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Comment by pkd | Hacker News Reader

I was in Paris in July, and was thoroughly impressed with the metro system. I always had an impression that Paris was a dirty city by western-european standards but I actually found the metro stations incredibly clean (and I travelled on multiple lines and through hub stations like Chatelet). In comparison, my city, Ottawa, has struggled to get one line functioning reliably in almost five years of trying, and the stations are filthy by comparison.

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I work in rail software. One reason NA is moving slower than expected is software standards. No, really.

Europe does rail pretty well, all things considered. Well enough that companies (like mine) eventually get subcontracted to build things for the North American market as well. Problem is, rail is a highly regulated industry, which means lots of mandatory software documentation.

European countries all use the EN documentation standards. The US and Canada tend to use the IEEE-1558 and its ilk. Neither document is a subset of the other; there exists no easy list of differences between the two standards to allow compatibility.

So the actual software development goes pretty smoothly -- then someone realizes there's no standard-conforming documentation and the whole project grinds to a halt. Often for years, because the number of people who are fluent in writing docs for/translating docs between both standards in any given country, you can count on one hand. I am rumored to be one of them.

There’s also the other way around it, which is just allowing both regulatory regimes.

The FRA basically just did this for European rail vehicle standards, which are different than US ones significantly. The issue is that the US market is generally too thin to support US-specific passenger rail manufacturers who would happily comply.

Really! I could use a link if you have one.

Here's the final rule: https://railroads.dot.gov/regulations/federal-register-docum...

It mostly legalizes European trainsets with minor adjustments, though Japanese sets would need significant reworking since they follow yet another standard. But this is important, because an FRA-compliant vehicle at 220MPH basically does not exist, and those have become legal if in their own exclusive right-of-way; and alternative compliance trainsets can now operate with regular American freight trains below 125MPH, which is basically the entirety of the network today anyways.

Is this something that could be automated?

Maybe with a substantial investment into ML. I'm looking into this possibility myself, with a Django backend and a zillion possible fields to fill out.

That's just a Canadian problem. Canada is the most overrated of all the developed countries and once you travel you realize that even some developing countries are now better than that. The smugness and the sense of superiority they have at not being the US is delusional.

The US is like this too. Almost no American cities have reliable public transit, and even in those that do, like NYC or Chicago, the stations are pretty filthy in my experience.

Also, I feel like this is an unusually hostile comment.

Not just hostile, but an ironically delusional comment considering what you're correct in stating about the U.S, but also that Ottawa is a newsworthy exception among cities in Canada with municipal trains, save for perhaps the first week after Montreal's recent build.

To anyone who's "started travelling" (how smug), they'd realize that Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal, maybe even Calgary and Edmonton to lesser extents have viable or great municipal train systems. They aren't Tokyo great, or Paris great, but they are pretty good and usually clean.

Among developed countries, I can think of a few that since visiting, while novel, I've actively chose Vancouver over; other cities in Canada would probably not win out, but that's why broad statements about countries shouldn't be taken seriously.

Definitely. I live in Vancouver and it's quite good for North America.

There's also a decent amount of anti-public transit people here that tend to make their job a bit harder. I live in a part of town where almost everyone except me drives and I remember chatting to my neighbors when we had a transit funding referendum. The details are a bit hazy because I think it was around 2016 but in my area people were more or less unanimous when it came to preventing public transit funding.

I do have a few personal gripes about the new skytrain line being full at rush hour but for what it's worth I had the same issue with the main circle line in Tokyo. Rush-hour is rush-hour no matter what your method of transport.

Agreed on all fronts. Those Tokyo lines are insane at rush hour, and almost dead silent at every other time; it's kind of the nature of homogenous commute types, it's just hella more efficient to do it with trains than anything else we have. Thankfully, the new subway extension should help distribute people a little more evenly, and I believe TransLink is looking start running longer trains, which should provide a little more capacity at peak times.

I will say DC’s are pretty clean by US standards, although I might be biased living there. They have lots of cleaning staff.

DC has an advantage in newness and in materials selection (tiny tiles with lots of grout looks cool for 5 minutes), as well as having relatively fewer station layouts.

t. former NoVa resident

Putting station walls behind handrails, out of reach of graffiti "artistes", also helps.

Coping mechanisms always astonish me. No, it is not normal to lose function (passengers/square feet) over uncivil behavior.

The DC metro stations are very spacious. Been a long while since I lived in DC but they weren't crowded compared to stations in NYC or London.

