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Please edit out personal attacks and swipes from your HN posts. Your comment would be fine without those bits.

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Re: getting drunk on alcohol free beer. I remember one time in college at a party when I drank a large cup of Cola or Fanta something. Then colleagues laughed and told me it was half vodka.

In like 5 minutes I could barely walk. Then they laughed again, told me there was no vodka, they were joking. A minute later I was perfectly sober.

Then they laughed again and said the joke was that there's no vodka, actually it was. Predictably, minutes later I was intoxicated again.

To this day I don't know if there was vodka involved or not.

If it was anywhere near 'half vodka' you would've tasted it.

I know this from modern perspective, I make myself a tonic vodka sometimes and the ratio of tonic over vodka needs to be very high to not taste the latter.

If it was half vodka and you're t-total then:

a) You would have puked it up. b) You would have tasted the disgusting burning crap. c) You would have been out cold within an hour.

I’ll respectfully turn down the offer of drinking responsibly for any amount of time. The best medically grounded advice at this point is that the most responsible amount of alcohol to drink is zero. If you can. But then that goes to sugar as well. But I’m already used to sugar so that’s a hard sell for me, just as I assume it’ll be a hard sell to ask you to go sober. Which I won’t suggest either. If you already drink and like it, sure the best course is to keep it to a glass or two a week and have fun.

As for the “social lubricant” argument: sure people open up more once you pour a bunch of drinks in. I’ll also take your argument that maybe they truly don’t reveal their selves to sober me (I doubt it, I’m generally cooky and have multiple times been asked “are you sure you’re not drunk?”).

Also isn’t it interesting that alcohol brings out the worst qualities in many people as well? Almost every single instance of me hearing a friend having something “inappropriate” happen to them, it was in a bar or pub and there most definitely was alcohol involved. Only over the top creeps do inappropriate things when sober. I’d rather not be in a place where the likelihood of creepy shit going down skyrockets and watch a movie instead.

But what exactly do you reckon you learn from your friends or colleagues that I don’t get to? I have a good job, which I’ve progressed through quite well, so clearly I didn’t miss out on any inside detail that could have only been gleaned professionally over a drink. I have few friends but from what I hear from many, more meaningful ones than most people. Almost always when I skip a party or pub outing the next time I meet someone they just say “yeah you didn't miss much.”

If I’m missing on some secret second life that is only accessible after you sign up to permanently imbuing this drug forever, yeah I’ll pass. Sounds like a cult and it doesn’t matter what orgy or salvation it promises. Sometimes it’s more important to keep your freedom and senses than to experience everything.

I find your response very perplexing. You make this great analogy with sugar (that's really good! I'll make sure to use it in the future) and then you just kinda.. Dismiss it with a "well I'm already addicted to that" ???

I'd encourage you to take that analogy further and think about

- sugar is significantly more addictive. Almost everyone basically craves sweet things regularly. Unless predisposed to alcoholism the vast majority of people do not crave alcohol. If you start to drink and you are thinking about getting a drink when idle at work - then you have an issue and should probably stop. I get the sense from your response that you think this is the default - but I can assure you it's not. At the moment I drink about once every couple of weeks. During the pandemic I was very busy and didn't drink at all. At no point did I "want a drink". Alcoholism is a very serious issue that affect many, but for the vast majority of society this isn't a direct concern (though it seems to affect European countries a lot harder)

- sugar is consumed regularly and is vastly worse for your health that a few drinks once a week or something to that effect

- sugar has basically no social benefits for you. And basically no longer term benefits. There are no sugar orgies I'm sorry to say. It just momentarily makes you a bit happier

You can continue to not drink and life will pass you by. If you're in an alcohol consuming society you will just make fewer connections with people, make fewer friends and fall in love less. But it's doable. I think back on all my close friends - and if I didn't drink EVER I think I'd estimate I'd have 30-50% fewer friends. It's not the end of the world - but it's a significant difference. Most people are shy and take time to open up (myself included). Maybe you connect a bit, but then life makes you sail-by. I now live in a society where people drink a lot less and I constantly make acquaintances that just don't stick. A night out with some drinks doesn't fix everything, but it definitely gives people a chance to connect in a way that's much harder organically. You could argue that "real" "true" friends will connect regardless - it's probably true.. Like 60% of the time? So you leave 40% on the table

My own mental analogy would be like if you insisting everyone reach out to yo by email b/c you're worried about your privacy. Sure you'd still make some friends and still have a life.. But most people won't even bother - and they'll have their orgies on Facebook without you

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I thought it was pretty widely understood that alcohol results in behavioural changes that increase the risk of violence or "inappropriateness"

See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8729263

I spent a couple years in college station. The concept of a designated driver did not exist there. I doubt it does in any campus. The main places I’ve found myself around drunk people was in academic conferences and in work outings/happy hours. Well employed, highly educated people. Not unemployed hobos. And a good fraction of them start touching inappropriately. Sure it’s still anecdotal but I didn’t claim to anything but. What non anecdotal data are you looking for? This literally commentary on a letter to an editor in the times.

