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Comment by jack_pp | Hacker News Reader

Are modern cats even that good at killing rats anymore? Haven't we mostly bred cats that have very rarely even seen a rat their entire life?

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I know you specifically asked about rats but domestic cats are killing machines.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23360987/

We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.4-3.7 billion birds and 6.9-20.7 billion mammals annually.

This. Domestic cats are some of the most specialized killing machines in nature. Everything is raw murder machine. Massive muscle to weight ratio, optimized for extreme agility. 30mph top speed blows the doors off nearly anything it may encounter in nature. Tail allows for balance while running. Able to jump multiple times its own height. Able to fall a multiple of it's jump height. 20 built-in claws also act as tools to assist in movement and extreme climbing ability. Bite force enables additional attack vectors. Night vision. Ability to track small objects. Insane paw-eye coordination. Cats (big and small) are best predator.

All to sleep on your lap.

Edit: Also did I mention their incredible sense of smell and their built-in instinct to hide their tracks? Every. Single. Detail. Murder.

Direct registering walking, too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8riT_b8xbxg). Whiskers to feel air currents, sense prey close to their face, and estimate the dimension of holes. Swiveling ears to precisely locate faint scurrying sounds. Raspy tongues to hold prey. 200-degree visual fields with crazy-good motion detection.

I love my cats, but I often think about how utterly terrifying they'd be if I were prey-sized. (I.e., Adjusting for scales, I'd probably rather take my chances with a Xenomorph than a good mouser domestic cat.)

They also evolved in the wild as prey. This helps explain why they like bunkers like cardboard boxes.

But think about it. If you were constantly on the alert as both predator and prey, you'd be pretty nutso too.

> Able to fall a multiple of its jump height

My understanding is that it's higher than their terminal velocity, which makes any height fairly low risk. They can be expected to survive falling out of an airplane, for example.

The ultra-high upper frequency limit of their hearing also allows them to detect the hypersonic communications of mice, which is why they always seem to know where one is. Dogs cannot hear this high.

Edit 2: Did I mention absolute stealth and, in some breeds, camouflage?

Also absurdly fast reaction time means even a snake is not a threat.

I’ve read that they also attack reptiles in a way that exploits a reptilian weakness, which is their greatly reduced (relative to mammals) capacity for dealing with lactic acid buildup. They goad snakes, etc into repeated dramatic movements which causes their muscles to quickly saturate with lactic acid, greatly reducing their mobility.

Except the chonky ones, who would only stares back at you.

I think the fact that they are generally well fed and well cared for compared to wild animals makes a big difference as well

The fact that we feed them breaks their equilibrium with their prey. Normally a predator starts running out of food as it wipes out its prey, but not domestic cats. And not just pets, we also feed the ferals.

You made the sale.

>Cats (big and small) are best predator.

And yet it is illegal for humans to hunt lions, but not for lions to hunt human (though unwise in the extreme).

You're welcome to explain the concept of a legal system to a lion, if you think it would work.

You missed a crucial bit of the abstract (my emphasis):

> We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.4-3.7 billion birds and 6.9-20.7 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality.

From the text of the paper, "majority" means 69% for birds and 89% for mammals. Feral cats kill a lot of animals, because that's what they eat. Pet cats do not. "Domestic cat" here means F. catus, not cats that live in homes.

Also, i wouldn't attach complete confidence to this paper. Firstly, it was written by bird conservationists, who have a dog in this fight (as it were). Secondly, it contains some dubious numbers (eg bird return rate per owned cat per year of 4.2 - 18.3 in US and Europe studies - and yet my mum's cats all brought in 0 - 1 per year). I'm not saying ignore it, but don't treat it as gospel - and it would be great to see responses to it, and other work on this subject.

The last cat I had that was allowed to go outside was a fearsome mouser, delighted in toying with them and was quite the biology teacher, showing off their inner anatomy to us kids.

However, birds mercilessly teased him as he had no clue how to catch one, surrounding him while he lay on the grass, chirping, then flying just far enough away when he'd move towards them.

