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In addition to the constant barrage of tip requests, the percentages keep going up (tipflation). My dad taught me over a decade ago that you tip 10-15% based on service. A few years ago, it became 15-20%, then 18-22%, and now we're expected to tip 20-25%, and at more places than before.

I'm not opposed to helping people out with tips (it's not the waiter's/waitress' fault they're paid garbage), but when companies are making record profits by jacking up prices and gimping on paying their workers more, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Having been paid a tipped wage, I have for half a century tipped 20%, almost invariably without regard to the service. For the first thirty years, this was thought to be on the generous side, now I guess I'm a piker.

I will say that on a recent vacation to Italy, where tipping seems to be just not done--none of the credit card slips had a line for tip--I found I didn't miss it.

[Edit: added missing "on" to last sentence.]

>it's not the waiter's/waitress' fault they're paid garbage

To be fair, it kind of is. There are other job opportunities for people.

I don’t know why you are getting downvoted. I was a waiter. It’s absolutely a choice. There are many other jobs in a restaurant and you can choose which one you want to do. I was a cook, waiter, dishwasher, busboy, and host, all at one restaurant.

It's neither the wait staff, nor the business. It's market forces. Wait staff are becoming increasingly unskilled labor (partly due to technology in restaurants, partly because wait some staff have become shitty/belligerent and people realized they don't actually care if someone calls them "honey", it's not worth $20 of tips to them...) I'll happily take my meal with a "go f yourself" it it means i get $20 off.

This, I'm also trying to learn say no

Especially in places where there's not even real service (e.g. having to dispose of dishes yourself etc)

But at the end, it is a structural problem. If the job can't pay a minimum to live a normal life, then the business should be restructured to allow fewer but better jobs, in my view.

if you're open to a suggestion you never asked for -- consider reading the book "When I say no I feel guilty" It really really helped me, personally. I hope it's a good suggestion for you too.

Thank you. Noted.

Pretending that every person in the world can work whatever job they want is worse than sugar coating reality. It borders on malicious deception to me.

Sure, I'm all for taking your fate in your own hands. But most people in the world work because they have to make a living, and can't freely choose their job.

If they even have the luxury of a formal job with a minimum of workers rights, that enables them to maintain themselves and e.g. have health insurance.

>Pretending that every person in the world can work whatever job they want is worse than sugar coating reality.

Sure, except I did not say or indicate anything remotely that extreme.

Many people equate being a server at an average restaurant to an unskilled minimum wage job (and it is). In that same general category you have:

- Cashier

- Retail worker

- Telemarketer

- Receptionist

- Warehouse labor

None of these people are forced to take food service jobs, there are other options in the same skill/pay category.

To me, it is far greater malicious deception that we have a category of business that is essentially allowed to advertise false pricing, where as a customer you are expected to routinely pay much more than the stated price for things.

If a cup of coffee should be $6, instead of $4.50 plus a tip, just make the coffee $6 and pay the worker minimum wage.

> To me, it is far greater malicious deception that we have a category of business that is essentially allowed to advertise false pricing, where as a customer you are expected to routinely pay much more than the stated price for things.

I agree with you on that.

"Malicious deception" was not intended as a personal attack, I understand if it sounds like that. I tried to express how far off from reality this is when looking at all kinds of work, not only waiters.

I can sympathize with preferring being a waiter to e.g. unskilled factory or warehouse jobs.

There are just so many break-neck types of work that destroy the health of anyone doing them...

in short: my point wasn't much more than "markets aren't fair and some people have to choose between bad options"

Can you share your vision for a world where everyone takes these opportunities and no one is a waiter? Do we not have restaurants? What about other low wage labor? Do people working for sweatshop wages in developing countries also have other opportunities they're not taking or is something else going on there?

You're extrapolating far too much from my post.

But for starters, it would be perfectly viable for people to be waiters, and to even have tips be a component of their wage. But there needs to be the recognition that the tips still need to be earned. That can start at the more legacy value of 10-15% for simply doing a decently basic job, and ramp up from there. However today we are seeing a progression towards some of the these workers expecting >20% for absolute minimum effort.

