First is the visibility of these pull-outs is often very poor. You'll be driving through long winding roads and then all of the sudden the pull-out appears. In an RV, you can't just slam on the breaks and swerve into the pullout, ESPECIALLY if you're going downhill.
Second, often times (in the USA at least), these pull-outs have rough terrain going in an and out of them. There will be a little bump or uneven ground that most vehicles wouldn't mind hitting every now and then, but in my rig, that causes the whole thing to sway back and forth (Class-C built on a Mercedes Sprinter). I REALLY need to upgrade the suspension.
Third is time. Since I'm slower than everyone else, people tend to pile up behind me pretty quickly. Pulling into the pull-out, coming to a complete stop, waiting for everyone to pass, then getting back up to speed takes a long time. If I did this every time there was a car behind me, it would take forever. So, I tend to wait until there's more than a few cars behind me before pulling off.
Fourth is my wife. She says I have "overly-considerate disorder" and I need to make our safety #1 and stop caring about other people so damn much.
There isn't always advance signage, so you often see them at the last second and don't have time to check the quality of the approach, check if the person behind you has enough warning, etc.
They're always far poorer quality than the road itself, so you're aggressively decelerating a heavy vehicle in usually mountainous conditions, approaching a 4"+ drop into ragged pavement or gravel. I've hit some of those spots at speed and it's felt like the vehicle was going to fall apart.
And yes, often you're going slowly because you've just let a few cars past and reentered the road, just for another person to drive up behind you and start the whole game again.
It's very very rare to find signed turnouts that are good and long enough that it's trivial to pull off the road at a reasonable speed, let people through, and then continue on without just creating more problems.
I remember turnouts in NW Idaho or closer to Spokane maybe where the signage suggested you were meant to use the shoulders to let cars pass, but they were really narrow and I wasn't sure how exactly they were meant to be used? Anyone familiar with that area? If it's not wide enough to get fully out of the lane, wouldn't the passing car just overtake using the opposite lane anyway?
It takes far less oncoming traffic distance to pass someone going 20 in the shoulder than 50 in the regular lane.
You could achieve the same effect going 20 in the lane if you could clearly signal you intended to stay slow so the other person could pass.
Here in Australia, the road trains will often signal when it's safe for you to overtake them - they're seated higher with better visibility, have far better lights for night driving, etc. But I always hear that their employers/industry discourage them from doing this, I assume out of fear of liability.
I've driven x0k miles in the US and tried signalling like this when I can tell someone desperately wants to overtake me ("go now, it's clear ahead"), but almost no one understands the intention.
IMO, most RV/truck/etc drivers dislike holding up traffic as much as the traffic dislikes being held up!
That is achieved very easily by driving a 31,000 lbs vehicle.
I can't speak about your (w|l)ife, but in my (w|l)ife, people who say this are the people who personally enjoy taking advantage of my nature, and my "overly considerate behavior" is only pointed out when someone else seems to be getting benefit at the expense of my (w|l)ife; i.e it's a statement of selfishness.
In other words, both fsckboy's wife and misc. people in their life tend to only point out that fsckboy is being "overly considerate" when it appears that fsckboy is letting someone benefit from their considerate nature. The implication is that fsckboy considers the behavior as being kind and/or safe, while their wife/companions think of it as being taken advantage of.
The broad concept of this exchange concerns where the line is between being considerate and being taken advantage of, and how others might be incentivized to view that one way or the other.
>I can't speak about your (wife), but in my (wife), people who say this are the people who personally enjoy taking advantage of my nature, and my "overly considerate behavior" is only pointed out when someone else seems to be getting benefit at the expense of my (wife); i.e it's a statement of selfishness.
err, what?
Says the same thing to people in the US (and elsewhere??) that drive in the freeway's fast lane holding everyone up for MILES. That is one of the most annoying things I face regularly on the road.
But one thing I have learned by driving 50k miles these past few years is that you never actually get there meaningfully faster. So really, everyone is better off if they just slow down and hit that cruise control.
Depends what you're driving on. If it's a freeway where you're going to hit stretches of traffic anyway or roads where there's stop signs and lights, sure. When I'm on the 5 going from SF to SD, though, yeah, the clown who's doing 60 in the left lane for miles while holding me up is very much increasing the amount of time I have to spend on the road.