It was specifically a Great Society program meant to contrast with Soviet metros and their ornate architecture. NYC and London have the issue where they were first generation systems trying to figure out what worked and what did not.

DC’s general height limits in conjunction with typical American SFH friendly zoning also do not help utilization.

1) It's not a cope, it's a compromise.

2) It's not uncivil, it's illegal.

What is so astonishing, and what is your alternative to this specific issue?

That’s america in a nutshell. We can’t infringe on people’s precious individual expression and self actualization after all. That said in the DC system, expense was traded off in favor of cleanliness and lack of crowding—the stations are enormous (and very costly).

As a newly-minted Canadian I've noticed that as well. I moved to Toronto from Istanbul five years ago and while I was away, Istanbul added 75 kilometers to its metro. That's longer than the entire Toronto Subway.

All this talk about being a world-class city, while nobody knows when Eglinton Crosstown, a "subway" line using streetcar ("LRT") tech that's been "in progress" since 2011, will open. Don't even get me started on SmartTrack :)

The term "World class city" is meaningless to people who aren't politicians or consultants pitching to the International Olympic Committee.

NYC and Chicago are dream cities for many, some Torontonians included. Does that mean that their transit stations aren't teeming with capybara-size rats? That they don't have problems with homelessness and poverty?

And I say this as someone who lives in the 'burbs and is upset that the LRT delays have continued as long as they have.

It isn't just a "Canadian" problem. You see that all over the USA too.

Also, why the hostility? I've never met a Canadian that expressed a sense superiority about not being part of the USA. I've met plenty who are proud of their national identity, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's quite admirable too, in my opinion. Nation-building isn't easy.

I am not the parent but the comment does have some merit (and I say this as a Canadian). For a lot of things we simply gloat that we’re better than the US and then end up thinking that our work is done.

Classic case is health care (‘look, we spend less than the US and have free healthcare’) where instead of looking up to countries with better healthcare outcomes than us, we look down on America and act smug. Other cases include our climate record, and post secondary education.

I am yet to meet a fellow Canadian who hasn’t complained about our health care system. It seems to be one of the main discussions around provincial elections.

This sounds like the UK NHS. The solution is simple (economically), but difficult politically: more money.

> Classic case is health care (‘look, we spend less than the US and have free healthcare’)

Who is saying this, other than low-information Americans on social media hung up on the word 'free'? Every Canadian knows that the reality is much more complicated with capacity shortages since Covid, and an opportunistic provincial government in Ontario doing its very best to push further privatization.

A very large part of Canada's national identity is "not being the US". The two countries are so similar, that Canadians hold on with their fingernails any marginal difference and any criticism is responded to with "it could be worse, we could be like the US".

I don't know. I heard this narrative a lot more during the trump era, and I rarely hear it now. I have a pet theory that it comes up in popular Canadian culture when a republican is in office and dies down when a democrat is there.

Maybe it’s changed, but the “Canadian identity” has long been this amorphous thing many Canadians quietly fret over because nobody is quite sure what it is but they're sure it exists.

Since US and Canada are so similar, a lot of the discussion of identity are around the differences, which to me is a weird way to talk about a national identity.

It also comes up a lot when someone mentions something positive about the US that Canada struggles with, say economic growth - then it becomes a common refrain of “yes, but at least X is better in Canada than the US”.

It’s also used commonly in discussions in healthcare - any change is described as “Amerification” of the healthcare system even those the change would just make Canada more like European systems.

Maybe it’s unavoidable being right next door to the US, I don't know.

I've heard this same narrative for 35+ years now. Didn't matter if it was a republican or democrat in office.

Anecdotally it's usually used when someone starts to criticize our healthcare system.

Are you Canadian?

> The smugness and the sense of superiority they have at not being the US is delusional.

I’ve seen this a few times, only on HN, so it’s either a particular HN meme, or it’s you posting it every so often

I haven't even seen it on HN; frankly every Canadian on here seems to lament the difference in tech role compensation between the two countries.

Outside of HN, I haven't even heard this smugness since the early years of the invasion of Iraq.

Bashing Canada is like hitting Mickey in Disneyworld. Having said that, just google 'an honorary member of the Third World' to find the answer is (was actually) Canada.

I was in Montreal recently and the metro is one of the nicest I’ve used. It was on time, reliable and well designed. The stations are all architecturally interesting, and some of them even “beautiful”. The trains are very comfortable and unlike most metro’s, the lighting is soft and doesn’t overwhelm your senses when taking at night. Also for anyone interested in trains, the rubber tires on an interesting touch, albeit limiting if they wanted to expand the metro above ground.