What for you seems like inappropriate touching might just be bonding for them. This is what the other commenter meant by bonding better when drunk - what is inappropriate sober suddenly becomes appropriate, and that makes people feel more connected.

Nothing wrong with not drinking, but alcohol has its pluses and minuses. I myself barely drink these days due to having small kids and getting the worst hangovers at this age, but I can't imagine I'd be the same person socially if I hadn't had alcohol when I was younger. I would not have had as good discussions with friends, nor met a fraction of the people I did (including of the opposite sex, including my wife). No health problems as a result, maybe I would have been slightly more focused in my studies, but it would hardly have made a difference to where I am now. The gained social skills vastly outweigh the lost study potential.

> That's just anecdata

Er...no. The statistics completely back this up.

https://www.ncadd.us/about-addiction/addiction-update/alcoho...

The link you have cited is good. Thanks!

But I was responding to this comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36490348

That comment had no statistics to back it up. They only presented their own anecdotes and biases.

In Spain alcohol it's basically something for granted. If you don't drink, you are the outsider, or you must be ill to not be harashed for not drinking a beer in the pub with your friends.

> Try drinking (responsibily) for a couple of years

Active preaching of alcohol, this is the dumbest advice I’ve ever heard, maybe just after some people preaching for pornography. A drunk you is objectively not any better than a sober one, rather far worse. You have one life, don’t waste it.

Bwaha, a drunk me is objectively better than a sober me. By far. :P

i would be very surprised if you are European... this very puritan approach to alcohol and life feel SO american.

I'm a European and have seen the devastating effects of alcohol on both sides of my family. I can't imagine any positive effects that would be able to offset and I've never drank a drop in my life.

> I can't imagine any positive effects that would be able to offset and I've never drank a drop in my life.

This is not without correlation.

You think observational and imaginative skills are limited to participants?

Hundreds of millions of people drink alcohol every month and lead perfectly healthy lives unaffected by addiction.

I'm sure they do. And in the US alone 30 million (give or take) people have alcohol related problems.

70 million people in America are obese. Eating food doesn't make you obese, it's over indulgence of food and using food as a coping mechanism.

But that's not a lottery, like e.g. getting lung cancer if you smoke. You can be responsible and make sure to drink a moderate amount of alcohol.

You can be. But one of the well known effects of alcohol is to impair the judgment of those that consume it which can lead to the intention to drink a moderate amount of alcohol being (substantially) surpassed.

Between drunk drivers, abused spouses and abused children there is a ton of alcohol related misery. For me personally none of the positive effects of alcohol begin to offset those. Not everybody is able to deal with addictive substances in a responsible way.

I'm perfectly ok with other people drinking (as long as they don't negatively impact others), I just saw the generalization above and figured I would contribute a slightly different point of view.

Haha, and my first thought was Saudia Arabia

I do think drinking is great, but part of it is finding what amount you're comfortable with. It's also a skill that needs to be developed. Just saying no and not even trying it... I feel bad for these people people bc they're missing out on a lot

For context I drink maybe once every couple of weeks - unless it's a particularly social period of my life. I find this a good medium for me

I bet you're fun at parties.

My life is infinitely more enjoyable waking up early to watch the sun rise while gardening instead of waking up hungover at 11 am to wonder what I did or said last night I don't remember.

Modernity sucks.

Not to be that guy, but social drinking isn’t about getting trashed every night and waking up at 1PM. Nor it’s about getting drunk so much where you don’t remember the previous night. To put into a perspective, I have a few drinks almost every night, but also go hiking or snowboarding at 6AM. Maybe it’s a PNW kinda thing, but I can guarantee I’m not an exception to the rule.

The social drinking is about grabbing a drink or two, either solo or friends, to let yourself loose a bit. It’s about temporarily changing your attitude towards your environment, maybe cracking a couple of silly jokes. Maybe sitting at a beach or a park, watching sunset while listening to your surroundings.

Moderation is the key when it comes to mind-altering substances. Obviously it’s easier to say, but if super-majority of your experiences are positive, it is ok to suffer from some mild bad experiences (agonizing hangovers a couple of times a year).