When I was making that drive every other week I hated the slow pokes. There are only some many times you can look forward to a stop in Tomah, WI
Not to mention, waiting behind a needlessly slow driver is just annoying. Mental costs are real, especially when operating heavy machinery.
What's the deal with a truck going 54 in the right lane being overtaken by another truck going 55 in the left lane? Does he not see him? Slow down, let him in, and the rest of us can get on with our day.
As well, 20%, or say a difference between going 10km over vs 10km under on a 5hr trip, is an hour and that's not nothing :-/
Or worse, people don't see turn signals enough to know what they mean, and just adds to the confusion.
Also, people seem to really bunch up in some regions. Having a gap that is several car lengths in front of you actually helps traffic flow smoother (and thus faster.) I feel like aggressive/impatient drivers who cut people off create this culture where I live and then ultimately end up slowing everyone (including themselves) down.
People here are commenting how it's wrong for long drives, so I'll chip in with how it's wrong for a short drive too.
South bay to Sacramento in a Chevy bolt. I can drive 55mph and do the round trip on one full battery charge. Or I can drive 75mph and save so much time that it more than makes up for the necessary mid trip charge up in Davis on the return.
For example, when you’re driving more than 6 hours in a day, which is not uncommon for Americans, especially ones living west of Mississippi, extra 10 mph of average speed means you’re getting to your destination 1+ hour faster, which most definitely is a significant difference.
It's a heck of a lot easier to make up half an hour by making quicker stops than it is to make it up on the road IMHO.
You: "Averaging 10-20mph faster is very difficult on anything but the least congested roads."
Either you're blatantly ignoring what the parent said ("west of the Mississippi"), which does not exactly amount to polite discourse, or you're commenting authoritatively on a set of roads which you clearly know nothing about.
I'd be surprised though if those roads didn't have roadworks, slower vehicles overtaking one another, accidents, bends, reduced speed sections etc. Certainly the roads I've driven in 10 or so other countries had these things in common.
This, for sure.
Those of us who live in the midwest are often hours of boring highway driving aware from anything, so a long weekend trip does require getting where we're going as quickly as reasonably possible.
Being stuck behind some nitwit who insists on pacing the semi truck next to them at 60 MPH rather than doing the 80+ everyone else on the highway wants to go is incredibly annoying.
Absolutely not. The legal limit should mean it is objectively unsafe to go faster in clear conditions no matter what you're driving. It is not supposed to be the speed you expect most traffic to go. If the average speed of traffic on a road is 85 MPH and people aren't constantly screwing that up, the limit (if there is one at all) should be meaningfully higher than that.
And of course if people are regularly screwing up at whatever the natural speed of the road may be, the correct answer is ALWAYS to change the road and reduce the speed people feel comfortable driving at. Lowering the limit below the natural speed doesn't actually reduce the speed of traffic unless there's active enforcement forcing people to comply. Redesigning the road makes people actually want to go the desired speed. A fast road is a fast road, no matter what number someone puts on a sign next to it.
> Stopping distance is not linear with speed, damage in a crash is not linear with speed (hello deer), gas usage is not linear with speed.
That's why I'm talking specifically about long, flat, straight stretches of road with effectively infinite visibility during the daytime. These are common in the American midwest, there are plenty of stretches where you can literally see the road disappear off over the horizon in a perfectly straight line. The same sorts of situations where the Germans go to unlimited, and it works just fine for them.
> No one who drives over 80 has grounds to complain about gas price, especially in large suvs or pickups.
No argument here. My car gets better MPG at 100 MPH than a lot of SUVs get at 65 MPH so I could not possibly care less, but you also won't ever hear me whining about gas prices.
Most Americans do less than 5000 miles per year. You totter to the shops and back over distances that people in other countries would just walk.
You can spot American tourists in Scotland, because they can't cope with everything being 200 miles apart when they drive at a maximum of 15mph.
The FHWA (Federal Highway Administration) states that the average person drives around 13,500 miles per year.
Most people barely drive further than the end of their street.
Better yet, since my car is old and I don’t maintain it, I will drive 50 on the highway in the middle lane so everyone has to drive around me.
Who gives a shit about other people anyways. Them driving faster than me is a problem but not the other way around.
Deliberately driving at a faster or slower speed than traffic for no good reason is the definition of unsafe driving. Please surrender your driver's license before you kill someone with that attitude.
My sentiment remains nonetheless: Anyone who deliberately breaks the flow of traffic for no good reason is a danger to other drivers.
