Things I wish I’d known before fulltime RVing (2017)
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wheelingit.us
I just recently tried to use the side lane in DK to let others pass (set signal, decelerate, pull over as far as possible). It actually confused the other drivers so much that they didn't dare to take over, even when there was lots of space to do so.
https://california.public.law/codes/ca_veh_code_section_2165...
I spent several months living out of my car+tent in national parks/forests and often referred to them as Ruins Views. Breathtaking scenery in those national parks, that you can't focus on when you're stuck in a line of twenty cars riding your brakes and smelling theirs, because Big Bob doesn't want to get his tippy palace going too fast.
I do get the appeal, but lugging around so much tonnage seems like a recipe for a bad time. Now I'm at a different life stage where I've been doing a bunch of towing with an underpowered SUV, and I make it a point to get out of peoples' ways. Luckily most of that has been on multilane highways where it's easy to do so.
Just keeping a car on a road with no traffic takes a fair amount of focus: for evidence, just see how many people don’t do it and plow into objects that are alongside the road.
Obviously, driving requires attention and is always one's main focus. Having driven various sizes of vehicles, it's quite clear that this amount of attention varies. For example, the sheer amount of work required to drive a 26 foot box truck gave me a healthy respect for truck drivers. On the original topic, I'd imagine a lot of RV drivers don't pull over or are actively hostile to being passed because they're so overwhelmed they don't want to pile on any more requirements. And while this means that they should be taking the opportunity to stop and recover, try telling someone who is drowning to stop thrashing.
Piloting a 2500 lb manual coupe barefoot in a non-wooded area on an empty road requires the lowest amount of work I've experienced. Driving that same car while having to continually gauge how hard the person in front of you is applying the brakes takes much more. Braking extra and creating more buffer room gives a slight reprieve, but at the ailing speeds ruined views tend to go on non-straight roads you'll inevitably catch right back up.
This makes no sense. If someone was blasting a trunk-shaking car stereo and I was complaining about that instead, would you say they had just as much right to "enjoy the national park" ? How about someone using a dirtbike on a trail? The way we keep these things enjoyable is by setting standards. And the examples that come to mind are roads where the prevailing speed was something like 35-40mph, but these big rigs were clogging them up at 15-20mph.
> My point is that if you want to enjoy the scenery, you need to get out of the driver's seat.
This is obviously false. Even the park maps point out scenic driving routes.
In my experience most drivers are not very aware of their surroundings and just seem to do stupid things like form rolling roadblocks by accident. I wonder if RVs are just more noticeable because they are longer, and so their accidental traps tend to be bigger. The other vehicles that size are typically driven by professionals, who are at least a little more with-it. Usually.
Usually doesn't bother me as much, and if I had adaptive cruise I'd be even less unbothered, but it can be annoying.
RVs are like moving rental trucks, the drivers of them don't really know what they're doing.
First is the visibility of these pull-outs is often very poor. You'll be driving through long winding roads and then all of the sudden the pull-out appears. In an RV, you can't just slam on the breaks and swerve into the pullout, ESPECIALLY if you're going downhill.
Second, often times (in the USA at least), these pull-outs have rough terrain going in an and out of them. There will be a little bump or uneven ground that most vehicles wouldn't mind hitting every now and then, but in my rig, that causes the whole thing to sway back and forth (Class-C built on a Mercedes Sprinter). I REALLY need to upgrade the suspension.
Third is time. Since I'm slower than everyone else, people tend to pile up behind me pretty quickly. Pulling into the pull-out, coming to a complete stop, waiting for everyone to pass, then getting back up to speed takes a long time. If I did this every time there was a car behind me, it would take forever. So, I tend to wait until there's more than a few cars behind me before pulling off.
Fourth is my wife. She says I have "overly-considerate disorder" and I need to make our safety #1 and stop caring about other people so damn much.
Says the same thing to people in the US (and elsewhere??) that drive in the freeway's fast lane holding everyone up for MILES. That is one of the most annoying things I face regularly on the road.
But one thing I have learned by driving 50k miles these past few years is that you never actually get there meaningfully faster. So really, everyone is better off if they just slow down and hit that cruise control.
Depends what you're driving on. If it's a freeway where you're going to hit stretches of traffic anyway or roads where there's stop signs and lights, sure. When I'm on the 5 going from SF to SD, though, yeah, the clown who's doing 60 in the left lane for miles while holding me up is very much increasing the amount of time I have to spend on the road.
Not to mention, waiting behind a needlessly slow driver is just annoying. Mental costs are real, especially when operating heavy machinery.
When I was making that drive every other week I hated the slow pokes. There are only some many times you can look forward to a stop in Tomah, WI
What's the deal with a truck going 54 in the right lane being overtaken by another truck going 55 in the left lane? Does he not see him? Slow down, let him in, and the rest of us can get on with our day.
As well, 20%, or say a difference between going 10km over vs 10km under on a 5hr trip, is an hour and that's not nothing :-/
Or worse, people don't see turn signals enough to know what they mean, and just adds to the confusion.
Also, people seem to really bunch up in some regions. Having a gap that is several car lengths in front of you actually helps traffic flow smoother (and thus faster.) I feel like aggressive/impatient drivers who cut people off create this culture where I live and then ultimately end up slowing everyone (including themselves) down.
Better yet, since my car is old and I don’t maintain it, I will drive 50 on the highway in the middle lane so everyone has to drive around me.
Who gives a shit about other people anyways. Them driving faster than me is a problem but not the other way around.
Deliberately driving at a faster or slower speed than traffic for no good reason is the definition of unsafe driving. Please surrender your driver's license before you kill someone with that attitude.
My sentiment remains nonetheless: Anyone who deliberately breaks the flow of traffic for no good reason is a danger to other drivers.
For example, when you’re driving more than 6 hours in a day, which is not uncommon for Americans, especially ones living west of Mississippi, extra 10 mph of average speed means you’re getting to your destination 1+ hour faster, which most definitely is a significant difference.
This, for sure.
Those of us who live in the midwest are often hours of boring highway driving aware from anything, so a long weekend trip does require getting where we're going as quickly as reasonably possible.
Being stuck behind some nitwit who insists on pacing the semi truck next to them at 60 MPH rather than doing the 80+ everyone else on the highway wants to go is incredibly annoying.
Absolutely not. The legal limit should mean it is objectively unsafe to go faster in clear conditions no matter what you're driving. It is not supposed to be the speed you expect most traffic to go. If the average speed of traffic on a road is 85 MPH and people aren't constantly screwing that up, the limit (if there is one at all) should be meaningfully higher than that.
And of course if people are regularly screwing up at whatever the natural speed of the road may be, the correct answer is ALWAYS to change the road and reduce the speed people feel comfortable driving at. Lowering the limit below the natural speed doesn't actually reduce the speed of traffic unless there's active enforcement forcing people to comply. Redesigning the road makes people actually want to go the desired speed. A fast road is a fast road, no matter what number someone puts on a sign next to it.