A neighbors cat was being harassed by a bird once. It would dive bomb the cat then fly away quickly. It did this multiple times while I watched. The cat got tired of it after a while and stood perfectly still. The bird swooped down toward it and, just as it was close enough, the cat leapt in the air twisting its body upside down mid leap and grabbed the bird from the air. It was the first time I saw how a normal cat could be such an effective natural killer.

Seagulls hang in the air at the Helsinki market square, opportunistically snatching french fries and ice cream and such from tourists. It has occurred to me that any person as focused as that cat could lunge and grab one of these winged vermin out of the air. I myself would not try it because I'd be afraid of losing an eye to a panicking bird with a quite long beak.

Isn’t this more of an example of “suicide by cat”? My cat gets dive bombed by crows occasionally but I think they are mostly playing on both sides…

Not quite sure I understand the point you're trying to make, because getting back to the original question, though, "Are modern cats even that good at killing rats anymore?" - the answer is yes, absolutely.

There is no real genetic difference, as a total population, between feral cats and cats owned as pets. Absolutely, as you point out, owned cats who know they'll get fed inside will murder outdoor animals just for fun, and they don't need to eat them to survive - but that's a learned behavior, nothing they were bred for. You take a normal tabby and leave it to have its litter outside, unowned, and those cats will turn into feral cats.

Many animal rescue organizations have developed "Barn cat programs" for feral cats. These cats have not been socialized to be around humans so they make bad pets, but they're happy to live in a barn and ensure it says rat-free: https://www.austinpetsalive.org/programs/barn-cat-program.

A wild cat would have parasites, a few still healing wounds, one eye and one of it's legs has bones did not heal quite straight. This is a cat that "naturally" hunts mice and birds. Compare that to a suburbian cat which is healthy, well fed and it's biggest health risk is obesity

That's my porch cat, Sable. She just showed up one day and made herself at home. Real sweet cat. I've taken her to the vet a few times for bad wounds.

Was on the porch the other night and saw her take a 15 foot dump out of a tree with a rat ( big one too). She landed on top and made short work of the rat. She's an excellent ratter.

I hope you meant jump.

I mean. It was not elegant.

And thabk god they do, or we'd have our grain silos eaten bare in weeks.

No, I'm not joking.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-57698822

Yeah, there's a HUGE difference in behavior between a house cat that gets all of its meals every day at home, and one that has to go out hunting for at least some of its food. The laziness of an indoor cat is a learned behavior.

In most urban environs I'd assume they're mostly killing off vermin (big win) and urban birds like pigeons and seagulls, so it's like: What, Me Worry?

They don't make 'em like they used to.

Obligatory Oatmeal comic: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill

I wouldn't say my cats are smart but you can definitely see they are natural born killers. Everything they set their eyes on dies. Flies, spiders, you name it. Nothing is too quick for them.

I keep my cats indoors (we take them in to the garden from time to time under supervision) for a variety of reasons one of them being fluffy cute little murders who kill birds and such just for sport...

There are also birds which are smarter then cats where "killer instincts" don't work on. For example I've seen magpies "play" with cats to lure them away from their young. From the interaction it was clear the magpies were employing strategy while the cat was just reacting.

What I find fascinating is the ability our cat has to mimic a crying baby - this really upsets my wife. As I am the main cat servant in our household when our cat wants services (food, cuddle etc.) it complains to my wife who then issues the relevant orders to me.

I've heard this for years with the concept that the cat's vocal range developed to be like this. But not once had I ever heard a cat sound anything unlike a cat. Until...my recent adopted fur baby. He freaks me out how much like a kid he sounds. Just the other day, he let out a sound that even my coworkers on a meeting call thought I had a kid. It's a little unsettling at times

Mine has learned exactly what corners to yell into such that their cry/meow echoes and reverberates everywhere so it can't be ignored. It's kind of impressive how smart and adaptable cats are, lol.

It's not even necessarily aimed at us. Mountain lions and bobcats can sound remarkably human and I'd be shocked if they ever had enough human prey for that to be intentional.

>I'd be shocked if they ever had enough human prey for that to be intentional.

this just made me think of the movie Annihilation where the bear like creature got a human like voice. that would definitely make a walk in the woods a lot more creepy.