The primary alternative would be that the restaurant charges the actual price required to pay people a competitive wage, which is the basic approach in almost every other type of business.

Tipflation is a good way to put it.

The menu prices/product prices DO adjust to inflation. They aren't in perfect lockstep sure, but the restaurant/biz needs cost covered/some margin to stay in business.

In theory, 15% 30 years ago is the same 15% in 2023.

Just write zero as a protest for the dark patterns.

Zero is common in many countries outside of USA by the way. In California and other states you cannot claim workers are being paid below minimum wage.

I’m uncomfortable with tipping zero, knowing how servers are paid in the US. But it also seems wrong to tie the tip to the price, when the work is comparable.

I’m going to think about an alternative minimum tip, maybe something like:

  - $1 per item for a takeout counter
  - $5 per person at sit down service
  - $10 for an average delivery

If everyone did that, a couple of things would happen:

  - servers would have to push for higher pay
  - restaurants and bars would raise their prices

The advantage is this would be predictable and understandable for everyone. In Europe and elsewhere, reasonable pay is assumed, and you tip rarely for exceptional service. That’s really where things need to go.

I like the way it is in Europe. Another good thing, at least in Germany, is that the menu prices already include taxes so I know exactly how much I am going to pay for the meal. I think this is true for all the European countries.

I have heard people saying that without tips we would get crappy service. In my experience, tipping is pervasive to this extent only in the US and I don't see any difference in service quality on average. In fact, compared to some countries like Thailand, US service might be considered terrible!

> I have heard people saying that without tips we would get crappy service.

I don't think the math supports this either.

If you can do a 50% as good job and work two tables; even if tips decrease by 50% it's technically good for business as 2 meals were served with one employee. Obviously if people are debating between 10% for poor service and 15% for great service then the employee comes out ahead as well.

Tipping originally existed because it was a way for black americans to work without being paid a wage.

Where I live, the minimum wage for servers is ~$35,000 and goes up every year, which is a better wage than in much of Europe. It has done nothing to dissuade tipping on top of that, which can often double their income.

I like to tip based on the local minumum wage (or on the higher end if the service was exceptional, my own wage) and how long I have sat at the table for.

So if the minimum wage was $10/hour and I have sat at the table for 45 minutes, then the tip is $7.50. I don't feel i should be paying the servers wages directly, but at least this seems like a fair rate to me for doing the portion of that hours work.

I mean, everyone knows that tipping culture in the US has become unhealthy (it probably always was). Many many people would prefer to end it.

The only way tipping is going to end, is if people stop doing it. There's not going to be some higher authority who one day says "OK now it's socially acceptable and no one's going to be upset if you stop, the world will get better, no friction required."

You have to stop, tell the business why you're stopping, and tell other people to stop.

We're all uncomfortable, but including the wait staff. It will never change unless someone does.

If the only thing you can do is simply stiff the waiter unfortunate enough to be working your table today maybe the change isn't yours to make.

I 100% agree that simply not tipping, and not doing additional avenues of change (such as intentionally patronizing restaurants which are no-tip / living wage), then really the root might actually be greed/selfishness.

You know servers in California are paid better than servers in France?

Does that help you feel more comfortable?

I will try inputting 0 and then pay in cash next time. I don't want to punish the servers.

I usually give tips in cash anyway so that the server doesn't have to share it with their boss or declare it.

Servers sharing tips with management is illegal in the United States at the federal level, and can and should be reported to the appropriate labor protections board. In California, that's the California Labor Commissioner's Office, every state has their own.

Meanwhile, the boss still has their hand in the tip jar until a formal inquiry can get started and completed. Maybe in a year or so they’ll rule in favor of the employee and the employer will have to pay up… eventually. In the meantime, the employees still have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Even though something like that is illegal, our current system often denies justice by delaying it.

that's fantastic. in Manitoba tips are legally the property of the store owner and they do not have to share them at all if they don't want to.

that’s right, stick it to the minimum wage worker for the employer’s (or likely corporate’s) decision in payment processing platform.

keep going to the businesses, of course. you still want your tendies.