I was in Paris a year ago and the metro was such a joy to use. Way easier than the subway in NYC, cleaner, and the people watching was a nice bonus.

I disagree that it's easier than the NYC subway. The 'zone' system is complicated for tourists who aren't used to dealing with that. Contrast to NYC subway where it's $2.90 (formerly $2.75) to walk thru the turnstile and go anywhere. It seems like Paris is adopting a similar model which is nice to see. NYC also has nearly 170 more stations than Paris.

What is hard to use about it ? The machine or the teller will give you the proper ticket. Plan highlighting the zone are in every stations and cars. ( on top of the doors )

Not living there anymore but I think those zone are on the way out anyway. They make it more expensive for folks with less income.

I was actually comparing both through the viewpoint of a tourist.

Paris was far and away easier to navigate, even though I don't even speak French.

Get the NFC card and you can refill it on your phone. Super easy to use.

> I actually found the metro stations incredibly clean

it depends on the time of the day and the standards you're used to.

I am from Rome, not the cleanest city in the World I might say, but I used to go to Paris frequently, my ex girlfriend lived there for 10 years and I found Paris a terrible patchwork of "looking clean, but not really clean", "smelly and not in a good way" and "rats on the streets of the center not scared at all by the people" together with "there are actually people living in the catacombs below the building I'm currently living in and we can't do anything about it"

We both were victims of robbery a few times and attempted robbery several times (one time I put my hand in the pocket of my jacket and shacked hands with a burglar that was looking for something to steal) in the metro stations, so we usually were very worried when we had to get one, we ended up walking a lot to avoid the stress, which ironically turned out to be a great idea, if there's something good I can totally agree about Paris is that it is one of the best cities to take a long walk.

I assume that this is an advertising piece to promote the newfound cleanliness for the upcoming Olympic games in the city, it's happening the same in Rome for the 2025 Jubilee.

The Paris metro is a miserable experience when you compare to what you have in Tokyo.

Every metro feels like a miserable experience when compared to what you have in Tokyo. This extends to trains in Japan in general. Transport is expensive in Japan, but quality is unmatched on all aspects I can think of: timeliness, reliability, service, comfort, security, cleanliness, extensiveness,... From what I've heard, working for JR (Japan Rail) is considered a honor.

I think the Paris metro is average-good compared to my experience in other countries. It has its quirks, and strikes are a thing but I have used it extensively (I have lived in Paris for several years) without big problems, and I arrive most of the time within a few minutes of the expected time (in Tokyo, that's seconds!).

> working for JR (Japan Rail) is considered a honor

Also the thing to remember is that part of the reason JR works so well is because of the defined career path.

For example, you don't just become a Shinkanzen driver, you have to follow the career path:

    - Work two years as station attendant
    - Work two years as a conductor
    - Work two years as a standard (non-Shinkanzen) train driver

Only then can you progress to the Shinkzansen training and examination.

The result is you have people working on the railways who are intimately familiar with both the system as a whole and the impact they and their actions can have on others. Which is a very Japanese thing, life is not just about you but your impact on others around you.

When I was in Tokyo a couple of years ago I didn't find transport expensive.

As a foreign tourist from presumably from NA or Western Europe, then it will seem pretty affordable compared to your home country. Relative to Japanese cost of living and average income however, certain lines and services can be pretty expensive (particularly the shinkansen and certain JR services).

> Every metro feels like a miserable experience when compared to what you have in Tokyo

I’ve never taken it, but I’ll note I’ve never personally taken public transport to match Bangkok’s BTS and MRT, which are both excellent, although it’s very irritating they haven’t implemented cross-system billing yet

Unless you're traveling in pick hours and the train is so overcrowded that you can't even lift you hand inside...

Unavoidable except if you price it up so much that people start using the car again. For the same reason why there will always be be traffic jams no matter how many streets there are and how many lanes they have.

You're right.

And I'm not even talking about how the Paris metro is narrow, dark and stinky.

The Paris area train system (if you consider metro + other trains) is reliable inside Paris, and the very close suburbs, but as you get further away it gets extremely shitty. In some cities (with RER) daycare will refuse families where both parents work in Paris because they know they can't reliably be on time to pick up the kids and will end up with late parents.

Also metro stations in Paris are so close it's very slow. The only exception is line 14 which is the most recent. It's also the best line but it's the only one.

