Comment by gspencley | Hacker News Reader

Comment by gspencley | Hacker News Reader

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Sounds blissful.

I'm a fairly introverted, reclusive person. Much like your one neighbour. I keep to myself.

I do know my neighbours. The couple on one side is delightful and the woman on the other side is a "Karen" who I prefer not associate with. She is an outdoor person and only "talks" to me when she has a problem with how I keep my yard. Ironically I would probably use my yard more (and thus tend to it more) if she were not always outside in her yard being loud.

We have alley parking and garages in the rear, and I have workshop in my garage so I met a lot of my neighbours on the other side of the alley when working on projects... they came and introduced themselves and asked me what I was working on. They are delightful, but they also interrupted me which is annoying.

My wife and I are easy to get along with and go out of our way to be friendly, but would honestly rather not know that our neighbours exist. Car doors, the sound of people talking, dogs barking, kids being loud, lack of privacy in our back yard are all things that really bother us. On the flip-side, when the tree in our front yard shed a branch so large that it was practically a small tree, the delightful couple next door helped us clean it up. I felt a sense of community that day and I started to get what others find enjoyable about it. Still, we often talk of going "going rural" and not having neighbours at all.

I think you'll find that community matters even more in rural towns.

We are social animals. We can't do it all alone. That modern society has enabled us to be 'reclusive' is frankly a maladaptive outcome.

Hell is other people. Since we're apparently doing borderline thought-terminating cliches.

HN is a social community too. So are other online forums, discord chat groups, mailing lists, gaming communities, open source communities, etc. People are driven to social interaction, whether virtual or in-person. I don't know what is the big deal in acknowledging that.

That may be technically true, but is really just an implementation detail. If HN quietly replaced all the accounts with suitably capable LLM bots, it wouldn't make any difference. What this type of service really has on offer is solitary activity: Writing for one's own enjoyment, differing from a private journal only in that the software here provides some colour back to spark additional thoughts in order avoid writer's block.

I'm not sure the same is true in 'real' communities.

"It wouldn't make a difference" - To whom? And how do you know? Even if a bot passes the Turing test, a community where there isn't any creativity or new information will die out. LLM is not the be all and end all of the human experience.

To take it further. even if we were all in the matrix, the statement "it wouldn't make a difference" is not true - philosophically speaking.

Also, humans have a circular reference with society at-large. Humans shape society, and society shapes humans. So something completely different might shape future societies, but I'd rather discuss the situation as it exists today, rather than an imagined future.

There have always been hermits even before modern times, but I agree it's a high risk life strategy.

Loners are probably much more likely to die of say, having a heart attack and not receiving help promptly.

"Loners are probably much more likely to die of say, having a heart attack and not receiving help promptly."

On the other hand, loners won't get a heart attack caused by other people ..

"People who experienced social isolation had a 32% higher risk of dying early from any cause compared with those who weren't socially isolated."

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/06/19/health/loneliness-social-...

Oh for sure.

I guess except for rare exceptions, allmost no one really wants to be alone by default. But I know that I am rather alone, than in bad company.. and I met quite some people, who lived in misery, because they were too scared of being on their own for some time.

I always wonder about those statistics, I could imagine an extrovert is going to have a much tougher time being alone than an introvert. To apply it across the whole population seems dubious.

Falls are a fairly common cause of death. If you are elderly and fall and no one is around to help, that is in many cases a death sentence. Consider also the parent's comment about heart attacks, which you seem to have glossed over. Seems this factor alone can explain the data.

Why would an introvert be more likely to have a heart attack from being alone? People stress me out so much. I imagine less stress would lead to fewer heart attacks.

Seriously? I'm going to copy the parent's comment in full:

> "Loners are probably much more likely to die of say, having a heart attack and not receiving help promptly." On the other hand, loners won't get a heart attack caused by other people ..

You die anyway at some point. Not sure what this obsession about maximizing lifetime is about. I rather live like I prefer to and when I die I won't care anymore anyway.

Those people may be perfectly happy with such an outcome though?

Of any cause? What about COVID, or leukemia?

Try living in a block of flats. The fact that even though you have hundreds of people living super close to you an yet you have benefits of complete anonimity is a pure bliss.

No we aren’t social animals, certainly not in rural areas. Give me a good book and a quiet afternoon in the shade of a tree with no neighbours any day.

