Comment by zer8k | Hacker News Reader

Comment by zer8k | Hacker News Reader

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> I would rather attribute this to the rigors of society which doesn't allow for different development paths. Adulthood is a hard transition and some people need more time or different structures than others, but society doesn't allow for that. In the past these people would be vagrants until they "settled down" and could somewhat easily re-integrate back to society (employment as a stablehand could go to ferrier, horse trainer, or other land management). Now, with the need for specialization and training paired with age expectations, there's much less room.

Given the phenomenon is almost exclusively male it probably has a lot to do with the borderline hatred for masculinity in the west as well. These men lack purpose that traditional masculinity provided. Before I get downvoted to death, I am not claiming the youtube star pseudo-masculinity is a good portrayal either (rather it is a reactionary movement to the prior). But the mixture of society not caring about men's issues at all (they don't exist, allegedly), the destruction of factory/manual work, men not going to college, dating apps creating a massive imbalance in sexual selection, etc all have an effect here. The situation seems hopeless for a lot of men. Who can blame someone for not trying when society seems to have it out for them.

Society created this problem. The pendulum swinging hard from misogyny to misandry has had a dramatic negative effect on boys and men in general. We need to take the attitudes we used to raise girls up and apply them equally to boys. It starts in school. Hell, even as a successful man by society standards I still often feel society is out to get me. We have a lot of work to do and the answer is not to blame men for being lazy NEETs (which is what the pop media does).

Actually, looking into this a bit more, NEETs are not primarily men!

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/backstories/2391/ says its almost 50/50!

The original article here also says "The largest proportion of people affected [by being a hikkikomori] were in their 40s or 50s and roughly equally divided between men and women."

The Center for Economic and Policy Research actually notes significantly more female than male NEETs, though the female NEETs were also more likely to be disabled or caretaking for dependants. [0]

I doubt this is misandry in any meaningful sense.

[0] https://cepr.net/report/are-young-men-falling-behind-young-w...

Those aren't NEETs but rather unemployed men unable to continue working often they're construction workers who's bodies give out. Since they are unable to be retrained in the Japanese system they often end up destitute and homeless. Along side recently divorced women unable to re-enter into the workforce it's two issues that are occurring simultaneously. There are some forms of resources for the women but the men are often left abandoned.

Are you replying to the link I posted? One of the summary bullet points: "More than half of young women not employed or in school (54 percent) fall into one of three categories related to disability and potential care obligations — have a disability, live with a disabled adult, or live with at least one of their children — compared to just over one-third of men who are not employed or in school (35 percent)."

The male NEETs in CEPR data were less likely to have a traditionally "good reason" for being a NEET.

NEET men were only slightly more likely to be disabled themselves than NEET women, and given the higher total count of NEET women, I'd guess this breaks out to about an equal number of each gender being NEET for reasons of their own disability.

I agree there does seem to be a disparity in resources for NEETs, though.

This study [1] in the top post [2] says it's 90% men.

[1] http://ijfs.padovauniversitypress.it/system/files/papers/IJF...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36971969

That study is much older, though. 2016. This recent government study was reported on in 2023. That 90% quote actually references an even older study, 2008! It could be possible that studies on NEET people were themselves biased in 2008 in a way that future surveys have resolved. Otherwise it might indicate there's a huge wave of women withdrawing from society over the past decade or so, which is a holy fuck situation.

You correctly point out that the 2016 study might be flawed, but you don't seem to consider the same of the newer study. Why?

I like newer data than older data, especially since the 2016 study is actually referencing a 2008 study. If we assume they're both true then we shouldn't be talking about men at all, and exclusively focus on the rapid retreat of women from society!

I actually have less faith in social scientists to design an unbiased study on a sensitive topic in 2023 than I did in 2008. That was my only point

I wouldn't call it misandry. The traditional advantages that a man has enjoyed over the centuries are gradually losing in importance, yet a complementary decreasing of expectations has yet to happen. This might be creating the imbalance you are mentioning. It's not a "hate of men" but a bad transition, two pendulums out of sync if you want. Don't get me wrong, this is still bad but in a different way, and the clearer we have it the better can we react and hopefully fix it - not by reverting to "traditional" misogyny but by reaching some golden middle point whatever that is.

> The traditional advantages that a man has enjoyed over the centuries are gradually losing in importance

Like the privilege of dying in wars, working in coal mines, and working the trades that kill your back by the time you're 45 (50 if you're lucky).

Amazing. Do you honestly believe you're starting a good faith discussion when opening with this?

Some men enjoyed more privilege in the past, which was absolutely more than balanced out by the vast majority of men getting the shit end of the stick. Now it's just slightly less pronounced, because the whore world is high on exploiting hydrocarbons.

Schools are openly discriminating in favor of the female majority, while having no programs to promote the success of the male minority. Schools are less equal than when Title IX was enacted.

That’s misandry.

And it’s been happening for longer than I’ve been alive… as a middle aged man with a bald spot.

To say nothing of family court, criminal court, etc.

I think that we're getting away from the original discussion of NEETism by making this into a gender debate mostly in a western lens, even though we are talking about a global phenomenon.

Can you expand on the family court claims? From what I've heard, fathers who ask for custody are slightly favored over mothers in family court. Women only end up with custody so much more often because very few fathers ask for custody (and custody is usually not given to the unwilling).

Unfortunately most of the papers I can find are locked behind paywall (ex. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.174-1617.1...)

> the destruction of factory/manual work

Decently paying factory/manual work.

The hollowing out of manual work in many developed countries, replaced with bimodal service jobs (either high-income or low-income), is definitely a contributing factor.

"I can go out and find a decently paying job on the strength of my body, rather than what I've learned/trained" is no longer true in most developed economies.

Economically arguably, that's a good thing.

But it does leave a clear gap for people who don't want to / can't enter into the knowledge workforce.

Couple this with labor devaluing (salary and respect) at the hyper-efficient consumer businesses that do remain and provide the only entry-level jobs in many areas, and it's no surprise you have many people checking out.

> Given the phenomenon is almost exclusively male it probably has a lot to do with the borderline hatred for masculinity in the west as well.

> article about Japan

> comment was about a general case

Greentext quoting to prove you can't read is like punching yourself in the face.

fail - "generalized gender problem" is not the lense that will understand, diagnose and prescribe for all people in all places. Rather it serves to unilaterally hijack the conversation into self-referential back and forth that is unresolvable in the general case, almost by definition?

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