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Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is not like the American religious practices you mention, where faith is a matter of identity but only expressed on Sundays or whatever. Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is a total way of life, for men especially it determines your daily schedule every day of the week. The Torah study that many men engage in full-time gives them a distinct body of knowledge and perspective that makes them feel part of the same culture as fellow ultra-Orthodox, while the secular world is an alien and potentially hostile place.

That isn’t to say that attrition doesn’t happen. It does. But this group has resisted it more than other faiths.

My understanding of the community is that the women are often the breadwinners in addition to being homemakers and caretakers. I wonder if/how this will be sustainable as things become more and more expensive.

Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences

>Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences

both. they supposed to enroll to army but in case they study in yeshiva they typically avoid it, till they reach the age when army "looses" interest in you.

it's one of the major pain points in israeli politics/society. army supposed to be people army but big chunk of population avoids it and all the time tries to pushes through knesset laws to make this avoidance permanent and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause)

one of the reasons for the very messy supreme court reform in israel that been ongoing for past half an year is to allow to make law that will give permanent exception from army to orthodox . they even wanted to make recently law that equates tora study to army service

The argument _for_ the exemption is that it will allow them to join the workforce and contribute to the economy, instead of staying in the yeshiva (which is currently a condition necessary to get the _current_ exemption, and which I think also furthers cements into the orthodox lifestyle). I wonder whether this argument can be tested before the exemption is actually given.

So secular folks risk their lives in military service to secure the lives of these Haredis, and upon returning to civilian life find out that no jobs exist for them, because the (quite hated) Haredis have taken them up? Sounds like a very sound recipe for stability indeed.

In some countries with universal conscription that can be dodged, men who actually serve are more likely to be hired for desirable jobs. So, it could be that even if Haredim work in secular professions, those veterans would still have an advantage over them in the employment market and the Haredim wouldn't be viewed as ungrateful competition.

That's not the case everywhere. When I was young in the Netherlands it was pretty much frowned upon because conscripts would have nothing to do but smoke weed and clean some tanks for the 50th time. It was widely regarded as a waste of a year and a half. I'm very glad I was disqualified and it never was a barrier for me in life.

I guess in countries where shots are actually fired in anger this experience may vary wildly.

the only difference is in jobs that require experience with weapon. no other advantages

Not necessarily.

At the very least an 18 year old who has been forced to fend for themselves is very different to an 18 year-old who still lives at home and has their mum do their washing.

I know who I'd rather employ.

Fend for themselves? The military is the one place where one doesn't get to do that. Especially conscripts.

Following orders that are barked at them by usually less intelligent people that just happen to have some stripes on their shoulder is not fending for oneself. You get fed, sleep and eat on command, what fending is there to do?

I would say you're conflating freedom with fending for one's self.

A teenager living at home has a high degree of freedom, but they don't have to fend for themselves, that is, they don't have to take responsibility for doing all the things that need doing in life, they will find their dirty shirt left on the floor, magically cleaned, ironed and put back in the wardrobe.

Someone in the army has a low amount of freedom, but they have to take responsibility for all the things that need doing in life. If they don't make sure their shirt is washed, ironed, etc they will be held responsible.

But the military have a laundry service, cooking service etc. Everything is still done for them. Except the things they are ordered to do. Throwing your shirts in the laundry is not really different from home.

Moving into your own place for the first time is much more like fending for yourself. Having to learn to cook, wash, manage your finances. Living independently and having to live with your mistakes, not just being told off for them by a superior. And really, things that actually matter, not something stupid like not having a starched shirt in the morning. The real world no longer cares about such superficial matters.

The only thing the military is really good at teaching is obedience but at the expense of suppressing critical thought and creativity. If I were an employer I'd like my employees to tell me if they disagree and not blindly follow orders.

PS: Yes my aversion to the military is pretty clear sorry.

Last I checked, the aforementioned services you state (cleaning, laundry, cooking, etc) were all handled by conscripts themselves, and not by some sweet outsourced civilian agency (of course, things could be different for US folks in a warzone). In fact, some high level officers are often assigned a bunch of conscripts to do all their boring work for them. This is mostly the case in countries with a conscripted military, or a large enough population.

things in Israel and Israeli army somewhat different from what you describe. If you curious, go to /r/Israel, there were a discussion last week about difference between US and Israeli armies

as somebody from Israel, I am talking reality. The only difference is in security related jobs. In other sectors nobody cares.

With regards to "fending for yourself", you should visit Israel some day. It's something that is mastered by age of 8

> and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause)

Interesting. Why is it that Arab Israelis are not required to serve then? Wouldn’t that same equality clause apply?

good point. no idea. druze and beduins serve. arabs are excluded from draft. i guess nobody ever tried to challenge this in a court.

anecdotally, in past decades some arabs tend to volunteer to army/alternative service

I have born and raised in a little similar environment, a semi catholic cult called Neocathecumenal Way, but after a massive growth in the 80s and in the 90s the movement is declining. Right now, only the teen agers (sons of the members) are joining the Way, but they usually leave as they grew up.

They also marry young, like at 18/19 and then are expected to start having kids immediately. Once they have kids, they're stuck. If you want to leave the faith you better have your spouse on board or you will also be leaving your kids.

I wonder how much of Catholicism’s continued decline can be attributed to Vatican II? I never experienced the OG mass format, but it seems possibly less dumb than the modern “life lecture by a guy with no actual life experience”. It was in decline at the time and they were trying to save it, but I feel like a resurgence might have been more likely if they hadn’t neutered it.

The Tridentine Mass also has a homily. I like the Norvus Ordo done in a reverent manner. However, he prescripts of Vatican II were abused. Latin was supposed to be maintained generally. Music was supposed to be primarily Gregorian Chant. Communion on the hand was allowed because people were doing it and there was a desire to prevent those people being in sin while it was corrected. Instead it was allowed to spread and become entrenched. The Church needs to focus on preaching the Truth a specially the hard controversial ones of our time, an increased focus on the Sacraments (e.g. more daily Masses, especially daily Confession, moving Confirmation to before first Communion---this last one predates Vatican II), reintroducing the mystery and reverence of the Eucharist by switching back to Latin, mandating kneeling during reception of Communion and on the tongue only.

>moving Confirmation to before first Communion

Yes that will fix it.

My gf did confirmation because you get loads of presents, which is an easy sell to a child.

OG Catholics have fertility rates around what Haredi Jews have, so the answer is basically yes. With caveats.

Haredim society is more like the Amish, everything is tightly integrated. Far less Amish leave the church and community.

Ah I see. I don't know Amish. We don't really have those in Holland. We have Calvinists who are pretty strict by our standards, some even refuse to own a TV and they "close" their websites on Sundays.

But young people live in a more open world. The ones that still adhere to such strict rules are a tiny minority.

Yeah thats not at all comparable to ultra orthodox judaism. They live in a bubble, and if you leave that bubble you are shunned by everyone you know.

> That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted.

Same mistake as we make for radical Islam.

These aren't religions, they're cultures/law systems/political systems/belief systems, that encompass everything you can think of, for people born in these nothing of value exists out of them