You maybe not. But having lived in very rural areas you quickly realize that your neighbors are your safety net far more than the authorities and that in a pinch you all need to be able to rely on each other. A good book isn't going to get your car out of a ditch or help locate your kid or pet when it has gone missing.

You may be, I may be not. That doesn’t lead to any conclusion than “some people like other people”

I’ve never need to rely on anyone, other than of course normal economic transactions.

Why would I park my car in a ditch?

> I’ve never need to rely on anyone, other than of course normal economic transactions.

That's funny. You are relying on thousands of other people every day, all day long. you just don't realize it. And not all of those are economic transactions there is plenty of goodwill involved. For instance, you rely on other people not to kill you when you are driving. Every time a stranger saves your bacon when you make a mistake, for instance. They don't have to! But if that's your worldview I don't think I'll be able to change it.

> Why would I park my car in a ditch?

I don't think anybody who ever parked their car in a ditch asked that question prior to it happening and afterwards they probably still didn't know. But in areas where there is snow it isn't rare at all to have vehicles do stuff that wasn't quite in the plan. My neighbor in Canada managed to do this with a tractor. Fortunately for him I had a bigger tractor and was able to pull his out of the ditch. And when it was my turn someone kindly brought over an excavator...

Society is a fabric, and no man is an island, not even you. You may have the illusion that you are but from the cradle to the grave you are 100% dependent on other people. Unless you live in the boonies and grow your own food and hunt, but if that were the case you wouldn't be writing here. Speaking of which: right now you rely on me to converse with you.

Those are normal expectation of living in society. Talking you your neighbour is not.

I’m sure it was decades ago in the curtain twitching world where people stayed living int he same street for decades, but not today in a highly movable world. Certainly not for me any my peers. any interactions I make are slot my own choosing, that I happen to live near someone is of no consequence.

If I did park my car in a ditch there a plethora of recovery services that will retrieve it, whether I’m a mile from home of 200 miles from home. I have no need or desire to know anything about the recovery driver, or the pilot who flew the plane I was last on, or the guy who delivers my mail, nor the plumber who replaced my boiler last year.

> Those are normal expectation of living in society. Talking you your neighbour is not.

Given how our language has a word, "neighborly", to describe friendly, helpful behavior, I think the burden is on you here for explaining why talking to your neighbor isn't a thing one can normally expect. I don't think you've done that yet.

> I’m sure it was decades ago in the curtain twitching world where people stayed living int he same street for decades, but not today in a highly movable world. Certainly not for me any my peers.

How old are you? I'm in my mid 30s and this describes none of my peers, including the younger ones in their late 20s. I can imagine younger folks wanting this. I certainly remember having friends who talked about wanting to move around to different cities/countries all the time in college and shortly after, but their priorities shifted over time. I have friends who love to travel, but I don't know anyone who wouldn't love either a house or an apartment they didn't have to worry about losing each year due to the landlord jacking up the rent or the building being sold to someone who wants to convert the building to condos.

> any interactions I make are slot my own choosing, that I happen to live near someone is of no consequence.

I'm not sure what this means. I can't imagine it's literally true as you can't really control if someone else approaches you, unless you just flatly refuse to acknowledge their presence.

> If I did park my car in a ditch there a plethora of recovery services that will retrieve it, whether I’m a mile from home of 200 miles from home.

I've had to wait a long time on a tow truck before when the weather was pleasant. When there's a snowstorm emergency services get slammed and delays increase. My neighbor has a truck and a snow plow, and I wouldn't hesitate to ask him if he could help unstick my car if it sank into the mud a bit. Also, he plows my driveway when the snow is heavy. We do neighborly things for them as well, like helping out when a tree falls in their yard.

I don't have kids yet, but from our experiences helping our neighbors out and having grown up with neighbors we knew well, they're invaluable for raising kids. "It takes a village to raise a child" is quite real!

I'm not sure if age has much to do with people's feelings on the importance of "neighborliness", but since you think it matters - I am in my 40s.

I live happily alone. I have never owned a house and I have no desire to ever own one. I don't greet my neighbors and never have. And yet, somehow, I am still able to function in society. In my current place, I have spoken to my neighbors once or twice, when a problem was affecting the building, or the floor, or just our section of the floor. We communicated well enough to contact the landlord and decide who would stay home when the workman came. We have collaborated to solve shared problems, as any human in society does. I don't know their names or anything about their private lives, though. It's not relevant. They're not my friends, they are just part of my community.