At a certain point "take the ball and go home" becomes the rational decision if a player in the game isn't being treated fairly. In this case, tipping zero becomes the simplest option.

Tips encourage artificial menu pricing, which disguises the intended price of a service.

Customers are being socially pressured into tipping more than they otherwise would want to. Social pressure is not a fair mechanism in a market.

Another pattern is where servers are expecting 20% tips in addition to 5-10% "Employee Healthcare/Benefits/Wage" Surcharges. Sure, health insurance is a critical need but that should be baked into the price of the food being sold. Patrons are then pressured to effectively give a total 25-30% for service, in addition to the advertised price of food. Insane.

Sorry that servers are caught in the cross-fire on this but their employers decided to use them as fodder.

"Take the ball and go home" in this case would be cancel the order and leave. Stiffing the staff is... another thing.

I don't think characterizing it as "stiffing the staff" is accurate. It's the staff's employers who are doing the stiffing.

and your patronage that keeps it going

Why is "stiffing the staff" bad but surprise pricing to customers is tolerable?

If the pricing practices are disclosed up front, yeah that's clearly stiffing the staff, but that's simply not the case here.

I'm referring to the game where you're lured into a service with an ambiguous ruleset for pricing.

The pricing rules aren't disclosed until it is time to pay. When it is time to pay, you're now given an increasingly difficult puzzle to solve in order to tip what you intend to, without manipulation.

Expecting anyone to solve this puzzle is unreasonable.

I'm not defending surprise pricing or tipping at all. But up until you pay you have the option to not pay. If this is a big concern of yours you should take that option.

I agree that if at any point you suspect the pricing isn't fair in any transaction, it's up to you to leave. If someone checks Yelp and sees red flags on tipping but still decides to go and complain about it, they're being a jerk.

But many sit-down restaurants don't give any indication about the tipping procedures until after a meal is served and consumed.

so instead of tipping zero, since that implies the ability to decide, tip something that might be less jerk and make the decision to not return, perchance?

and if you aren’t given a choice, and it isn’t advertised, well, that’s a different predicament. same solution. you aren’t going to refuse to pay, so refuse to return.

Exactly. It’s 100% up to the customer to pay the employee, **not** the employee’s employer.

Why don’t people understand that?

Because this is unique to America and (mostly) restaurant service?

And because it’s ridiculous. I want to eat, not figure out how much to pay your employees. Part of a business’ job is to abstract the business-y stuff away from me so I can just enjoy a meal.

Otherwise, if it’s a hassle, I’ll just cook more at home. I can cook just as well, I eat out for the experience and to not deal with hassles.

f-

you pay the employer, the employer pays the employee, so if you don’t tip the employee but you do pay the employer, who are you hurting more?

In the short term, the employee. In the long term, as people leave due to lack of tip pay, service degrades and customers stop showing up due to the degrading service, the employer. Tipping as a requirement needs to go. Pay them a minimum wage because it shouldn’t be the customers problem. If a business owner cannot do that, the business should not exist.

so hurting the employee is just, as it hurts the employer eventually?

almost sounds like people are forced to go to these places.

I never said it’s just. Don’t put words into other peoples mouths if you intend to argue in good faith. If you want systemic change, then that is what I believe has to happen. Please provide a better idea

exactly what was already said, systemic change. don’t go where you don’t support, rather than half-ass it.

hopefully you can understand how, based upon having already explained that, it would be possible to make an assumption in good faith. since you didn’t seem to notice the first time, it would appear to be a passive rejection.

shall we continue? assuming you also wanted to discuss in good faith. who wanted to argue?

When I'm confused, I kill no braincells, I tip 10%, so I just move the decimal and done. If I'm annoyed, I tip $0. I think in the US most people don't have a frame of reference of what it's like to not have this social pressure to tip. You feel much better when you tip without being forced. Also, as a foreigner, American workers and businesses have no idea how vexing it is for a tourist to land, have a budget and realize that they're 30% short because of tipping everything from expensive Uber rides to hotels and luxury spas. This is basically the US tourist tax, even though all our money is going to already stay there.