I refuse to drive more than 5mph above the speed limit after a particular incident a few years back. I drive quite a bit on a 3 lane 75mph highway. Consistently, I'll end up behind someone who doesn't know what speed they want to go in the middle lane, something between 65mph and 75mph. They're mostly 18 wheelers. I'll usually move over to the passing lane and go between 75mph and 80mph until I pass them.
Inevitably, there's some asshole that wants to go 90mph that appears out of the ether as soon as I start passing. They always want to be less than a second behind me, and never seem to understand that I want to keep at least 3s between me and the car in front. I always imagine they're saying the same thing you're saying in their heads.
Most of them go back to the right/slow lane when they're done passing any trucks and other slow traffic. Even on the I-5 it's not like the right/slow lane is an unbroken line of trucks from Mexico to Canada, you know.
Then why the f*ck are they in the left lane?!
If it's the fastlane, then there are other lanes.
I suspect the person is doing the speed limit, maybe a bit over, in the fast lane -- and you're just and ASSHOLE.
In these scenarios it's usually two lanes in each direction, and the slow lane is filled with a line of semi trucks that have hard limiters set somewhere in the 65 MPH range and can not go faster no matter what, even if the highway limit is 70 or higher. Those truck drivers will do anything they can to maintain their max speed.
Some utter jackass then decides they don't want to be behind the trucks, but they also don't want to go faster than the trucks, and we end up with a line of annoyed traffic led by one dipshit.
> I suspect the person is doing the speed limit, maybe a bit over, in the fast lane -- and you're just and ASSHOLE.
Your position assumes the posted speed limit is set reasonably. Here's a hint: It's usually not on highways. I mean ffs there are eight lane divided highways with 55 MPH posted limits. You can't possibly defend that nonsense.
Most controlled-access highways the speed limits should start at 75 and as proven by the Germans beyond any doubt ∞ is a perfectly reasonable limit for rural stretches with good visibility and quality pavement.
Beyond all that, you are not the cops. It is not your job to enforce posted speed limits. If you are intentionally choosing to get in the way of a line of traffic when you have a reasonable option to not do that, YOU are the asshole.
I just can't even contemplate the level of selfishness it would take to be in the passing lane, looking at a line of annoyed drivers behind you and open road in front, thinking "man all those people are assholes for wanting to get past ME".
(For record and clarification I do not condone that approach :)
Being excessively considerate of others on the road is safer from my experience.
But a pull out is just that. It’s a pull out. They are typically very short such that one has to pull in and fully stop. They are often found are on narrow roads in windy coastal, mountain or river canyons where putting in a passing lane is not feasible.
Yeah why would people expect anyone to do that?
I guess I expect people to be reasonable, but comments in HN should have taught me better by now.
> coming to a complete stop
You're not meant to come to a stop. That absolutely kills what momentum you do have. It's exceptionally difficult to start a heavy vehicle from a stop. You're meant to pull out, maybe slow down a little, then pull back in, cars be damned. Some cars will pass, maybe not all. The new lead set of cars will get by at the next pullout, and so on in incremental fashion.
But what happens in practice is that the first or 2nd idiot behind you does not prepare in advance and then does not race like mad when you go into the pullout, thereby allowing as many following cars as possible to also make the pass. Even if that first car did execute it correctly, the 2nd car likely does not. Then the 2nd or maybe 3rd car is "in the breach" when the pullout lane ends, blocking your (RV) re-entry and forcing you to stop. Then you're doubly fooked. You have to start from a complete stop and you're at the very end of the pullout lane, with no speedup zone at all.
... this is why we can't have nice things ...
My daily commute involves a 2 lane highway (ie, 1 lane each direction) with a pullout for slow moving vehicles. Semi trucks and other heavy construction type vehicles use this road a lot, as it's the only viable route. They do almost always use the pullout, but they pull back in at the end without regard for anyone in the traffic lane. They have to -- they are even worse than any RV on getting started from a stop again. So I see this crap driving from the auto drivers almost every day. If I happen to be the first car waiting behind a truck, I race on past and then it's always the case that only 1 other car in a long line also make it past, when 6-7 should be making it. I also frequently witness the slow passing fool have to slam his brakes as the truck re-enters the lane.
I don't fault any RV for not using the pullout lanes.
The "cars be damned" part would be a collision, with the RV at fault. No thanks.