> Stopping distance is not linear with speed, damage in a crash is not linear with speed (hello deer), gas usage is not linear with speed.
That's why I'm talking specifically about long, flat, straight stretches of road with effectively infinite visibility during the daytime. These are common in the American midwest, there are plenty of stretches where you can literally see the road disappear off over the horizon in a perfectly straight line. The same sorts of situations where the Germans go to unlimited, and it works just fine for them.
> No one who drives over 80 has grounds to complain about gas price, especially in large suvs or pickups.
No argument here. My car gets better MPG at 100 MPH than a lot of SUVs get at 65 MPH so I could not possibly care less, but you also won't ever hear me whining about gas prices.
It's a heck of a lot easier to make up half an hour by making quicker stops than it is to make it up on the road IMHO.
You: "Averaging 10-20mph faster is very difficult on anything but the least congested roads."
Either you're blatantly ignoring what the parent said ("west of the Mississippi"), which does not exactly amount to polite discourse, or you're commenting authoritatively on a set of roads which you clearly know nothing about.
I'd be surprised though if those roads didn't have roadworks, slower vehicles overtaking one another, accidents, bends, reduced speed sections etc. Certainly the roads I've driven in 10 or so other countries had these things in common.
Most Americans do less than 5000 miles per year. You totter to the shops and back over distances that people in other countries would just walk.
You can spot American tourists in Scotland, because they can't cope with everything being 200 miles apart when they drive at a maximum of 15mph.
The FHWA (Federal Highway Administration) states that the average person drives around 13,500 miles per year.
Most people barely drive further than the end of their street.
People here are commenting how it's wrong for long drives, so I'll chip in with how it's wrong for a short drive too.
South bay to Sacramento in a Chevy bolt. I can drive 55mph and do the round trip on one full battery charge. Or I can drive 75mph and save so much time that it more than makes up for the necessary mid trip charge up in Davis on the return.
Then why the f*ck are they in the left lane?!
Most of them go back to the right/slow lane when they're done passing any trucks and other slow traffic. Even on the I-5 it's not like the right/slow lane is an unbroken line of trucks from Mexico to Canada, you know.
If it's the fastlane, then there are other lanes.
I suspect the person is doing the speed limit, maybe a bit over, in the fast lane -- and you're just and ASSHOLE.
In these scenarios it's usually two lanes in each direction, and the slow lane is filled with a line of semi trucks that have hard limiters set somewhere in the 65 MPH range and can not go faster no matter what, even if the highway limit is 70 or higher. Those truck drivers will do anything they can to maintain their max speed.
Some utter jackass then decides they don't want to be behind the trucks, but they also don't want to go faster than the trucks, and we end up with a line of annoyed traffic led by one dipshit.
> I suspect the person is doing the speed limit, maybe a bit over, in the fast lane -- and you're just and ASSHOLE.
Your position assumes the posted speed limit is set reasonably. Here's a hint: It's usually not on highways. I mean ffs there are eight lane divided highways with 55 MPH posted limits. You can't possibly defend that nonsense.
Most controlled-access highways the speed limits should start at 75 and as proven by the Germans beyond any doubt ∞ is a perfectly reasonable limit for rural stretches with good visibility and quality pavement.
Beyond all that, you are not the cops. It is not your job to enforce posted speed limits. If you are intentionally choosing to get in the way of a line of traffic when you have a reasonable option to not do that, YOU are the asshole.
I just can't even contemplate the level of selfishness it would take to be in the passing lane, looking at a line of annoyed drivers behind you and open road in front, thinking "man all those people are assholes for wanting to get past ME".
I refuse to drive more than 5mph above the speed limit after a particular incident a few years back. I drive quite a bit on a 3 lane 75mph highway. Consistently, I'll end up behind someone who doesn't know what speed they want to go in the middle lane, something between 65mph and 75mph. They're mostly 18 wheelers. I'll usually move over to the passing lane and go between 75mph and 80mph until I pass them.
Inevitably, there's some asshole that wants to go 90mph that appears out of the ether as soon as I start passing. They always want to be less than a second behind me, and never seem to understand that I want to keep at least 3s between me and the car in front. I always imagine they're saying the same thing you're saying in their heads.
(For record and clarification I do not condone that approach :)
I can't speak about your (w|l)ife, but in my (w|l)ife, people who say this are the people who personally enjoy taking advantage of my nature, and my "overly considerate behavior" is only pointed out when someone else seems to be getting benefit at the expense of my (w|l)ife; i.e it's a statement of selfishness.
In other words, both fsckboy's wife and misc. people in their life tend to only point out that fsckboy is being "overly considerate" when it appears that fsckboy is letting someone benefit from their considerate nature. The implication is that fsckboy considers the behavior as being kind and/or safe, while their wife/companions think of it as being taken advantage of.
The broad concept of this exchange concerns where the line is between being considerate and being taken advantage of, and how others might be incentivized to view that one way or the other.
>I can't speak about your (wife), but in my (wife), people who say this are the people who personally enjoy taking advantage of my nature, and my "overly considerate behavior" is only pointed out when someone else seems to be getting benefit at the expense of my (wife); i.e it's a statement of selfishness.
err, what?
Being excessively considerate of others on the road is safer from my experience.
There isn't always advance signage, so you often see them at the last second and don't have time to check the quality of the approach, check if the person behind you has enough warning, etc.
They're always far poorer quality than the road itself, so you're aggressively decelerating a heavy vehicle in usually mountainous conditions, approaching a 4"+ drop into ragged pavement or gravel. I've hit some of those spots at speed and it's felt like the vehicle was going to fall apart.
And yes, often you're going slowly because you've just let a few cars past and reentered the road, just for another person to drive up behind you and start the whole game again.
It's very very rare to find signed turnouts that are good and long enough that it's trivial to pull off the road at a reasonable speed, let people through, and then continue on without just creating more problems.
I remember turnouts in NW Idaho or closer to Spokane maybe where the signage suggested you were meant to use the shoulders to let cars pass, but they were really narrow and I wasn't sure how exactly they were meant to be used? Anyone familiar with that area? If it's not wide enough to get fully out of the lane, wouldn't the passing car just overtake using the opposite lane anyway?
It takes far less oncoming traffic distance to pass someone going 20 in the shoulder than 50 in the regular lane.
You could achieve the same effect going 20 in the lane if you could clearly signal you intended to stay slow so the other person could pass.
Here in Australia, the road trains will often signal when it's safe for you to overtake them - they're seated higher with better visibility, have far better lights for night driving, etc. But I always hear that their employers/industry discourage them from doing this, I assume out of fear of liability.