I've heard coyotes make a sound like a crying child (I was in a nature preserve and went to the source until I saw it) so there is some cross species commonality in sound for some reason and there is evidence for recognition of crying baby primates by crocodiles. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/nile-crocodile...

We had a black bird try this with our cat a few weeks ago to protect a fledgling in our garden.

I would be more inclined to call the behaviour brave and desperate rather than smart because it doesn’t always work out well for the birds.

> I wouldn't say my cats are smart but you can definitely see they are natural born killers. Everything they set their eyes on dies. Flies, spiders, you name it. Nothing is too quick for them.

Most cats I've known don't kill much. They might pounce on a lizard or fly to catch it and play with it, but I can't remember the last time I've seen them actually kill something. Certainly never gotten the fabled "gift" of a dead animal from a disappointed cat who thinks I can't get my own food. I wonder what the difference is.

We have two cats and it differs from cat to cat, and with age.

When they were young our female would hunt quite a bit, certainly several times a month. Our male was hopeless at it, occasionally bringing back a live mouse and then not knowing what to do with it.

Now they have got older we have not had so much as a single mouse in a couple of years. I'm fairly sure I've seen more spiders as well.

> Nothing is too quick for them.

Cats even have a faster average reaction time than snakes.

But they'll never hunt a snake. They have an inbuilt terror of them. This is why they jump at cucumbers and hiss (trying to scare others with snake sounds)

Snakes are not a preferred target of cats but they will take them out.

From personal experience. Came home on a hot summer day. Let the cat loose and it immediately began to act unusual and drew our attention to a snake that had made it into the house. "Petals" ended the snake in short order without much fanfare.

I think the cucumber thing is about being surprised by something snake like. They'll absolutely fuck with snakes (depending on their personality).

Here's a cat batting at a snake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptJpLivNyoE

My favorite cat / bird interaction of all time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANZBs8Za0Q

A cat that can kill houseflies is a gem.

Yes. There's plenty of rodents in urban and suburban areas, but above all, cats have an inborn instinct to murder small critters for fun, and don't need to be taught that.

Rodents are their strong preference, but if bored, they will go after bugs, small birds, lizards... or engage in relentless "murder practice" using pieces of paper or cloth.

This is very different than with dogs, which often have to be trained for specific tasks. Source: lived with 10+ cats (not at the same time).

The strength of those instincts does vary from cat to cat though.

I have two cats, and one is a cold blooded killer that'll attack anything that moves, including my toes. The other will just sniff spiders and cuddles rabbits and hamsters. It did once chase a small mouse, but once it had it cornered, it didn't do anything.

Cats and rabbits get along well because cats think grooming someone is dominant, but rabbits think being groomed is dominant, so they both think they're on top.

(Domestic rabbits have surprisingly big egos.)

Domestic rabbits are the most attitude-y animals I've kept, with such surprisingly variable personalities.

I had a rabbit that we'd let out in the garden, and if the neighbour's cat came in the garden, the rabbit would chase it out, and even attack it if it wouldn't leave.

> cats have an inborn instinct to murder small critters for fun, and don't need to be taught that

If a cat has never seen mice before and no one has taught it to chase mice (and if it's not even hungry), then I simply can't imagine how this instinct is passed on through genetics. Is there a DNA encoding for "chase and kill small moving objects, preferably mouse-like objects"? Does anyone know how DNA would carry information like that?

Not a biologist, but it looks like it's an urge toward certain behaviors that just get reinforced. A mouse tail running away from them is very exciting and they want to chase it. But a piece of string can trigger the same thing. They run towards it, they jump on it, they bite it, if they're hungry they might eat it and eventually the whole thing becomes a trained behavior in wild cats. A well fed domestic cat might get stuck on "let's be play friends forever" though.

I've always had trouble with reconciling the jump from DNA to behaviours. These behaviours can be affected by a complex combination of genetics and epigenetic modifications leading to changes like modified neuronal patterning in the brain or changes in neural circuitry that can affect how readily certain neural patterns are forged which is further influenced by biological factors (learned behaviours and experiences).

yes thats what instincts are. theyre urges that you cant explain

As others said, the hunting instinct is ever present in cats. Our indoor-only cat is always hunting flies or moths; the flies are very fast, but she manages to catch them under her paw, and play with them before eating them. Sometimes the fly escapes, but the cat catches it again.