Overall, they're making a big fuss about the Grand Paris and while it is a big deal, it's not going to make it the best transportation system for cities of that size. I'm just really catching up on fixing the very broken transportation system for anyone living outside of Paris itself - which is only 105m2, very small for the population living in the greater Paris area. It's roughly the size inside the Yamanote line.

First, it's unfair to compare any subway to Tokyo. Tokyo's public transit system is on a different planet. It will always win by a landslide.

Second, the Paris metro is dramatically better than New York's in terms of pleasantness of the experience and arguably better than London's and DC's, both of which are pretty pleasant by any standard that does not include Tokyo.

It's precisely because Tokyo is the best that we should compare everything else to it. That's the standard that every urban planning expert and functioning council should try to achieve.

Tokyo metro isn't best. I would say the Shanghai[1] one is. And it grows with every year.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Metro

Nah...Shanghai metro is no where near Tokyo in terms of pretty much every aspect. The only thing it is better is price (starting from 3 CNY, or about 60 JPY, whereas Tokyo metro starts from 180 JPY).

It has better toilets, infrastructure, newer trains, much bigger (thus stations are almost always nearby), and integrated as a system as opposed to multiple metros in Tokyo, and so on.

Better toilets? When was the last time you came to Tokyo? Just before a bunch of big international events leading up to the Olympics, there was a crazy (re-)building boom for public toilets. And, if I know anything from experience in mainland China, their initial build is "wow" and (lifetime) maintenance "sucks". The public toilets will stink like most big cities in China after a couple of years. Where as Japan will put incredible effort into maintaining their public toilets.

Newer trains? Yeah, sure, because the network is newer. I can recall riding the maglev in Shanghai from the airport. The first thing that I noticed: The seat covers were filthy. So typical mainland China.

"[M]ultiple metros in Tokyo"? Use the Suica/Pasmo payment card. Hardly anyone thinks about what operator they are riding in 2023: They are thinking about destination and convenience. And, be real: The reason why Tokyo has so much complexity is the age and history of the system. (London, Paris, Berlin, and NYC have similar stories.) If Shanghai was rich in 1920 (well, it was, but that wealth was controlled by colonialists) and building metro lines, it would surely look different today.

Better toilets? Seriously? The toilets in the Shanghai Metro (or in China, in general) are among its worst features. Many are quite dirty and smelly, and most, if not all, lack soap and toilet paper.

Regarding infrastructure, yes it's new in Shanghai, but new != better. For example, the station floors may look shiny in Shanghai, but they become quite slippery on rainy days—a non-issue in Tokyo. Another example is that many trains in Japan have different air conditioning in different cars even within the same train, a subtle but welcome feature for those sensitive to temperatures—no such thing in Shanghai. Lastly, unlike Japan, metros in Shanghai/China still lack public timetables in 2023. A timetable can save you a lot of time by allowing you to plan your trip.

I agree that the integrated metro system in Shanghai is better for travelers.

It is too bad that the Seoul metro doesn't get similar coverage. I guess there are fewer Seoul geeks here compared to Tokyo geeks. The metro, including suburban and high-speed rail is "knock your socks off" good.

I was told that there is a hotline for depressed Japanese when they come to Paris and find out that it's not like the stories they are told.

"Paris Syndrome is a psychological condition experienced almost exclusively by Japanese tourists who are disappointed when the city of lights does not live up to their romantic expectations."

The Japanese Embassy in Paris now has a 24-hour hotline for Japanese tourists suffering from the syndrome, whose symptoms can range from depression and anxiety to acute delusional states, dizziness, sweating, hallucinations and "feelings of persecution."[1]

[1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/french-toilet-story_b_2422398

Is there a similar condition for visitors to Times Square in New York City disapointed at not being mugged or seeing a rat?

I am not sure what one even has to do to get mugged in NYC. And I am saying that as someone who has walked across Manhattan through Times Square on multiple occasions after midnight, all while very properly inebriated.

However, there is imo no way to avoid seeing rats if you used NYC subway more than once and had your eyelids up.

I'll be the first to admit the city cleaned up a lot between my first vist there in the late 1970s and more recently a year or two ago ... that said, for whatever reason, a lot of non American first time visitors seem to still carry that '70s image of NYC as a crime hub.

Might be all those 'classic' NYC films exporting a vibe.

I still haven't seen an NYC rat chase a cat while carrying a pizza though, admittedly I'm an infrequent and short term visitor.