And the pullouts are not long enough to keep rolling, you have to come to a stop to have a chance to pick up speed again when there's a gap, otherwise you've just rolled to the end of the pullout and now you're sitting still with no room to accelerate before pulling into traffic.
The turnouts designed for slow moving vehicles to let others pass, at least to my experience these are almost always signed far enough in advance (I'm sure there's a vehicle code mandating distance of signage) and they are at least ten or tens of car lengths long.
I think you are asking too much for any vehicle to pull out into one of those tinier kind of little turnouts for the sake of normal kind of driving/passing activity.
> The "cars be damned" part would be a collision, with the RV at fault. No thanks.
Agreed and this is why i would never use them were I driving an RV, and I don't blame others for not doing it. I'm just noting that I see the big trucks do this all the time. I'd estimate once a month I end up behind slow car panic stopping when he realizes the truck isn't having it.
Ignoring those clearly-marked, friendly, and predictable pullouts, practically everything else is a total crapshoot you really don't know what it's going to be like until you've already driven past it. With a 38-foot 31,000 lbs class A, we made it the passenger's job to call out whether a pullout was safe or not, because the driver just didn't have enough time to notice it. Often we did manage to pull out of traffic for a moment and let 3-10 cars pass, but sometimes it just wasn't feasible.
Only you would know, but this could be something other than what it seems like.
When I had a motorcycle, I'd tail a slow vehicle for miles in anticipation of a passing zone. When we got there, they'd all of a sudden accelerate-- which I always assumed was them fucking with me, until one day I realized I do the same thing myself when in a car.
We speed up when we perceive it is safe to do so (long stretches of straight road), similar to unconsciously letting off the gas when you notice a cop running a speed trap.
If this is what you encounter, it may be an unconscious thing, or the RV driver consciously speeding up for your convenience. If they're swerving, consider that they're tall and wind pushes them around easily.
But they could also just be dicks, sure.
There's a mountain pass I travel a few times a year where this happens.
The limit is 45 mph throughout the curves, and that's a reasonable speed, though I prefer to go a bit faster, but will inevitably get stuck behind someone going 35.
We reach a point where there's a passing lane, and the limit is 55 mph. I try to pass the person that was going 35 mph before, and suddenly they seem to think that 70 mph is a reasonable speed. I have to pass these people regardless of how fast they want to go when there's a passing lane, because otherwise, I'll get stuck behind them once the passing lane ends and they decide to drop back down to 10 under the limit.
Luckily, these days, I have a car that can easily pass 98% of the other cars on the road, and the remaining 2% are already going at speed.
Be careful; getting locked into "have to" can make you do dangerous things.
be aware of the other people on the road and show some courtesy? before speeding up check and see if there are people behind you and let them pass before coming up to speed.
it's really not that hard
for clarity, a safe driver would maintain a lower speed to allow the car line to pass.
> a safe driver would maintain a lower speed to allow the car line to pass.
They can totally pass, I'm just going the speed limit. Generally the passing lane is open for a couple of miles going up, they should have time to pass.
(this only applies to mountain highway driving anyways, where I'm at, the passing lanes are designed for trucks who can't go very fast up the hills, it isn't for idiots who want to go 85 around 35 MPH curves)
its your own fault if you choose to be a selfish unsafe & uncourteous driver who only cares about themself
The thing people don't realize is that speed limit advisory signs (on turns or downhills usually) are essentially mandatory for high CG vehicles - to avoid rollover risk.
To help you understand some reasons to refuse a pullout, here are the conditions that I think must be true for an RV or heavy truck to safely and practically use a pullout: (Maybe I'm missing something)
1) Vehicle is slower than the speed limit or lower than the safety speed advisory by more than 10 mph. (Yes, this is annoying for people that want to exceed the speed limit, but they can use passing lanes.)
2) Pullout must be visibly paved and clear for entry in advance of safe braking distance. (This is often a problem.)
3) The pullout must have good visibility behind it so the vehicle can safely get back up to speed from 0 after stopping. (Sometimes a problem.)
4) Traffic must be light enough such that rejoining the travel lane is feasible in less than a couple minutes. (This is often a problem.)
5) The pullout must have a safe path to return to the travel lane. (I have had to balk pullout attempts after nearing the pullout because this is not always immediately clear at a distance.)