I've driven x0k miles in the US and tried signalling like this when I can tell someone desperately wants to overtake me ("go now, it's clear ahead"), but almost no one understands the intention.
IMO, most RV/truck/etc drivers dislike holding up traffic as much as the traffic dislikes being held up!
That is achieved very easily by driving a 31,000 lbs vehicle.
But a pull out is just that. It’s a pull out. They are typically very short such that one has to pull in and fully stop. They are often found are on narrow roads in windy coastal, mountain or river canyons where putting in a passing lane is not feasible.
Yeah why would people expect anyone to do that?
I guess I expect people to be reasonable, but comments in HN should have taught me better by now.
> coming to a complete stop
You're not meant to come to a stop. That absolutely kills what momentum you do have. It's exceptionally difficult to start a heavy vehicle from a stop. You're meant to pull out, maybe slow down a little, then pull back in, cars be damned. Some cars will pass, maybe not all. The new lead set of cars will get by at the next pullout, and so on in incremental fashion.
But what happens in practice is that the first or 2nd idiot behind you does not prepare in advance and then does not race like mad when you go into the pullout, thereby allowing as many following cars as possible to also make the pass. Even if that first car did execute it correctly, the 2nd car likely does not. Then the 2nd or maybe 3rd car is "in the breach" when the pullout lane ends, blocking your (RV) re-entry and forcing you to stop. Then you're doubly fooked. You have to start from a complete stop and you're at the very end of the pullout lane, with no speedup zone at all.
... this is why we can't have nice things ...
My daily commute involves a 2 lane highway (ie, 1 lane each direction) with a pullout for slow moving vehicles. Semi trucks and other heavy construction type vehicles use this road a lot, as it's the only viable route. They do almost always use the pullout, but they pull back in at the end without regard for anyone in the traffic lane. They have to -- they are even worse than any RV on getting started from a stop again. So I see this crap driving from the auto drivers almost every day. If I happen to be the first car waiting behind a truck, I race on past and then it's always the case that only 1 other car in a long line also make it past, when 6-7 should be making it. I also frequently witness the slow passing fool have to slam his brakes as the truck re-enters the lane.
I don't fault any RV for not using the pullout lanes.
The "cars be damned" part would be a collision, with the RV at fault. No thanks.
And the pullouts are not long enough to keep rolling, you have to come to a stop to have a chance to pick up speed again when there's a gap, otherwise you've just rolled to the end of the pullout and now you're sitting still with no room to accelerate before pulling into traffic.
The turnouts designed for slow moving vehicles to let others pass, at least to my experience these are almost always signed far enough in advance (I'm sure there's a vehicle code mandating distance of signage) and they are at least ten or tens of car lengths long.
I think you are asking too much for any vehicle to pull out into one of those tinier kind of little turnouts for the sake of normal kind of driving/passing activity.
> The "cars be damned" part would be a collision, with the RV at fault. No thanks.
Agreed and this is why i would never use them were I driving an RV, and I don't blame others for not doing it. I'm just noting that I see the big trucks do this all the time. I'd estimate once a month I end up behind slow car panic stopping when he realizes the truck isn't having it.
Ignoring those clearly-marked, friendly, and predictable pullouts, practically everything else is a total crapshoot you really don't know what it's going to be like until you've already driven past it. With a 38-foot 31,000 lbs class A, we made it the passenger's job to call out whether a pullout was safe or not, because the driver just didn't have enough time to notice it. Often we did manage to pull out of traffic for a moment and let 3-10 cars pass, but sometimes it just wasn't feasible.
I used to live in a small tourist town, and people died on a regular basis because of RVs doing that. You could spot the local drivers because they're the ones hugging the fog line when going around a bend.
Many RVs are 8.5 feet wide. Common highway lanes are 10 feet wide. There are curvy highways like route 1 that I swear are only 9' wide. I worry more about line selection and holding my rig inside the yellows than I worry about line selection when I'm racing my motorcycle. It's challenging for me and I drive things as a sport. I'm not covering for someone who went over the yellows, that's unforgivable, but I wanted to add some context for you.
In fact, there are advisory speed signs for those curves that are accurate -- if people followed them, there would rarely be an issue. Part of the problem, I think, is that if you're driving a car, those advisory speeds are far too slow (15-20 MPH on a 50 MPH road), but if you're driving an RV or big rig, those advisory speeds are critical. I think most non-pro drivers are used to driving cars and have trained themselves to ignore those signs.
I honestly think that people should have special training to be allowed to drive RVs, or at least the larger RVs. Something like a motorcycle tag.
> Common highway lanes are 10 feet wide.
These roads are also narrower than modern ones (they are some of the earliest "highways" built in the state). When I drove an RV on them, I tended to white-knuckle it. They're rather nervous-making.
Most drivers think they're above average at minimum in their driving skill; most could use to take both a basic math course and a driver's safety class.
Many states have such rules, e.g. California & Texas.
The thing people don't realize is that speed limit advisory signs (on turns or downhills usually) are essentially mandatory for high CG vehicles - to avoid rollover risk.
To help you understand some reasons to refuse a pullout, here are the conditions that I think must be true for an RV or heavy truck to safely and practically use a pullout: (Maybe I'm missing something)
1) Vehicle is slower than the speed limit or lower than the safety speed advisory by more than 10 mph. (Yes, this is annoying for people that want to exceed the speed limit, but they can use passing lanes.)
2) Pullout must be visibly paved and clear for entry in advance of safe braking distance. (This is often a problem.)
3) The pullout must have good visibility behind it so the vehicle can safely get back up to speed from 0 after stopping. (Sometimes a problem.)
4) Traffic must be light enough such that rejoining the travel lane is feasible in less than a couple minutes. (This is often a problem.)
5) The pullout must have a safe path to return to the travel lane. (I have had to balk pullout attempts after nearing the pullout because this is not always immediately clear at a distance.)
6) Most importantly, the vehicle must not be followed either at an unsafe distance or by someone driving erratically. (I am not going to risk damage to my vehicle by braking for someone following too closely.)
edit:formatting
Ah, Washington drivers! Paying no attention at all until someone nears their space, then all of a sudden VERY attentive and territorial yet unwilling to be actually aggressive, so instead just kind of interfering.
Highway driving at its finest.
How does this make you feel?
>>Ah, Washington drivers! Paying no attention at all until someone nears their space, then all of a sudden VERY attentive and territorial yet unwilling to be actually aggressive, so instead just kind of interfering.
>>Highway driving at its finest.
>>> Every single place you have lived has the worst drivers. Except for you.
>>> How does this make you feel?
It's the darndest thing: anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac and anyone who drives slower than me is a moron. Curiouser and curiouser.
And I want the people who drive slower than me to be as far behind me as possible. That way when their terrible driving causes them to crash in a fiery explosion, I'm not anywhere near them.