From my perspective the idea that only friends are capable of helping one another out is a really pessimistic view of the world that - when applied broadly - results in corruption and injustice. I place a greater importance on civil society then on friendship, and I am grateful to live amongst neighbors who apparently feel the same.

> I'm not sure if age has much to do with people's feelings on the importance of "neighborliness", but since you think it matters - I am in my 40s.

I think someone's experience of major life events probably plays into this. I don't think it fully determines someone's position obviously, but I'd be pretty surprised if it didn't correlate somewhat. There are always going to be outliers though.

> I don't greet my neighbors and never have. And yet, somehow, I am still able to function in society.

I don't doubt that's true, and I didn't say you couldn't function in society either. When I lived in apartments I didn't say hi to my neighbors much either, as in that case the landlord fulfills a lot of the same type of role, and neighbors come and go much faster.

> From my perspective the idea that only friends are capable of helping one another out is a really pessimistic view of the world that - when applied broadly - results in corruption and injustice.

I agree. That would indeed be a very pessimistic view of the world. For what it's worth I don't think I said anything of the sort. I do think people are more likely to help out people they know and like though. I don't know if that's good or not, but I think it's true. Regardless, I don't know how you'd reach out to someone you didn't have contact info for, and knowing someone's routine surely helps as well.

> Those are normal expectation of living in society. Talking you your neighbour is not.

Errm.. yes, that's perfectly normal.

>decades ago in the curtain twitching world where people stayed living int he same street for decades, but not today in a highly movable world

You're simply wrong - decades ago people moved much more than they do now.

https://www.businessinsider.com/americans-are-moving-less-so...

>In 2021, 8.4% of Americans lived in a different residence than they did a year ago, per the Census Bureau's annual Current Population survey. This was not only a decline from 9.8% in 2019 and 9.3% in 2020, but the lowest "mover rate" since at least 1948 — the earliest data period measured. Back then, the mover rate was roughly 20%, and it's been on a steady decline since the 1980's.

> in very rural areas you quickly realize that your neighbors are your safety net far more than the authorities

Unless you are non-white, an immigrant, LGBTQ, neurodivergent, etc...

It's a bit odd to make such a blanket statement for people living in rural areas all over the world. These are "my peeps" and we're not any of those things.

It's not about you or "your peeps" but rather about the repressive laws (and predominant culture which gives rise to such laws) in these places.

I was specifically talking about rural areas in the US, since HN is predominantly a US-centric website, but my argument applies to other countries as well.

I've lived in rural areas and while there was some messed up stuff, your blanket statement wasn't entirely my experience.

I would suggest that, while you might find less cosmopolitan people in rural areas, they're also more willing to overlook aspects of you that they dislike. You can't really afford to be too picky about your friendships when there's not much to choose from.

>You can't really afford to be too picky about your friendships when there's not much to choose from.

Only someone extremely privileged could twist the desire for basic safety as being "picky"

No we aren’t social animals

And yet, here you are...

The fuck you doing posting your opinions on social media then?

Here's a great book recommendation for you - "The Little Book of Lykke: Secrets of the World's Happiest People" by Meik Wiking

Are you sure we can't?

I'm pretty sure there are people who live alone like up in the mountains or out in the wilderness alone and do just fine.

If you lower your standards, sure. "Just fine" is survivable, but unless one derives enjoyment out of solitude and playing "is it wet or is it cold" all the time, I don't think you'll win many people over to such viewpoints.

(I've done solo trips and hiked the AT; it's a great experience, but definitely not for everyone.)

Living in the wilderness doesn't mean living in squalor. Off-grid houses can be downright luxurious compared to the typical suburban tract McMansion.

Ah well, that is possible too. I feel that if the housing crisis is bad now, sparse off-grid housing sounds like a far worse way to solve it. And that's besides the wilderness-ruining prospects it has unless one is to build without heavy machinery (access also sounds expensive in environmental and financial costs). And with wildfires becoming more prevalent…location becomes way more important.

So again, not a solution for many in my mind (even if they want it).

The flip side of this is that -if you’re rather unlucky- being so codependent on the community can get ugly, quite fast; especially in such a remote environment. All it takes is one crazy neighbor to start turn the village against you for no particularly compelling reason.

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