6) Most importantly, the vehicle must not be followed either at an unsafe distance or by someone driving erratically. (I am not going to risk damage to my vehicle by braking for someone following too closely.)
edit:formatting
Ah, Washington drivers! Paying no attention at all until someone nears their space, then all of a sudden VERY attentive and territorial yet unwilling to be actually aggressive, so instead just kind of interfering.
Highway driving at its finest.
How does this make you feel?
>>Ah, Washington drivers! Paying no attention at all until someone nears their space, then all of a sudden VERY attentive and territorial yet unwilling to be actually aggressive, so instead just kind of interfering.
>>Highway driving at its finest.
>>> Every single place you have lived has the worst drivers. Except for you.
>>> How does this make you feel?
It's the darndest thing: anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac and anyone who drives slower than me is a moron. Curiouser and curiouser.
And I want the people who drive slower than me to be as far behind me as possible. That way when their terrible driving causes them to crash in a fiery explosion, I'm not anywhere near them.
But I've never had much trouble getting the people who want to drive faster than me to go in front of me by just... letting them pass. Whereas the people who drive slower than me, now those are the assholes.
In DFW, when a gentle rain starts the calming sound of raindrops is followed by police and fire truck sirens as everyone loses their mind and starts crashing into each other on the roads for no reason.
I can't think of a road or situation here in South Australia where anyone would need to be worried about either of those things to that heightened level. Yeah, take it easier when wet or foggy, or when tired, and drunk drivers exist, but not to the point of seriously warning people on a particular route.
When I lived near Santa Cruz for a year and had to commute to Silicon Valley, I got very good at driving that stretch, knowing when I could do the curves fast, and when I needed to be cautious.
But if you're not a 'regular' on that road? Your advice was well-warranted.
In my experience most drivers are not very aware of their surroundings and just seem to do stupid things like form rolling roadblocks by accident. I wonder if RVs are just more noticeable because they are longer, and so their accidental traps tend to be bigger. The other vehicles that size are typically driven by professionals, who are at least a little more with-it. Usually.
Usually doesn't bother me as much, and if I had adaptive cruise I'd be even less unbothered, but it can be annoying.
RVs are like moving rental trucks, the drivers of them don't really know what they're doing.
I used to live in a small tourist town, and people died on a regular basis because of RVs doing that. You could spot the local drivers because they're the ones hugging the fog line when going around a bend.
Many RVs are 8.5 feet wide. Common highway lanes are 10 feet wide. There are curvy highways like route 1 that I swear are only 9' wide. I worry more about line selection and holding my rig inside the yellows than I worry about line selection when I'm racing my motorcycle. It's challenging for me and I drive things as a sport. I'm not covering for someone who went over the yellows, that's unforgivable, but I wanted to add some context for you.
In fact, there are advisory speed signs for those curves that are accurate -- if people followed them, there would rarely be an issue. Part of the problem, I think, is that if you're driving a car, those advisory speeds are far too slow (15-20 MPH on a 50 MPH road), but if you're driving an RV or big rig, those advisory speeds are critical. I think most non-pro drivers are used to driving cars and have trained themselves to ignore those signs.
I honestly think that people should have special training to be allowed to drive RVs, or at least the larger RVs. Something like a motorcycle tag.
> Common highway lanes are 10 feet wide.
These roads are also narrower than modern ones (they are some of the earliest "highways" built in the state). When I drove an RV on them, I tended to white-knuckle it. They're rather nervous-making.
Most drivers think they're above average at minimum in their driving skill; most could use to take both a basic math course and a driver's safety class.
Many states have such rules, e.g. California & Texas.
I just recently tried to use the side lane in DK to let others pass (set signal, decelerate, pull over as far as possible). It actually confused the other drivers so much that they didn't dare to take over, even when there was lots of space to do so.
Often they are a short paved lane meant for slow vehicles to pull off onto to allow slower traffic to pass, but often on mountain roads, it's a gravel off-road area that serves the same purpose. But pulling into one can be a bumpy ride, and the gravel service means it's hard to accelerate quickly until you get fully back on the road so you need to be sure you have a lot of clear space behind you (which can be hard to ensure on twisty mountain roads).
I think they are more like what we'd refer to as truck stops - an area off the road where you can pull over to stop.
I'd note this quote:
> Second, often times (in the USA at least), these pull-outs have rough terrain going in an and out of them. There will be a little bump or uneven ground that most vehicles wouldn't mind hitting every now and then, but in my rig, that causes the whole thing to sway back and forth ...