But I've never had much trouble getting the people who want to drive faster than me to go in front of me by just... letting them pass. Whereas the people who drive slower than me, now those are the assholes.
In DFW, when a gentle rain starts the calming sound of raindrops is followed by police and fire truck sirens as everyone loses their mind and starts crashing into each other on the roads for no reason.
I can't think of a road or situation here in South Australia where anyone would need to be worried about either of those things to that heightened level. Yeah, take it easier when wet or foggy, or when tired, and drunk drivers exist, but not to the point of seriously warning people on a particular route.
When I lived near Santa Cruz for a year and had to commute to Silicon Valley, I got very good at driving that stretch, knowing when I could do the curves fast, and when I needed to be cautious.
But if you're not a 'regular' on that road? Your advice was well-warranted.
Only you would know, but this could be something other than what it seems like.
When I had a motorcycle, I'd tail a slow vehicle for miles in anticipation of a passing zone. When we got there, they'd all of a sudden accelerate-- which I always assumed was them fucking with me, until one day I realized I do the same thing myself when in a car.
We speed up when we perceive it is safe to do so (long stretches of straight road), similar to unconsciously letting off the gas when you notice a cop running a speed trap.
If this is what you encounter, it may be an unconscious thing, or the RV driver consciously speeding up for your convenience. If they're swerving, consider that they're tall and wind pushes them around easily.
But they could also just be dicks, sure.
There's a mountain pass I travel a few times a year where this happens.
The limit is 45 mph throughout the curves, and that's a reasonable speed, though I prefer to go a bit faster, but will inevitably get stuck behind someone going 35.
We reach a point where there's a passing lane, and the limit is 55 mph. I try to pass the person that was going 35 mph before, and suddenly they seem to think that 70 mph is a reasonable speed. I have to pass these people regardless of how fast they want to go when there's a passing lane, because otherwise, I'll get stuck behind them once the passing lane ends and they decide to drop back down to 10 under the limit.
Luckily, these days, I have a car that can easily pass 98% of the other cars on the road, and the remaining 2% are already going at speed.
Be careful; getting locked into "have to" can make you do dangerous things.
be aware of the other people on the road and show some courtesy? before speeding up check and see if there are people behind you and let them pass before coming up to speed.
it's really not that hard
for clarity, a safe driver would maintain a lower speed to allow the car line to pass.
> a safe driver would maintain a lower speed to allow the car line to pass.
They can totally pass, I'm just going the speed limit. Generally the passing lane is open for a couple of miles going up, they should have time to pass.
(this only applies to mountain highway driving anyways, where I'm at, the passing lanes are designed for trucks who can't go very fast up the hills, it isn't for idiots who want to go 85 around 35 MPH curves)
its your own fault if you choose to be a selfish unsafe & uncourteous driver who only cares about themself
Often they are a short paved lane meant for slow vehicles to pull off onto to allow slower traffic to pass, but often on mountain roads, it's a gravel off-road area that serves the same purpose. But pulling into one can be a bumpy ride, and the gravel service means it's hard to accelerate quickly until you get fully back on the road so you need to be sure you have a lot of clear space behind you (which can be hard to ensure on twisty mountain roads).
As I understand English, that phrase literally means you're using that lane to overtake someone else, when in fact the opposite is occurring.
I think they are more like what we'd refer to as truck stops - an area off the road where you can pull over to stop.
I'd note this quote:
> Second, often times (in the USA at least), these pull-outs have rough terrain going in an and out of them. There will be a little bump or uneven ground that most vehicles wouldn't mind hitting every now and then, but in my rig, that causes the whole thing to sway back and forth ...
> Pulling into the pull-out, coming to a complete stop, waiting for everyone to pass..
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36410014
These aren't things that happen with overtaking lanes.
What they're talking about are turnout lanes which are a lane beside the road with no median/barrier and you're expected to slow down or maybe stop very briefly, purely to let faster traffic through. There are some up on the road past Pichi Richi Park to Quorn if you ever drive through the Southern Flinders, but they're not overly common in SA.
I've seen them formally in northern USA (Idaho going into Washington state, maybe) where they are risky and unclear, and I've seen informal ones on roads east of the Sierra Nevada which are like your quote - rough, unpredictable poorly laid asphalt or gravel.
An RV is 20-30+ feet long. Thirty feet isn't enough time to slow and stop at speed. Let alone build up speed and reenter the main route. Even the one in your picture (much longer than 30') is an example of one that is risky for an RVer to use. People would use that to stop and take a photo or take their kid to the toilet, but proper ones are closer to an actual lane as in, same surface as the road, and longer. And no one would stop on them other than for 10 seconds to let traffic pass. Here's one on the southern side of Flinders Ranges Way here in South Australia (where I assume @NL still lives):
https://www.google.com.au/maps/search/quorn/@-32.4561221,137...
Scotland has tons of these in rural areas, where the roads are literal single-track (only one lane wide). Used for on-coming traffic instead passing. It works fine, because the speeds are low and people are used it.
Driving a huge RV I have trouble seeing and pulling off at my destination, let alone a fall-off-the-road-into-dirt pullout that comes up quickly around a turn.
Gotta disagree here. Almost always when I get stuck behind something going 20 under, whether it's an RV or a Corolla, the driver of that vehicle blows past every available pullout and accelerates to 30+ over when a passing lane appears. Drivers are just raging assholes, no matter what they're driving.
I've been behind plenty of RVs who don't drive as fast as I want to. But that's what happens on a public road. (These RVs still drive at a reasonable speed, just not as fast as I want to. IE 48mph in a 50 when I want to drive 55.)
The big problem is obvious drivers, who often are in passenger cars. I've been stuck behind far more oblivious drivers than RVs. These drivers do 20 in a 50, and ignore the long line of cars behind them.
Now, maybe it's just WA state, but if we hit the road for an extended period I'd be reserving spots ahead of time even at places far less popular than, say, Yellowstone.
I imagine it'll die off because as you point out, folks will find out that RVs always need something, and in a lot of ways are kind of a pain-in-the-ass. But, man, thought it would have happened by now.
Cutting the hide off of another animal to survive in an environment might mean it’s not your environment.
Most Canadians find 27C "omg it is hot out even wearing shorts is uncomfortable".
68F is warm.
Where I live 68F is July highs.
I often sleep at 60F with a very thin cotton sheet.
Why do you erroneously think you would die? Your body can easily heat you the same when asleep, as awake.
You must be from a place that gets hot.
You know many Canadians wear shorts at 50F, right?
> You know many Canadians wear shorts at 50F, right?
Shorts are clothing FFS! “Slightly more of my leg is exposed while I’m awake” is not the same as being able to sleep naked without shelter.
Humans came from warm clients in Africa. Living in the north depends on critical technological advancements that quickly puts it outside of “”nature (fire, clothing, construction).
> You must be from a place that gets hot.