I was a frequent visitor to Manhattan in the 2000s, and I generally felt very safe at any time in midtown, and the upper east and west sides. My recent visit last year (the first in 10 years or so) was shocking in how much Manhattan had deteriorated in terms of safety. I don't know what it was like in the 70s so I can't compare.

I’ve heard of a reverse cultural phenomenon of people visiting rural villages in England and being surprised at the prettiness of them, where most English people would find them mundane.

Kidlington, which is remarkable in only its banality, for example: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-37820663.amp

I’ve read there’s a cricket in Times Square.

> "feelings of persecution."

This is almost certainly due to the rudeness of store and restaurant employees during tourist season.

I can believe that - hoping to experience it first hand in the near future. Still, was impressed by Paris in general (or at least, was more impressed than I expected to be!)

Always go to France with low expectations. Makes for a better experience.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. The Paris metro is about as fast as the Tokyo metro, its just that the Tokyo metro is a larger and denser system, since it is serving a larger and denser city.

Tokyo's metro region is smaller than Paris and fits more than 3 times the people. The metro's top speed is up to 5 times as fast as Paris's metro. It's on a completely different scale. And given that Paris is Europe's second busiest metro system it tells you something.

It is unfortunately a bit hard to compare the length of the system, since it's hard to distinguish between the local lines that are not operated by tokyo metro vs. the longer distance ones.

Overall, your post is thoughtful.

Can you help me to understand this part?

    The metro's top speed is up to 5 times as fast as Paris's metro.

I would not call the Tokyo subways lines (both companies) very fast when riding a local train. I went to Paris for a week and found the metro lines fairly similar.

You are correct, taking the reference speed as measurement is not a valid line of reasoning.

The average speed is higher, the speed is lower the closer the stations are together, but the speed also depends on the line; i.e. the Ginza line added ATS(automated train stop, added in 1993). I just learned that Paris' Line 14, that went into service in 2022, also drives at accelerated speeds, it's the first line with ATS in Paris. I think the main problems that need to be addressed with respect to higher speed transportation are the following:

1. the breaking system needs to be assisted (ATS)

2. the railway needs to be replaced and reinforced

3. turn angles can't exceed a certain degree

1 and 3 are a design issue that isn't really addressed in older metro system, and 2 is probably a political problem. Contrary to my previous belief it seems that France is at least trying to address some of the points in their metro extensions, which is nice.

The tokyo metro is much cleaner and does not smell like piss, has none of the homeless population living in and you can be safe in day and night. Only a blind person with a blocked nose could pretend its about the same.

Tokyo metro has its drawbacks as well, namely, I found the stations rather difficult to navigate for foreigners. Of course this being Japan there are many nice people eager to help everywhere, but (again of course) they don’t speak english.

Tokyo has signs in English everywhere. It is difficult to navigate the first time you are looking for a connection but after a few days you get used to how things work and how to find your way. There are also tons of apps you can use to help you.

In Tokyo it's simple for a foreigner, open Google Maps, enter your destination, the app gives you the number where you have to go, you take your train, and that's it.

No different than any other cities.

Last time I was there Google Maps weren't good at navigating through the stations. And the signs at the stations were difficult to follow compared to other metro systems I'm used to.

I'm sure everyone is able to figure it out, but IMO they could take some inspiration from e.g. London or Paris.

One tiny thing they could do to improve metro stations: Put big stickers on the floor that guide you to an interchange or an exit. Most stuff in Tokyo is "up" (overhead signs), but they could also use "down" to improve things. I was recently traveling on the metro in Kunming (Yunan Province, China), and I noticed they use the "down" part very well to guide you -- with Chinese and English. It was very helpful in more complex stations.

One more idea: Tokyo metro stations don't make a lot of use of colour schemes. I have used some metros that use very loud colour schemes all throughout the station to guide you to interchanges. Again: Very helpful for visitors.

It also helps to learn the Katakana alphabet, which is easy enough for any computer nerd that one can do it on the plane to Tokyo. You can then sound out the syllables on signs and know that アキハバラ sounds like "Akihabara" and thus you're on the right train.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana

You just need to learn that there are multiple metros and some JR trains, and then it will become easy to understand. Modern metro apps and maps can calculate the path using all of those without any problem.

I remember finding it very busy, but we’ll organise - helps that most signs are bilingual. And the station staff are really helpful if you look lost. The hardest part was the ticket machines but that’s common all over I find.

