Hacker News Reader

Comment by pentae | Hacker News Reader

I think you missed the point - we're talking about computers marketed as "Pro" devices which should be able to handle "Pro" workloads.

8GB on the Airs is a completely different issue as these are not marketed as Pro devices.

Consumers place a lot of faith in Apple as a brand so when they go and purchase a "Macbook Pro" they should be able to assume Apple has their back and it's actually going to do what it says on the tin. It's 2023, memory demand is higher than it ever has been and selling a "Pro" computer thats destined to be living on swap so they can try squeeze another $200 out of you is pretty shitty honestly. And it's not like you can just upgrade it, you have to toss it out and get a whole new device.

View on HN

> computers marketed as "Pro" devices

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Which is the problem in a nutshell. No one knows what it means.

The parent worked as a dev for a year with the machine and was happy with it. I am also a dev, and am still on a M1 8gb Air that I got in early 2021, and I'm very happy with it. Probably the best laptop I've ever had the pleasure to work on.

For my workload, I don't think the difference between a 8gb and 16gb machine would be measurable. Some people really would prefer the $200.

We can talk about what "Pro" doesn't mean - a compromised, crippled machine that has to use swap memory from day 1.

https://youtu.be/hmWPd7uEYEY

So watch that and tell me again why you think the difference ‘isn’t measurable’.

Tell me after watching that video you think the 8gb machine which is performing up to 5x worse than the 16gb model is "Pro"

Imagine the reverse - if Apple had a new cpu that performed 5x better they would be screaming it from the rooftops. And yet they have absolutely no qualms selling a machine thats 5x worse performing on the base model compared to the $200 upgrade.

They are basically scamming us and people like you are defending them for it. They need to be shamed and people like you need to stop defending the trillion dollar company doing it.

It should be noted that I'm not saying they should sell the 16gb model for the 8gb price - I'm saying they shouldn't be selling 8gb in a pro model at all. Or at the very least, they need to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR to people buying these 8GB machines at the checkout page that they are far far worse performing than the 16GB machines and the SSD's will wear out quicker.

Like others here I am a dev, I'm fine with 8Gb. I skimmed through the video and the measurable slowdown was in image intensive apps like Lightroom and Blender. Why exactly should I be subsidizing those users?

This is the problem with skipping through things like this - you missed the part about real world chrome performance. It’s okay to be happy with 8gb, but it doesn’t mean you are right. Ignorance may be bliss but try not to spread it

You know, instead of being rude and berating someone who makes a good faith effort to watch an 11 minute video to try and find your argument, you should instead just go ahead and just make your argument. I don't know why you'd expect me to spend my time trying to find a needle in your haystack.

You are the one arguing in bad faith to satisfy the cognitive dissonance created by being scammed buying a computer at way too high price considering its real-world performance in the configuration you got.

If anything, you are the one who really needs to prove why he feels the need to defend the indefensible commercial choices of an extremely rich company.

At best you are like a weirdo using short in 5°C winter and telling everyone it is fine and do not understand why everyone is telling him he is crazy and that must be uncomfortable. At worst you are the used car salesman minimizing every single problem the car he is selling to keep the price high.

In any case, your behavior is not normal nor commendable, you shouldn't be the one requesting better behavior from other people...

Don't you use docker or build tools? Those are what use of all the memory on my computer.

In that video, it looks like the 8gb starts swapping when running blender and processing photos Lightroom?! Those are the very definition of tasks requiring a memory upgrade, IMHO. The 8gb model is meant for web browsing, communication, watching YouTube or Netflix and the such. Light computer work.

Don’t get stuck on the Pro monitor, real Professionals simply buy more memory because they know they need it and they should be able to afford it. Apple offers the 8gb models for regular folk with light computing needs who like a nicer machine, be it called Air or Pro.

I think it’s pretty clear that Pro Max stands for profit maximization. ;)

"Pro" usage doesn't mean docker. There are many "pro" workloads that work just fine with 8gb ram. You can get a lot of real work done with an 8gb machine that has terrific battery life, is great for travel, great screen, etc.

If you work on large C++/Rust projects you need dedicated build servers with ungodly amount of CPU/ram. A laptop cannot possibly compete with servers that draw 2000 watts each. Desktop PCs also blow laptops out of the water in terms of raw performance. And yet many professional developers have a MBP as their main device because apparently they don't need the extra performance a high end desktop delivers.

Somehow many people here believe that:

- an 8GB MBP is not pro

- a 16GB MBP is pro

- desktop with 1TB ram is unnecessary for pro use

Somehow their preferred device is the "pro" device and should be called "pro" and less capable and more capable machines are irrelevant.

Again it comes down to the fact that 8GB means you are almost guaranteed to be on swap. Does it work? Sure. But there is nothing ‘Pro’ about that, it wears out your drive faster and gives suboptimal performance

Agreed. IMO the only reason why the 8GB model exists is so Apple can advertise the Macbook Pro line with a starting price that has lower margins than they would otherwise make and then charge anyone who actually wants to use the computer for a professional workload an extra $200-400.

People understand that Apple just uses Pro to mean “better than the not pro version”.

We’ve had AirPods Pro and the iPhone Pro for years now, the days of the word pro meaning “for professionals” are long gone.

In short, "plus"

I run a 3d printing business, design, manufacturing, CAD/CAM, designed my own marketing materials, website, etc etc from my 8G M2 Macbook Air, never once did I feel like I needed more RAM.

I just used the MacBook Air as an example because even at 8GB, it’s still an amazing machine. I know the $1600 MBP with 8GB is strange. It shouldn’t exist. But it does so Apple opened itself up for ridicule.

I wanted to download and local LLMs on my Macbook, but discovered that I just didn't have the RAM for this. Moreover I couldn't upgrade to handle the new use case, I'd need a whole new Macbook. But the cost of that new machine would be absurd.

To be clear I have no problem paying the Apple tax, the computers are worth it. The problem is that Apple has optimized the Apple tax in such a way it makes local AI applications impossible, which is a shame because they have such the best architectures for that use case.

This from the company found liable for deliberately slowing their stuff, for all their proprietary dongles, for getting rid of the headphone jack, etc. etc.

As much of a conversation killer calling people "sheep" can be, as someone who doesn't use their stuff, what is surprising about this?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com