Not at all, I grew up in miserably cold environments (high mountains in Wyoming). When you grow up with it you become blind to all of the basic technologies your life completely depends on.
You literally made a ridiculous starenent, changing things after the fact doesn't make you right, or it true.
This is one of those adventures where brave blurs into crazy
Now they can be booked months in advance when you've no sense of how available you'll be or what the weather will be like.
For Michigan's booking system, people also game it by booking long stays that finish on the dates want (thus getting around the "within 6 months" booking window) and then cancelling down to the dates they want for a paltry cancellation fee, given how in demand they are.
A white van can go and park anywhere a delivery truck can go, whereas RVs may get unwanted attention.
Not sure there is a fair approach beyond a lottery. Parks could embrace demand, and auction the sites off, but that is trading one bias for another.
Added costs/fees are somewhat inevitable. I spent $25 for two small bundles of firewood on my last camping trip. Everyone’s got to make a buck somehow.
I see Campnab as a convenience. Anyone can refresh the booking system manually, but doing so is time consuming. Some folks are happy to pay for that convenience.
Campsite availability is largely a supply and demand problem concentrated around busy centers and amplified during certain times. Drive a little further and go on the weekdays and it isn’t as much of an issue.
Perhaps lotteries would help. Some permits have been switched to this approach. I’m not sure how practical they are to implement across the board, though.
Personally, I don’t think any solution will actually solve this problem. That said, a lot of campsites do sit unused when folks fail to cancel. Reminders a week in advance of a trip could help with this. Some areas also have policies that discourage no-shows.
Used to be friends with Nina back in the day and recently sold our full-timing Airstream. https://www.wheelingit.us/2013/04/26/campsite-lottery-red-ro...
Japan also has the Hilux and the Navara, both turbo diesels similar to a sprinter or similar small diesel van.
I hadn't thought about it at first but I guess those two locations would be right hand driv
I wish the American market was more conducive to Japanese diesel vehicles.
Deboss garage is a Canadian mechanic on YouTube and he mentions he went to South Africa to do some work and was expecting there’d be many Hilux but ended up just working on fords (and was disappoint)
To get much beyond the 1 to 1.5k lbs PAYLOAD capacity, you need to move into a full size truck, ideally an F-250 or equivalent. People putting campers in the back of Tacomas and the like are playing with fire.
EDIT: And yes, the insurance company will weigh your equipment after an accident.
1. Just one engine to take care of. If you have a motor home, you’re towing a car too. So that’s two sets of drivetrains with all of the maintenance and expense that goes with it.
2. Easy to replace the drive part. If my truck dies I can just get another truck. The trailer lives on. Whole lot easier than dealing with what happens when an RV dies.
3. More maneuverable (though also harder to learn to tow if you’re not already used to it) because it pivots at the point where it connects to the vehicle.
4. Much cheaper in the long run. A diesel 3/4 or full ton truck barely depreciates at all in absolute dollars even in normal times. RVs can’t say that at all. If you buy a camper and a pickup you can probably sell them in five years for most of what you put into them.
5th wheel trailers help with this (so I've been told by family members that have them).
Fifth wheels can seem scary to people who are not familiar with them, but the benefits are numerous if you can overcome that fear.
I use a gooseneck adapter on my RV since my farm trailer uses that and it's a bit more difficult to hitch up but you get used to it quickly.
Before COVID used fifth-wheels were very cheap -- my current one is a 2016 model I bought used for $17k in 2019. Things are a bit more expensive now but I figure the used market will probably go back to normal by next year.
This problem went away with bumper and tailgate cameras.
They do however TOW quite a bit better than a travel trailer as far as comfort. Going from a 28ft TT to a 40ft Toy Hauler yielded a lot better towing/reduction in driver fatigue over long trips (also went from a half-ton truck to 1-ton, so some differences just there as well).
(Sidenote for anyone wanting to argue the usefulness of 5th wheels: I'm not my language designated responsible for sayings and common phrasings. Also: 5th wheels tend to be the emergency spare wheels - which obviously do have a use.)
That's assuming that you actually want or need a truck (or other tow vehicle large enough to pull your trailer). I went with a motorhome (but don't pull a car) because my other care is a small EV, and I don't really have a use for a truck or other large vehicle.
A truck and trailer is nearly always less expensive re: total cost of ownership than a similar motorized setup. It would have cost about the same to buy a truck and trailer than a motor home, and they depreciate far less, and maintenance costs for less.
Your other car doesn't have anything to do with the cost savings. The cost savings exist before even assuming you get some other use or value out of the truck other than a tow vehicle
1. You can boondock much more discretely. I can move quietly from the driver seat into the sleeping area without letting the neighborhood know anyone is there at all. Also safer in that if someone is bothering me, I can also just drive away.
2. Much faster to setup. I usually just hop out of my rv, connect the power cord and back in. Press a button for leveling out. When you have a trailer and you need to go somewhere, it probably involves disconnecting the hitch which is a ton of work. It’s possible to leave it connected but the length of both the trailer and car is usually too long for a campsite
3. Slightly related to that last one but length. My RV is 24 feet, I can just pull straight into most driveways, press a button and I’m setup. Not a fan of backing trailers into steep or across uneven driveways.
4. Incredibly easy to drive. As other people are discussing letting folks overtake you, it just wasn’t as necessary because you can drive a short rv like a car. Miss a gas station? Just hit that uturn at the signal and go back. Good luck with a trailer or even more fun in a 5th wheel
5. Cross wind. I haven’t driven much with a trailer but in the desert, the cross winds were sorta scary while driving an RV. I have to imagine this is worse with a trailer.
6. Having that back living space easy to reach. Thirsty on that 6 hour drive? Just send a passenger back to the fridge to grab a cold drink or food from the pantry
7. Storage. This can go two ways but I only have a driveway for two cars. My RV fits in one spot. If I had a trailer, I would have to park the truck separately which wouldn’t leave room for another car off the street
8. Battery recharging. When the RV is running, the deep cycle batteries charge. I can let the car idle instead of running the connected generator. There is also a button you can hold down and it uses the deep cycle batteries start the car engine in case the car battery dies. The whole system is integrated so you theoretically can’t have a dead battery on both the engine portion or the rear living space portion
9. Ac, I have had issues with my rear AC, I can start the car and run the AC from the front vents to keep the back area livable
Just one nit pick, #8 is common and easy to setup with trailers as well. Our truck charges our rv batteries
Now you're doing your grocery shopping, sightseeing, and trailhead parking with a dualie pickup truck.
And when one engine breaks, you are stuck...
When you look at the total cost of ownership, cost of maintenance, depreciation, and the relative comfort of driving a new nice diesel truck vs a box van it's a no Brainer. When we're too old amd weak to disconnect the trailer from the truck we'll get a motorized rv, until then we'll stick with our truck and trailer.
