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Comment by ekianjo | Hacker News Reader

The Paris metro is a miserable experience when you compare to what you have in Tokyo.

Every metro feels like a miserable experience when compared to what you have in Tokyo. This extends to trains in Japan in general. Transport is expensive in Japan, but quality is unmatched on all aspects I can think of: timeliness, reliability, service, comfort, security, cleanliness, extensiveness,... From what I've heard, working for JR (Japan Rail) is considered a honor.

I think the Paris metro is average-good compared to my experience in other countries. It has its quirks, and strikes are a thing but I have used it extensively (I have lived in Paris for several years) without big problems, and I arrive most of the time within a few minutes of the expected time (in Tokyo, that's seconds!).

> working for JR (Japan Rail) is considered a honor

Also the thing to remember is that part of the reason JR works so well is because of the defined career path.

For example, you don't just become a Shinkanzen driver, you have to follow the career path:

    - Work two years as station attendant
    - Work two years as a conductor
    - Work two years as a standard (non-Shinkanzen) train driver

Only then can you progress to the Shinkzansen training and examination.

The result is you have people working on the railways who are intimately familiar with both the system as a whole and the impact they and their actions can have on others. Which is a very Japanese thing, life is not just about you but your impact on others around you.

When I was in Tokyo a couple of years ago I didn't find transport expensive.

As a foreign tourist from presumably from NA or Western Europe, then it will seem pretty affordable compared to your home country. Relative to Japanese cost of living and average income however, certain lines and services can be pretty expensive (particularly the shinkansen and certain JR services).

> Every metro feels like a miserable experience when compared to what you have in Tokyo

I’ve never taken it, but I’ll note I’ve never personally taken public transport to match Bangkok’s BTS and MRT, which are both excellent, although it’s very irritating they haven’t implemented cross-system billing yet

Unless you're traveling in pick hours and the train is so overcrowded that you can't even lift you hand inside...

Unavoidable except if you price it up so much that people start using the car again. For the same reason why there will always be be traffic jams no matter how many streets there are and how many lanes they have.

You're right.

And I'm not even talking about how the Paris metro is narrow, dark and stinky.

The Paris area train system (if you consider metro + other trains) is reliable inside Paris, and the very close suburbs, but as you get further away it gets extremely shitty. In some cities (with RER) daycare will refuse families where both parents work in Paris because they know they can't reliably be on time to pick up the kids and will end up with late parents.

Also metro stations in Paris are so close it's very slow. The only exception is line 14 which is the most recent. It's also the best line but it's the only one.

Overall, they're making a big fuss about the Grand Paris and while it is a big deal, it's not going to make it the best transportation system for cities of that size. I'm just really catching up on fixing the very broken transportation system for anyone living outside of Paris itself - which is only 105m2, very small for the population living in the greater Paris area. It's roughly the size inside the Yamanote line.

First, it's unfair to compare any subway to Tokyo. Tokyo's public transit system is on a different planet. It will always win by a landslide.

Second, the Paris metro is dramatically better than New York's in terms of pleasantness of the experience and arguably better than London's and DC's, both of which are pretty pleasant by any standard that does not include Tokyo.

It's precisely because Tokyo is the best that we should compare everything else to it. That's the standard that every urban planning expert and functioning council should try to achieve.

Tokyo metro isn't best. I would say the Shanghai[1] one is. And it grows with every year.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Metro

Nah...Shanghai metro is no where near Tokyo in terms of pretty much every aspect. The only thing it is better is price (starting from 3 CNY, or about 60 JPY, whereas Tokyo metro starts from 180 JPY).

It has better toilets, infrastructure, newer trains, much bigger (thus stations are almost always nearby), and integrated as a system as opposed to multiple metros in Tokyo, and so on.

Better toilets? When was the last time you came to Tokyo? Just before a bunch of big international events leading up to the Olympics, there was a crazy (re-)building boom for public toilets. And, if I know anything from experience in mainland China, their initial build is "wow" and (lifetime) maintenance "sucks". The public toilets will stink like most big cities in China after a couple of years. Where as Japan will put incredible effort into maintaining their public toilets.

Newer trains? Yeah, sure, because the network is newer. I can recall riding the maglev in Shanghai from the airport. The first thing that I noticed: The seat covers were filthy. So typical mainland China.

"[M]ultiple metros in Tokyo"? Use the Suica/Pasmo payment card. Hardly anyone thinks about what operator they are riding in 2023: They are thinking about destination and convenience. And, be real: The reason why Tokyo has so much complexity is the age and history of the system. (London, Paris, Berlin, and NYC have similar stories.) If Shanghai was rich in 1920 (well, it was, but that wealth was controlled by colonialists) and building metro lines, it would surely look different today.

Better toilets? Seriously? The toilets in the Shanghai Metro (or in China, in general) are among its worst features. Many are quite dirty and smelly, and most, if not all, lack soap and toilet paper.

Regarding infrastructure, yes it's new in Shanghai, but new != better. For example, the station floors may look shiny in Shanghai, but they become quite slippery on rainy days—a non-issue in Tokyo. Another example is that many trains in Japan have different air conditioning in different cars even within the same train, a subtle but welcome feature for those sensitive to temperatures—no such thing in Shanghai. Lastly, unlike Japan, metros in Shanghai/China still lack public timetables in 2023. A timetable can save you a lot of time by allowing you to plan your trip.

I agree that the integrated metro system in Shanghai is better for travelers.

It is too bad that the Seoul metro doesn't get similar coverage. I guess there are fewer Seoul geeks here compared to Tokyo geeks. The metro, including suburban and high-speed rail is "knock your socks off" good.

I was told that there is a hotline for depressed Japanese when they come to Paris and find out that it's not like the stories they are told.