I really don't remember most signs being bilingual.

What year did you ride the Tokyo metro? Jesus, on most lines there are four languages -- Japanese, English, Korean, Chinese. And, the newest ticket machines have many, many more languages -- even Thai!

Did they clean up? When I was there a few years ago, most heavy traffic stations were full of litter and frequently smelled like piss.

I was there in 2014 and was struck by how gross the metro stations in Paris were. I was there again this month (got home yesterday) and was struck by how much cleaner and nicer the stations seemed. I assumed (with no information) that they’ve been cleaning them up in advance of the Olympics. In any case, my experience this time was quite good. Certainly way better than the NYC subway (still not as good as Tokyo).

If there was a labour strike, then obviously people would not be cleaning up. In Italy, waste management workers were on strike for part of 2023, leaving the capital Rome with piles of trash on the sidewalks for long periods of time.

The stations are orders of magnitude cleaner than they were years ago. Stations that smell like urine are now the minority.

maybe you went on different lines that the ones I'm using, but I never found the most of the stations clean. Or it's just still better than what you're used to (I don't have much experience with subway in other cities)

I certainly did not take all of the lines and did not alight at all stations I crossed, but I was still prepared for much worse! To provide a point of comparison - the busiest stations in Ottawa all smell of urine almost all the time and they see much less traffic than their counterparts in Paris. It is in some ways a uniquely Ottawa problem but it was still nice to use the Paris metro to travel in the city.

Vienna metro was even cleaner and slightly less sketchy than Paris, but that is also not a fair comparison in terms of size and demographics. The Delhi metro is almost equally impressive as Paris's in convenience but feels about as clean as Ottawa.

For anyone interested to learn about the nighly cleaning routine for the Delhi metro, I strongly recommend to Google something like this: Why is the Delhi Metro clean?

Most Indians gush at the cleanliness of the Delhi metro. It is a world ahead of most average India Rail cars and stations. (I'm not speaking of long distance, upper class cars. Those are amazing, but ridiculously expensive.)

I spent almost 7 years in Paris, now 6 months in Tokyo. The metro in Paris can't even be compared in terms of cleanliness.

The old Marunouchi and Mita trains used to be pretty dirty (by Tokyo standards!), but both have been upgraded in the last five years. The classic "oyaji smell" is gone from both trains now.

When I was there in 2008, Paris was filthy by western standards. But oddly the Metro system was cleaner than NYC (though NYC is also filthy by western standards).

How about Berlin's S-Bahn and U-Bahn? I was really impressed when I travelled there on holiday. Very clean, punctual, and frequent. The stations are pretty old, but well maintained, and the train cars were reasonably new and clean.

I’m struggling to think of any metro that’s more filthy than New York’s, so I’m not sure that’s saying much.

The idea that Paris is a particularly dirty city is spread by far right groups to fuel racism. I've traveled to many large cities / capitals and Paris is at worst average. Exceptions like Tokyo (that everyone loves to parrot when the subject comes up) are precisely that, exceptions.

It is funny to call fueling racism when saying Paris is particulatly dirty while at the same time admitting it cannot be compared to city like tokyo. Because I guess if compared then it would look particularly dirty.

By the way seoul is also way cleaner than Paris, I believe Singapore too.

Having been to Tokyo, Singapore and Seoul, I can categorically say that Seoul is not in the same league as the other two. Having said that, all three are far and away cleaner than my city of Melbourne, Australia, which has taken an absolute dive in the last 15 years (I've been studying and working in the CBD for 40 years).

Seoul has the problem of regular sewage smell overall.

Holy crap -- I have posted so many times today and I forget to mention Singapore (and Hongkong). Hat tip to you, sir/madam. Singapore's subway is very clean. In my experience, the total system load is way higher in Hongkong, but they do a tremendous job keeping it clean.

Compare to Stockholm... Paris will be "dirty", as ofc there is way more people. But still. But yes if you come from Canada or USA, Paris will look amazing to you.

Brussels metro was far filthier than Paris in my limited experience.

Sadly saying that doesn't mean much for the level of filth in the Paris metro (Brussels is my native city but I thankfully left that shithole).

> (...) I actually found the metro stations incredibly clean

They didn't tell you this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/29/bedbug-crisis-...

I respect the 40B investment by Paris, but also mentionable is that city by car is very doable. It almost felt like a secret treat we had this rainy summer holiday - no congestions and we could park side of street at all the hot spots paying with one of the parking apps.

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