Guess what else gets horrible mileage when you hook a trailer to it? I'll put our 26' Sprinter class C's 15mpg up against anything pulling something larger than a pod trailer. And after I did some much-needed suspension upgrades, the thing drives like a car. Best of all, I don't have to pull a trailer. We use ours a fair amount because all we do is toss food in the fridge, turn the key and go.
A lot of the reason I see for pulling a car (often referred to as a "toad". "towed", get it?), is so one doesn't have to roll everything up just to go see the sights.
>A lot of the reason I see for pulling a car (often referred to as a "toad". "towed", get it?), is so one doesn't have to roll everything up just to go see the sights.
(And if you have a Sprinter-based Class C: Sumo Springs front and rear, Fox rear shocks with more rebound damping, and if I had to do it over I'd skip the larger sway bar.)
And both can be supplemented by auxiliary transportation (bikes, motorbikes, small car).
I've never had success with a ride service outside of a city, and outside of cities is where RV sites that people are interested in tend to be located.
We fulltimed in western US, and I made it a point to minimize RV parks & paid camping, to see get more out into nature. I honestly don't even know what it would be like to just go from RV park to RV park.
One thing I thought about is that if I want to go someplace farther than 100 miles, I could just drop the trailer in a parking lot, recharge the truck at a nearby DCFC, then re-hook and be on my way. I've done this on occasion to refuel an ICE tow vehicle at a too-small gas station, and I don't see why it wouldn't work with a lightning.
But there are benefits as well - it’s way more comfortable for passengers, and it’s easier to setup on arrival.
For travel trailer it’s harder to park (if you need to back in into tight spot) and level, and then you need to disconnect the vehicle (if you need it to drive around). And then you need to reconnect before leaving. It becomes way easier and faster with experience.
When I took the plunge I bought a van (Ford Transit with the high roof) and converted it to an RV myself. The van is light(ish) and powerful enough. We fly up mountains and can park in a normal parking lot space.
There are some times where it's annoying to break camp to go to some activity but it's much less annoying than towing a car full time, not being able to back up, etc.
Here's what my list would be: (full time for 7 years, now building a house so I don't need full time RVing ever again).
1. RV parks are full, they converted almost all the nightly sites to monthlys to guarantee revenue. RV Parks are the new mobile home park but with monthly RVers who got wind of the "Gone with the Wynns" blog and cheaper cost of living.
2. RV Park nightly rates have literally gone from $35 a night to $70 a night during the 2020s -> 2023s. A lot of the time you're the one that showed up paying $70 per day and all the loud blubs next door are paying $10 per night at the monthly rate.
3. Free camping areas are getting shut down after sites like "campendium" have advertised them to everyone. Most of the problems are related to illegal gray and black tank dumping on public lands.
4. Quartzsite is an absolute shit-show now, it's still probably worth going, but it's crowded. I wouldn't be surprised if they shut down the free areas in the next few years over the same gray/black tank issues.
5. Internet problems are 1000% solved with Starlink now.
6. Solar does not power the A/C. To power the A/C you need 10+ residential solar panels and a $2000 inverter on a 48 volt system. There are ways to have a 48 volt battery and down-regulate to 12v for the rest of your RV. People that run A/C off solar have "special ways" to have that many residential panels, typically involving fold outs and trailers.
7. Gas prices have skyrocketed in CA so it's not worth going anywhere near the state - let alone find a park that's cheap.
RV Progression
Cedar Creek 5th Wheel (2 years) -> Arctic Fox TC 1150 (5 years) -> Alliance Paradigm (1 year) -> building house
I have not found this to be true. I run a Cruise N Comfort 12v AC and it works great (most it uses is about 60amps at 12v which I run off my solar panels). See my post here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36408382
You can easily run standard old-school RV rooftop A/C for hours with good 12 V LiFePOs and a pretty bog-standard 3 kW inverter.
Trying to charge those batteries up with ~1000 W solar is gonna take a looong time though.
If you really understand what living in a RV or a van really involves, you quickly realize several things:
* If you plan a long journey, it's still a lot of time spent on the road, and gas money. So it's not about just living in the wild, it's just driving and sleeping, which is not that great, and it's not what people mean when they mean to live in a van. It's a home that can move, but it's not meant to travel.
* It's better to keep a real home, use a station wagon to sleep in it or carry stuff, a bicycle, a tent etc, and not go too far from your home and still enjoy the wilderness, and do this for several months and still enjoy being in the wild without using a RV or van. A station wagon is not the full luxury, but it's still pretty nice.
The trend is on vans which are smaller RVs, but I really thing using a station wagon is largely enough.
I cannot stress enough how absurdly expensive it is to keep an RV moving on the road. They are built in by far the least weight efficient manner imaginable and consume gas or diesel as if prices hadn’t changed since 1986. It is wild how little manufacturers have spent on R&D to come up with more weight efficient solutions.
It’s a garbage industry full of garbage vendors selling unremarkable trash, YoY.
RV's are even less-efficient / less effective tiny houses.
Put another way: the constraints imposed by adding mobility to an otherwise static design are significant, and the inherent compromises large.
a) the majority of RVs are designed to be driven with a standard car license, so fully loaded must weigh less than 3500kg
b) The vans that are used as base of RVs all run on diesel, and have a fuel consumption of around 8l/100km or 30mpg. Add around 20% for a Class B RV.
The definition is that class C is constructed on a cutaway chassis, constructing new "RV walls" at the RV factory, and class B uses the original "vehicle walls".
A class B will get generally better fuel economy than a class C, because it's more aerodynamic, narrower and not as tall. Of course, a class B will have less interior room.
It’s absurd but no less absurd than a similarly priced boat that might get 20-30 hours if use a season. Plenty of other neighbors have those.
I like to describe my Toyota Sienna as a "metal tent on wheels". It's got a full mattress, but it's no house.
* I spent most of a year on the road, circled the U.S., about 18k miles in all (and averaging almost 17mpg). Sure, it's a lot of miles, but some people do that commuting. The experience was in no way "just driving and sleeping" in fact the driving part was not particularly unpleasant (amazing views, music, books on tape, conversation, photo stops) but was a very minor part of the overall experience.
* With a compact (25') class C, I had a comfortable queen sized bed, 2 TVs couch, heat, A/C, 2 sinks, stove, microwave, fridge, flush toilet, closet, large dinette (seats 6), and a great hot shower every morning. A slide out made it very roomy when parked. A huge awning made for comfortable outdoor living on sunny days. I've done the station wagon thing, and it can be great for a while - but for a year on the road? NFW.
There's no bathroom, kitchen, or shower in your station wagon.
... it's quite possible to carry bathing (not necessarily shower), cooking, and at least modest toilet facilities (a bottle and/or bucket in a pinch). In many places these aren't entirely necessary. Even many van-lifers forego full facilities as these impinge highly on available space, weight budgets, and flexibility.