> Pulling into the pull-out, coming to a complete stop, waiting for everyone to pass..
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36410014
These aren't things that happen with overtaking lanes.
What they're talking about are turnout lanes which are a lane beside the road with no median/barrier and you're expected to slow down or maybe stop very briefly, purely to let faster traffic through. There are some up on the road past Pichi Richi Park to Quorn if you ever drive through the Southern Flinders, but they're not overly common in SA.
I've seen them formally in northern USA (Idaho going into Washington state, maybe) where they are risky and unclear, and I've seen informal ones on roads east of the Sierra Nevada which are like your quote - rough, unpredictable poorly laid asphalt or gravel.
An RV is 20-30+ feet long. Thirty feet isn't enough time to slow and stop at speed. Let alone build up speed and reenter the main route. Even the one in your picture (much longer than 30') is an example of one that is risky for an RVer to use. People would use that to stop and take a photo or take their kid to the toilet, but proper ones are closer to an actual lane as in, same surface as the road, and longer. And no one would stop on them other than for 10 seconds to let traffic pass. Here's one on the southern side of Flinders Ranges Way here in South Australia (where I assume @NL still lives):
https://www.google.com.au/maps/search/quorn/@-32.4561221,137...
As I understand English, that phrase literally means you're using that lane to overtake someone else, when in fact the opposite is occurring.
Scotland has tons of these in rural areas, where the roads are literal single-track (only one lane wide). Used for on-coming traffic instead passing. It works fine, because the speeds are low and people are used it.
https://california.public.law/codes/ca_veh_code_section_2165...
I've been behind plenty of RVs who don't drive as fast as I want to. But that's what happens on a public road. (These RVs still drive at a reasonable speed, just not as fast as I want to. IE 48mph in a 50 when I want to drive 55.)
The big problem is obvious drivers, who often are in passenger cars. I've been stuck behind far more oblivious drivers than RVs. These drivers do 20 in a 50, and ignore the long line of cars behind them.
Gotta disagree here. Almost always when I get stuck behind something going 20 under, whether it's an RV or a Corolla, the driver of that vehicle blows past every available pullout and accelerates to 30+ over when a passing lane appears. Drivers are just raging assholes, no matter what they're driving.
I spent several months living out of my car+tent in national parks/forests and often referred to them as Ruins Views. Breathtaking scenery in those national parks, that you can't focus on when you're stuck in a line of twenty cars riding your brakes and smelling theirs, because Big Bob doesn't want to get his tippy palace going too fast.
I do get the appeal, but lugging around so much tonnage seems like a recipe for a bad time. Now I'm at a different life stage where I've been doing a bunch of towing with an underpowered SUV, and I make it a point to get out of peoples' ways. Luckily most of that has been on multilane highways where it's easy to do so.
Just keeping a car on a road with no traffic takes a fair amount of focus: for evidence, just see how many people don’t do it and plow into objects that are alongside the road.
Obviously, driving requires attention and is always one's main focus. Having driven various sizes of vehicles, it's quite clear that this amount of attention varies. For example, the sheer amount of work required to drive a 26 foot box truck gave me a healthy respect for truck drivers. On the original topic, I'd imagine a lot of RV drivers don't pull over or are actively hostile to being passed because they're so overwhelmed they don't want to pile on any more requirements. And while this means that they should be taking the opportunity to stop and recover, try telling someone who is drowning to stop thrashing.
Piloting a 2500 lb manual coupe barefoot in a non-wooded area on an empty road requires the lowest amount of work I've experienced. Driving that same car while having to continually gauge how hard the person in front of you is applying the brakes takes much more. Braking extra and creating more buffer room gives a slight reprieve, but at the ailing speeds ruined views tend to go on non-straight roads you'll inevitably catch right back up.
This makes no sense. If someone was blasting a trunk-shaking car stereo and I was complaining about that instead, would you say they had just as much right to "enjoy the national park" ? How about someone using a dirtbike on a trail? The way we keep these things enjoyable is by setting standards. And the examples that come to mind are roads where the prevailing speed was something like 35-40mph, but these big rigs were clogging them up at 15-20mph.
> My point is that if you want to enjoy the scenery, you need to get out of the driver's seat.
This is obviously false. Even the park maps point out scenic driving routes.
Driving a huge RV I have trouble seeing and pulling off at my destination, let alone a fall-off-the-road-into-dirt pullout that comes up quickly around a turn.