"Paris Syndrome is a psychological condition experienced almost exclusively by Japanese tourists who are disappointed when the city of lights does not live up to their romantic expectations."

The Japanese Embassy in Paris now has a 24-hour hotline for Japanese tourists suffering from the syndrome, whose symptoms can range from depression and anxiety to acute delusional states, dizziness, sweating, hallucinations and "feelings of persecution."[1]

[1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/french-toilet-story_b_2422398

Is there a similar condition for visitors to Times Square in New York City disapointed at not being mugged or seeing a rat?

I am not sure what one even has to do to get mugged in NYC. And I am saying that as someone who has walked across Manhattan through Times Square on multiple occasions after midnight, all while very properly inebriated.

However, there is imo no way to avoid seeing rats if you used NYC subway more than once and had your eyelids up.

I'll be the first to admit the city cleaned up a lot between my first vist there in the late 1970s and more recently a year or two ago ... that said, for whatever reason, a lot of non American first time visitors seem to still carry that '70s image of NYC as a crime hub.

Might be all those 'classic' NYC films exporting a vibe.

I still haven't seen an NYC rat chase a cat while carrying a pizza though, admittedly I'm an infrequent and short term visitor.

I was a frequent visitor to Manhattan in the 2000s, and I generally felt very safe at any time in midtown, and the upper east and west sides. My recent visit last year (the first in 10 years or so) was shocking in how much Manhattan had deteriorated in terms of safety. I don't know what it was like in the 70s so I can't compare.

I’ve heard of a reverse cultural phenomenon of people visiting rural villages in England and being surprised at the prettiness of them, where most English people would find them mundane.

Kidlington, which is remarkable in only its banality, for example: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-37820663.amp

I’ve read there’s a cricket in Times Square.

> "feelings of persecution."

This is almost certainly due to the rudeness of store and restaurant employees during tourist season.

I can believe that - hoping to experience it first hand in the near future. Still, was impressed by Paris in general (or at least, was more impressed than I expected to be!)

Always go to France with low expectations. Makes for a better experience.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. The Paris metro is about as fast as the Tokyo metro, its just that the Tokyo metro is a larger and denser system, since it is serving a larger and denser city.

Tokyo's metro region is smaller than Paris and fits more than 3 times the people. The metro's top speed is up to 5 times as fast as Paris's metro. It's on a completely different scale. And given that Paris is Europe's second busiest metro system it tells you something.

It is unfortunately a bit hard to compare the length of the system, since it's hard to distinguish between the local lines that are not operated by tokyo metro vs. the longer distance ones.

Overall, your post is thoughtful.

Can you help me to understand this part?

    The metro's top speed is up to 5 times as fast as Paris's metro.

I would not call the Tokyo subways lines (both companies) very fast when riding a local train. I went to Paris for a week and found the metro lines fairly similar.

You are correct, taking the reference speed as measurement is not a valid line of reasoning.

The average speed is higher, the speed is lower the closer the stations are together, but the speed also depends on the line; i.e. the Ginza line added ATS(automated train stop, added in 1993). I just learned that Paris' Line 14, that went into service in 2022, also drives at accelerated speeds, it's the first line with ATS in Paris. I think the main problems that need to be addressed with respect to higher speed transportation are the following:

1. the breaking system needs to be assisted (ATS)

2. the railway needs to be replaced and reinforced

3. turn angles can't exceed a certain degree

1 and 3 are a design issue that isn't really addressed in older metro system, and 2 is probably a political problem. Contrary to my previous belief it seems that France is at least trying to address some of the points in their metro extensions, which is nice.

The tokyo metro is much cleaner and does not smell like piss, has none of the homeless population living in and you can be safe in day and night. Only a blind person with a blocked nose could pretend its about the same.

Tokyo metro has its drawbacks as well, namely, I found the stations rather difficult to navigate for foreigners. Of course this being Japan there are many nice people eager to help everywhere, but (again of course) they don’t speak english.

Tokyo has signs in English everywhere. It is difficult to navigate the first time you are looking for a connection but after a few days you get used to how things work and how to find your way. There are also tons of apps you can use to help you.

In Tokyo it's simple for a foreigner, open Google Maps, enter your destination, the app gives you the number where you have to go, you take your train, and that's it.

No different than any other cities.

Last time I was there Google Maps weren't good at navigating through the stations. And the signs at the stations were difficult to follow compared to other metro systems I'm used to.

I'm sure everyone is able to figure it out, but IMO they could take some inspiration from e.g. London or Paris.

One tiny thing they could do to improve metro stations: Put big stickers on the floor that guide you to an interchange or an exit. Most stuff in Tokyo is "up" (overhead signs), but they could also use "down" to improve things. I was recently traveling on the metro in Kunming (Yunan Province, China), and I noticed they use the "down" part very well to guide you -- with Chinese and English. It was very helpful in more complex stations.

One more idea: Tokyo metro stations don't make a lot of use of colour schemes. I have used some metros that use very loud colour schemes all throughout the station to guide you to interchanges. Again: Very helpful for visitors.

It also helps to learn the Katakana alphabet, which is easy enough for any computer nerd that one can do it on the plane to Tokyo. You can then sound out the syllables on signs and know that アキハバラ sounds like "Akihabara" and thus you're on the right train.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana

You just need to learn that there are multiple metros and some JR trains, and then it will become easy to understand. Modern metro apps and maps can calculate the path using all of those without any problem.

I remember finding it very busy, but we’ll organise - helps that most signs are bilingual. And the station staff are really helpful if you look lost. The hardest part was the ticket machines but that’s common all over I find.

I really don't remember most signs being bilingual.

What year did you ride the Tokyo metro? Jesus, on most lines there are four languages -- Japanese, English, Korean, Chinese. And, the newest ticket machines have many, many more languages -- even Thai!

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