The designs that seem most appropriate to me tend to make flexible use of space. E.g., a countertop which may conceal a composting or cassette toilet, which itself can be pulled out and a curtain up to provide a shower or sponge-bathing space.
Similarly, cooktops which can be used either inside or outside the vehicle. I can only imaging that cooking smells, grease, and the like can easily permeate everything if used extensively. In most cases ventilation requirements would mean that you'd want to have doors / windows open anyway, and an outside kitchen gives far more working and maneuvering space.
I'm glad people are happy with 'em, but the more I learn about that lifestyle the more I love my small pickup truck and hammock.
I wish I would have known how stressful it can be. For me, It feels like there is always a drag of stress - maybe a 30% overhead of stress. If you suddenly don't have hot water, it is on you to fix it because when you are "living" in it for that period, someone won't be able to come to help you repair it for several weeks. You can't even throw money at it, they just are too busy and can't come out.
Driving can be stressful too. You get experienced to it after a while but driving at night down a two-lane highway with diesel trucks behind you, in front of you (another lane), and directly to your left where the vortex pulls you in all while you're trying to keep it in the lane can be stressful. Pulling into a truck stop to fuel can be stressful.
I like to stick to around < 300 miles per day. I prefer to arrive before it's dark. This means a 12-hour drive I would make in my car can end up taking 2-3 days in the RV. I don't mind taking the time now. I relax, unplug and enjoy it. It now relaxes me. I would rather it take time than to worry about driving at night or pulling into a spot at night.
The last few times we went we had two older dogs. One was having seizures. We didn't know it yet but she had kidney failure and had quit eating as much. We didn't notice her feeding habits at home since the other dog was a jerk, eating her portions without us knowing. The trip was fortunate because we got to see everything up close and in person. I have a slight deficiency in object permanence and for them to be right there in my face, we were able to see it. The other dog -- nicknamed Pigbert now -- was having serious issues with his arthritis. He would randomly screech due to pain. A steroid for two weeks solved it quickly.
If you combine those things with the 30% constant drag of stress it can be very unpleasant. No hot water, caring for dogs in crisis, and stressful drives all lead to something that is quite unmanageable.
My advice is to just be aware of managing stressors and ensuring you have as few as possible on travel days. My other advice is - if it sounds like it is for you - DO IT. I have backpacked Europe and traveled to very nice resorts. None of them top the amazing experiences I have had on the road. I won't personally live in that small of a space full-time or part-time but I admire those that do it.
And always remember that if it gets too bad for a while there's no shame in stopping at a hotel for a night or two.
I see myself disassembling the toilet.
Campers, I actually agree with you and that's as someone on his second purchase. But, my agreement comes in the form that I believe everyone should baby step their way in. Tent camp at an improved campground (meaning, at least a toilet onsite. Plumbing very optional and probably not happening). If your crew enjoy it, then it makes sense to step up but I'd still go small. Small towable/travel trailer. By that point, you'll know what you want/need.
Get good internet. I found Verizon to be the best for cellular and this was before Starlink Mobile was available. Get a directional cellular antenna and mount (not a repeater/amplifier) and learn how to point the antenna at towers if you plan to do any “boondocking” out in the west of the US. Otherwise, everywhere else these days likely has internet.
Compost Toilet is a win in my book. Very little maintenance and no nasty tanks to deal with. But, it’s not for everyone.
Decide if you need showers in your wheeled home or not. That drives the cost of your rig significantly. Most RVs are absolute trash for quality south of $50k.
"South" to mean down or below, and likewise for north, drives me up a wall. If you are standing at the south pole, north is down. There's also no concept of up/down in space, and so northern hemisphere normalcy is false. To Australians, North America is below!
Snide comment aside, it's obviously in reference to standard map orientation. Maps had to be oriented somehow, unless you're advocating for the chaos of arbitrary individual map orientations.
It sounds like the pandemic generated such a crush of orders that now even more expensive ones are slapped together at the factory.
Mercedes Streeter at The Autopian (spiritual heir to Jalopnik) has been looking at her parents’ new RV.
https://www.theautopian.com/my-familys-62800-camper-is-junk-...
This vid is a great illustration of both how easy it is to get into an accident, and how much damage even a glancing blow does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuRtNajq-Yo
Edit: I finally clicked through the autopian link from up thread and it’s reminding me there’s a guy I watch sometimes who does conversion vans. All of his stuff is built around those extruded aluminum rails. He hasn’t figured out how to make use of those last few cubic feet yet but he seems to do a good job and they’re fairly sturdy. Last I watched he was perfecting his showers.
I now wonder what it would look like if he converted buses instead of shop vans. You have a superstructure that might actually survive a hit, they’re already set up for AC units, you “just” need to build repeatable interiors. But you need much more shop space, time, and capital to do something of that sort.
https://www.theautopian.com/this-1948-gm-old-look-transit-bu...
https://www.theautopian.com/how-a-couple-turned-a-gillig-tra...
Pretty sure it was this guy.
Those are some very complicated trailers and he’s charging the same or less than simpler ones.
I nearly felt allergic while reading about the endless quality control issues. Piecework only "works" when people easily can and do verify the product delivered. A combination of customers and shareholders are getting boned by workers, their managers, and the dealerships here. Incentives matter.
There, edited it for you for accuracy. :-) Seriously, our Thor retailed for $100K in 2018, and I've been through that entire vehicle while installing solar/inverter/battery. As I've told my spouse, "there isn't a straight screw in that whole interior". I've probably pulled a bathroom garbage container worth of crap out of the walls (leftover trimmings and the like). Yeah, didn't think anyone would look in there, eh? :-)
I found Visible to be fast enough at 5mbps for most things. I hooked up a Wifi router to serve as a client for those cases where I wasn't tethering.
I think it is tougher when you try to work a remote job, since you basically do everything in the same small space. Eat cook work sleep read etc all in the same x square feet.
You can get a pretty decent truck/camper combo for under $100k.
Give it a few months before you start accessorising, we've kept it to a couple of ebikes, camp chairs+table, and a paddleboard. Don't bother with Starlink unless you need to be online 24/7, and if you do get it, consider it only as a supplimentary to a good rugged dual-sim 4G modem.
Back home (NZ) we were in a almost-new Sprinter, which was great on fuel, but less fun once you wanted to go off-road or abuse it in any way. Our 2WD Ford goes places people don't dare bring their shiny new 4x4s.
I wouldn't go over 22' long, especially in Mexico and the fun parts of Canada, otherwise you'll just be touring RV parks with all the other people towing F150s and jetskis and bouncy castles.
For internet, we use a combo of Verizon (via a Wineguard antennae on our roof) and Starlink (the not-mounted, mobile version) and it's worked wonderfully. Verizon works great near cities. Starlink works great in more remote settings as long as there aren't trees, but the extra long starlink cable makes it pretty easy to find spots where I can connect.