There a probably quite a few uber drivers that hate me now, because they try to give me the all star ride, have a conversation, hear all my compliments (bc they keep nagging if everything is to my liking, if I want music or the AC adjusted), and then get zero tip. I absolutely do not feel an ounce of remorse. Why? Because I have also come to understand that they're not really providing quality service because they care. They're all gaming the system and manipulating customers. here's an example: I once needed an Uber from NJ to NYC, urgently. One quickly responded, arrived, started chatting and being friendly, started the trip and after I loaded all my stuff into the car, she looked at the destination and told me they would not drive to NYC, that I should get out. She left and did not cancel the trip. I had to contact Uber to get refunded. My point is, the 5 star friendliness ended the second I stopped being profitable for her, and at that point I stopped mattering.

So yeah, smile away, no tips unless I am wowed beyond my expectations.

> the server is impatiently watching you

yyeeaahh but that's not really my problem though

you've got to keep in mind, this approach to tipping is the employer setting the customer against the employee - the employee might think you're their foe, but the truth is, it's both of you against their bosses. they can be pissy about it all they like, but you don't have to be responsible for their lack of perspective, and you definitely don't have to cave to peer pressure. if anything, you should be very very suspicious of situations where you're pressured to pay, period.

>The server shoves the handheld tiny device in your face presenting with 3 options: 20%, 22%, and 25%

That would be the last time I eat there. And I wouldn't blame the waiter but the manager. The wage should be very low if they resort to such patterns in order for personnel to not leave them. If I pay for my food, why doesn't he pay his employees?

Two bonuses to this are the check round trip time is less and the server doesn’t have private access to your card to clone it.

Cash eliminates both and I saw one group use it to avoid the automatic added on gratuity for bad service.

As another example somewhat reflective of a position of privilege this just pushes me further and further towards "fine dining".

In daily life I cook simple and (extremely) healthy meals at home. Even with the increasing price of groceries this can be accomplished at very low cost. I've never tabulated it but my total grocery spend is likely somewhere in the range of a few hundred dollars/mo (max).

I've always been taught to see eating out as a luxury. An event that should be enjoyed and experienced as such - not a daily thing. When my social circle and I eat out it almost always feels like a celebration (or actually is) and between this approach and our overall financial status we have little (if any) price sensitivity. This happens a couple of times a month on average, with the occasional quick lunch being at what are probably best described as "fast casual" restaurants where you prepare yourself to deal with stuff like this and can tap some tip amount, eat to survive, and just get out of there. It's much easier to accept when it's not a daily shake down.

In all of the establishments we patronize you get professional, extremely polished, and highly skilled wait staff - what I refer to as "six figure servers". The overall experience is night and day from the moment you walk in and these establishments will never deploy these methods because they know you're there largely for the experience - the total package. Something like this completely ruins it at a key point in time (the end of the meal). In the US at least (at these establishments) getting handed a terminal with a series of hustles, bad UX, etc would completely ruin the impression and overall "feel" of the business. I wouldn't come back to such a place and I doubt many (or any) of their target customers would.

While you still hear horror stories of bad tippers at these establishments more often than not the experience is so professional and of such high quality (incredible) we find ourselves tipping 25% MINIMUM - which on a meal at least $100/person means a server on a decent night is walking out with at least $1000. 2-3 "good nights" a week (50 weeks) is $150k/yr gross. Throw in a few occasional large parties and/or big spenders (wine, etc) and they are often looking at $1k-$2k (or more) in tips per table. Even when split with other members of staff everyone is well beyond minimum or even living wage.

I much prefer spending ~$500/mo eating out a couple of times at very high quality restaurants vs eating out a couple of times a week and dealing with stupid stuff like this. You learn to actually appreciate it vs being some routine and mundane thing and you end up with the kinds of experiences that with memory only get better with time. My friends and I frequently recall specific meals (which are truly events) and talk about them years later.

Well worth it and everyone comes out further ahead. The sit down "terminal hustle" places need to exist for a variety of reasons but my friends and I aren't spending our money there.

I only tip in cash, so just put in zero.

I might try that next time