And there's that phenom where the fly is buzzing loudly in the cat's mouth and the cat is not really crunching down on it yet.

My house cat is a natural mouse killer. Idk what cars you’ve seen but they’re very much still hunters.

And they are very good at eating them as well.

My cat often brings mice and actually eat them. It's quite interesting, if gruesome, to observe because there seems to be a precise technique and it is very clean. He always starts with the head and usually there is nothing left apart from a very cleanly cut stomach, no blood, no mess.

Adopted my cat at ~9 months, 8 years in an apartment, moved to a rural property and he knew exactly what to do with mice and how to stalk them. Even losing 3 of his 4 fangs didn't slow him down.

Same with my cat. The instincts seem deeply rooted.

Yeah, we don't really see rats where I live, but every cat I've ever owned has occasionally brought mice home.

My cat is good at killing birds, chipmunks, bunnies, and mice. I doubt she could deal with a rat - probably too big.

Put a bell on your cat! Outdoor cats are responsible for a huge amount of ecological devastation, the least you can do, if you insist on your predator roaming freely outdoors, is put a bell on it to try and give local species a warning.

Cats don't cause ecological devastation.

Cats as a species kill an emotionally large sum of birds and small mammals, but they don't radically transform ecosystems. It's human industry and habitat expansion that devastates ecologies, not their garden prowlers plucking the occasional bird or chipmunk.

I'd never bell the lad.

Seconding this. OP, by letting your pet to roam around and have fun you are contributing to the local fauna's extinction. I hate to see how Australia[1] is responding to this issue but something needs to be done

[1] https://theconversation.com/australian-shelters-and-pounds-k...

Do not put a bell on your cat, like ever. It is harmful to your cat's health.

It could be harmful to your cat's health if they don't like the noise of the bell. Not all cats are bothered by it though

The risk isn't the sound, it's catching on something. But, there are bells that are integrated into the collar, to prevent this.

They don't even work anyway. The cats are so good at walking without wobbling and the bells aren't loud anyway.

Only do this if you are certain that zero predators live in your surrounding area.

Where do you live that rats are bigger than rabbits?

I'm sort of laughing at the concept that we feel it strange that cats don't want to kill rats because of the size of the rats rather than the conversation leaning towards what are we doing that have caused rats to become so large.

In middle eastern cities I rarely see rats. But I see a lot of free roaming cats.

In western cities I see rats but no cats.

I suppose we’ve made our choice.

Rats in NYC are mostly because they haven't invented "having trash cans" technology yet.

I see plenty of cats and rats around western cities.

The cats tear through the local bird population, rather than the rats

The Norwegian rat (a/k/a brown rat, of Black Death fame) grows up to 28 cm (11 in) long, and weighs 140 -- 500 g (4.9 -- 17.6 oz, just over a pound).

Some individuals might be the size of adult rabbits of smaller species, certainly of juveniles.

I'm talking about bunnies, not adult rabbits, and this is Northeast U.S.

I’ve come home to a rat body missing its head and even letting my indoor cats into the backyard might yield a dead bird or lizard on the kitchen floor.

kitchen floor? you are lucky. Some cats will offer you the dead birds on your bed.

The inspiration for the horse head in The Godfather ?

Mine loves killing mice... rats may be a bit too big for her.

If you get a normal cat, not on of those weird breeds with short legs or flat faces, they are great athletes and terrific hunters.

I have a couple of cats that are quite old: about 16 years. The male spends most of the day on the bed, but he can still jump about 5x his height.

Cats not raised to maturity by their mothers with significant outdoors access will be worse at hunting on average, as some of it is taught or just learned at a young age. They all still have hunting instincts.

My parents are taking care of my cat while I'm away. Little black cat. They let me know she killed a bat that'd gotten into the house last night. Woke them up. She's an indoor cat

If you take a kitten away from its mother within the first 2 weeks, and then keep it indoors 100% of the time, it might not get a chance to develop its hunting instincts.

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