One can drink in moderation indeed. One nation can’t. When drinks are allowed, you get zillions of divorces, car crashes, mortal figths, murders, and much more every year.

Sorry, I didn’t mention that my religion prohibits the use of any and all mind altering substances. So it’s not possible for me to drink in moderation either. I’m glad for this restriction I choose to obey. I’d rather have me control me at all times rather than some altered version of myself.

Why this doesn't work while drinking tea?

Because tea is a stimulant and diuretic. A night out on tea would involve everyone getting a bit jittery and going to the toilet a lot.

So is alcohol.

>modernity sucks

Do you think there was any point anywhere in history where people weren’t enjoying drinking together?

FFS one of the miracles of the founding religion of our society is about a guy turning water into alcohol at a party! And that was thousands of years ago!

I don’t believe people ever enjoy drinking. It’s bad to have your mind altered and mental capabilities such as memory reduced, period. To do and say things you normally wouldn’t.

It’s rather that those who regularly drink can’t enjoy themselves without drinking when the time for a fix comes. It’s an addiction, even if withdrawals are less noticeable due to normalization of drinking and the regularity of the act for most people.

> It’s bad to have your mind altered

Actually no.

> and mental capabilities such as memory reduced,

OK

> To do and say things you normally wouldn’t.

Again - not really. I'm giving you 1 out of 3.

That's rather a false dichotomy. I can't remember the last time I had a proper hangover and I can see the sunrise whenever I choose (although I'm not especially an early riser - but that has been true my entire life)

For what it's worth I was a teetotaler for religious reasons till 18, they I drank through my 20s (usually 1-2 beers in pub with friends, on weddings etc I drank wódka pretty heavily cause I'm in Poland, but that was maybe twice a year thing). I stopped again in 30s for health reasons (unrelated to drinking).

There isn't much difference IMHO. Most people don't care if you drink. The single biggest issue is dancing without alcohol, but I managed in high school so I'm fine now.

That's super interesting. You feel you are connecting and making friends at the same pace? I moved from a very drink-heavy society to one where people drink very sparingly. I now often make aquaintences and have the feeling that if only I went out for some drink with them then we could potentially be friends. It never happens, and life makes up sail past each other

Maybe I'd still not connect :)) but my gut feeling is that I could at least make 30% more friends if not significantly more

I'm still going to after-work parties from time to time, I just drink nonalcoholic stuff.

The biggest difference in friend-making was when I graduated and started to work, not when I stopped drinking 5 years later. Also I was never very social to begin with. So maybe what's normal for me is "not connecting" for you :)

Yeah, I could see maybe life circumstances not bringing it out. I'm naturally quite shy and reserved and not particularly outgoing around new people. So I feel some drinks help in this regards as it set a nice social setting to open up. But for instance if you're mainly meeting friends-of-friends then I could see alcohol playing a smaller role

Interesting to think about. Thanks for the perspective :)

You also have no idea how many people look at people who drink alcohol with disgust and never invite them to their social events.

I think I would be able to take a reasonable guess at how many and it's not a very big number.

The convenience of human existence at the moment is that you can make a number of mistakes every day and it doesn't lower the chances of your survival, your ability to leave offspring, and even can't hurt your self-esteem at all.

No problem. I wouldn't like to be at an event organized by someone who looks at me with disgust for whatever reason.

im 38 years old, never seen or heard of anyone outside of maybe a particular religious group(maybe mormons?) doing something like this.

> When that does happen , it's generally because of issues of self control, a predisposition to alcoholism or bc they tried it a few times and never got used to it

Or maybe it’s because my drinking buddies got older and I saw the toll it takes on people

It’s like the day you realize how much better life is when you get a good nights sleep and then can never go back

See to me the whole idea of "drinking buddies" always felt a bit excessive.

With close friends I don't particularly need alcohol to let loose. I don't worry about how I come off or feel judged. I can be crass or obnoxious when the mood takes me. Their opinions of me have already been cemented over the years.

Sure sometimes you can get together and get trashed and turn it up a notch - but it's never necessary

To me all the benefits i illustrated are in the realm of meeting new people and making new connections - or trying to get with people from the acquaintance stage to the friend stage I suppose

Alcoholic beverages can also be incredibly tasty. There are a thousand thousand varieties of beer, wine, cider and spirits out there to try.

A couple of drinks a couple of times a month is well worth the health impact to live a little.

There are lots of beer with 0% of alcohol which are just as tasty as alcoholic ones.