage (or on the higher end if the service was exceptional, my own wage) and how long I have sat at the table for.

So if the minimum wage was $10/hour and I have sat at the table for 45 minutes, then the tip is $7.50. I don't feel i should be paying the servers wages directly, but at least this seems like a fair rate to me for doing the portion of that hours work.

I mean, everyone knows that tipping culture in the US has become unhealthy (it probably always was). Many many people would prefer to end it.

The only way tipping is going to end, is if people stop doing it. There's not going to be some higher authority who one day says "OK now it's socially acceptable and no one's going to be upset if you stop, the world will get better, no friction required."

You have to stop, tell the business why you're stopping, and tell other people to stop.

We're all uncomfortable, but including the wait staff. It will never change unless someone does.

If the only thing you can do is simply stiff the waiter unfortunate enough to be working your table today maybe the change isn't yours to make.

I 100% agree that simply not tipping, and not doing additional avenues of change (such as intentionally patronizing restaurants which are no-tip / living wage), then really the root might actually be greed/selfishness.

You know servers in California are paid better than servers in France?

Does that help you feel more comfortable?

I will try inputting 0 and then pay in cash next time. I don't want to punish the servers.

I usually give tips in cash anyway so that the server doesn't have to share it with their boss or declare it.

Servers sharing tips with management is illegal in the United States at the federal level, and can and should be reported to the appropriate labor protections board. In California, that's the California Labor Commissioner's Office, every state has their own.

Meanwhile, the boss still has their hand in the tip jar until a formal inquiry can get started and completed. Maybe in a year or so they’ll rule in favor of the employee and the employer will have to pay up… eventually. In the meantime, the employees still have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Even though something like that is illegal, our current system often denies justice by delaying it.

that's fantastic. in Manitoba tips are legally the property of the store owner and they do not have to share them at all if they don't want to.

that’s right, stick it to the minimum wage worker for the employer’s (or likely corporate’s) decision in payment processing platform.

keep going to the businesses, of course. you still want your tendies.

At a certain point "take the ball and go home" becomes the rational decision if a player in the game isn't being treated fairly. In this case, tipping zero becomes the simplest option.

Tips encourage artificial menu pricing, which disguises the intended price of a service.

Customers are being socially pressured into tipping more than they otherwise would want to. Social pressure is not a fair mechanism in a market.

Another pattern is where servers are expecting 20% tips in addition to 5-10% "Employee Healthcare/Benefits/Wage" Surcharges. Sure, health insurance is a critical need but that should be baked into the price of the food being sold. Patrons are then pressured to effectively give a total 25-30% for service, in addition to the advertised price of food. Insane.

Sorry that servers are caught in the cross-fire on this but their employers decided to use them as fodder.

"Take the ball and go home" in this case would be cancel the order and leave. Stiffing the staff is... another thing.

I don't think characterizing it as "stiffing the staff" is accurate. It's the staff's employers who are doing the stiffing.

and your patronage that keeps it going

Why is "stiffing the staff" bad but surprise pricing to customers is tolerable?

If the pricing practices are disclosed up front, yeah that's clearly stiffing the staff, but that's simply not the case here.

I'm referring to the game where you're lured into a service with an ambiguous ruleset for pricing.

The pricing rules aren't disclosed until it is time to pay. When it is time to pay, you're now given an increasingly difficult puzzle to solve in order to tip what you intend to, without manipulation.

Expecting anyone to solve this puzzle is unreasonable.

I'm not defending surprise pricing or tipping at all. But up until you pay you have the option to not pay. If this is a big concern of yours you should take that option.

I agree that if at any point you suspect the pricing isn't fair in any transaction, it's up to you to leave. If someone checks Yelp and sees red flags on tipping but still decides to go and complain about it, they're being a jerk.

But many sit-down restaurants don't give any indication about the tipping procedures until after a meal is served and consumed.

so instead of tipping zero, since that implies the ability to decide, tip something that might be less jerk and make the decision to not return, perchance?

and if you aren’t given a choice, and it isn’t advertised, well, that’s a different predicament. same solution. you aren’t going to refuse to pay, so refuse to return.

Exactly. It’s 100% up to the customer to pay the employee, **not** the employee’s employer.

Why don’t people understand that?

Because this is unique to America and (mostly) restaurant service?

And because it’s ridiculous. I want to eat, not figure out how much to pay your employees. Part of a business’ job is to abstract the business-y stuff away from me so I can just enjoy a meal.

Otherwise, if it’s a hassle, I’ll just cook more at home. I can cook just as well, I eat out for the experience and to not deal with hassles.

you pay the employer, the employer pays the employee, so if you don’t tip the employee but you do pay the employer, who are you hurting more?

In the short term, the employee. In the long term, as people leave due to lack of tip pay, service degrades and customers stop showing up due to the degrading service, the employer. Tipping as a requirement needs to go. Pay them a minimum wage because it shouldn’t be the customers problem. If a business owner cannot do that, the business should not exist.

so hurting the employee is just, as it hurts the employer eventually?

almost sounds like people are forced to go to these places.

I never said it’s just. Don’t put words into other peoples mouths if you intend to argue in good faith. If you want systemic change, then that is what I believe has to happen. Please provide a better idea

exactly what was already said, systemic change. don’t go where you don’t support, rather than half-ass it.

hopefully you can understand how, based upon having already explained that, it would be possible to make an assumption in good faith. since you didn’t seem to notice the first time, it would appear to be a passive rejection.

shall we continue? assuming you also wanted to discuss in good faith. who wanted to argue?

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