We largely moochdock (staying in family/friends driveways), but when we travel we will alternate spending a week or two in remote parks, then parks nearer a city, etc. so that we get a good combo of civilization and nature. Parks near cities normally run us around $40 per night, and more remote places are largely either free or around $20 per night. There are a surprising number of random costs that have popped up over time, and our budget typically is cheaper than when we owned/rented different houses, but not by that much.
My wife and I can comfortably make it about 7 days without any hookups before we need to go to a park. We have solar + a gas generator, so we never have issues with electricity. It's usually either running out of fresh water or filling our black tank that will limit our remote stays.
There are high highs and low lows with RVing. Highs include being able to work comfortably from literal caves and beaches with nobody in sight (Red Rock Park in CA is gorgeous and nobody goes there, as an example). Lows include being stuck in a place we didn't like for two months after we needed unexpected window/body repairs and couldn't drive. Having your house be your mode of transportation can be extremely limiting. We don't tow a car or have the tow capacity to in our current RV, but I wish we did.
My biggest piece of advice is to meet new people and to see old friends/family as much as possible. Hot tubs and hiking are my go tos for meeting new people, and I've made some incredible friends doing each. But it's different than before I was nomadic. I meet people, and two days later we're hiking together, and three weeks later we're hiking in Hawaii together staying in the same AirBnb, and then one of us goes to the midwest and the other to California and we don't see each other for months/years. It's fast paced and fun, but it can also do a number on your mental health if you need consistency in your life. A therapist helps me, as do frequent trips to see family/friends, as does having friends at my place of work that I chat with remotely, but coordinating in-person meeting can be hard when many of my nomad friends could be in any of 48 states most of the time.
I love my RV, and choose to live in it even when I have other options available (like if we're at a cabin, hotel, etc.). If you can make an RV your happy place, it can be a lot of fun touring the world.
I travel for months at a time but have a "real" property to land at, so not completely nomadic. YMMV especially if full-time.
> share their general setup
I own a mid-sized SUV that gets 25-30 MPH. Think RAV4/CRV/Forester/Rogue/etc -- it's all the same just buy whatever you can get a good deal on (definitely RAV4 hybrid if you plan on lots of city driving; otherwise financially it's a wash until you get to $5/gal or so).
- bed platform in the back.
- Passenger seat is converted into a desk.
- onboard storage under the bed, in the back foot wells, and a battery in the spare tire well.
- outboard storage (including spare tire and water) on the roof rack. Solar panels over that stuff. Ran a cable from the panels to the battery.
- I have a little tent setup on the side which is nice when you have a place to land and want to... stand up.
> monthly costs
When on the road, I make due on about $500/mo and live quite luxuriously. I eat out and drink, even. Not counting the cost of the car or health insurance.
That number is going up over time due more to lifestyle creep than inflation. I try to keep my monthly expenses below one twelfth of 4% of 30% of my liquid post-tax assets.
> any tips/tricks/advice?
People spend stupid amounts of money to avoid renting and dependency on others.
Don't buy a bunch of shit. Instead, invest and rent!
Case-in-point: showers. You can blow $50K extra to have a setup that gives you indoor showers. Or, you can buy notes and have 50000*.05/12 = $200/mo = at least a few showers per week AND you get to keep the principal!!! (and that's just the winter months -- for the cost of one hour/month of cold water showering for 9 months you get an extra $1800/yr to reinvest!)
If you are young and single, anything bigger than Transit Connect is unnecessary. Honestly, I've seen people live in priuses for years at time quite comfortably. As that number as gone up, so too have the number of lobsters/cocktails/burgers/dates.
Try not to work from the car. A transit connect or RV beats an SUV you want to work from the car, but I promise you would prefer to work from a coffee shop or by following the weather and working outside as much as possible. You'll end up avoiding work days in the rig even if you have the space, so why blow stupid amounts of money? You live out of a car; I promise you won't want to also work out of a car.
Got any pics of your rig?
I've been slowly building out a 10-foot cargo trailer similar to this: https://www.trailersplus.com/Nevada/Las_Vegas/6-Wide-Cargo-T...
I got laid off at the start of Covid, but I had enough money saved up that I wasn't in a hurry to get a new job. I looked at lots of manufactured trailers and considered vans as well.
Vans are great because you always have everything with you, but that also means you always have everything with you. Trailers are great because you can drop them and just have a normal car, but then you have to find somewhere to drop them. In the end, I went with a trailer because they're a lot cheaper and I didn't want to go cutting holes in van.
I'd initially planned on getting a manufactured trailer, but all the ones I looked at didn't seem worth the money. The real deal breaker for me was I wanted to do a lot of camping near ski areas and cheaper trailers (sub-$50k) all have plumbing outside the insulated area. I didn't really want to spend $30-50k and then not be able to use the plumbing.
Driving back from an RV dealership, I saw someone pulling a U-Haul and that got me wondering. Sure enough, there's tons of content on youtube of people building out cargo trailers. I actually started by renting a U-Haul for a week and camping out of it in the middle of winter. It wasn't great, but it worked.
At this point, I'm pretty happy with the choice I made, but it's been a ton of work and lots of uncertainty. It's a lot less stressful cutting a hole in a $5k trailer vs a $20-70k van, but it's still pretty stressful. I basically knew nothing about building when I started out. You can just start camping in a cargo trailer right away and it's still better than a tent ... or a teardrop trailer imo.
I've come up with lots of tricks along the way and at some point I'll blog about them. I still have a million ideas I want to try building too though.
I have some pics and stories on my photoblog (another thing I'm working on): https://photoblog.mallocs.net/
https://thedogisdriving.com/six-months/
Internet
1. Starlink internet [50GB/mo priority data, unlimited non-priority] - $250 monthly / $2000+ for flat mount hardware. I had/have the less-expensive RV/home dish (non-mobile) before the mobile flat mount high performance dish came out. I can quickly attach it to the Harbor Freight flag pole and hoist it above most tree canopy if needed.
2. T-mobile hotspot [50ish GB/mo] - Roughly $55 monthly. Works great in cities with 5G.
3. Verizon mobile router (Peplink) [300GB/mo] - $150 monthly for the data plan from: https://mobilemusthave.com/
The reason I have all these is because I need redundant connections to do my job. It's not acceptable to not have internet one day. Also I use MultipathTCP to bond all my connections together so my Zoom calls never drop (which used to be a problem with Starlink, but less so now these days).
Fuel Costs
This is my greatest expense. I have a very heavy Sprinter van that I built out myself. I get about 14 MPG diesel. It really depends what State you are in on what the costs are and how much you travel. The general consensus between all the people I've met on the road (working full time) is that they put about 35k miles on their vehicle per year.
Campgrounds
Really only pay for for these when on the East Coast since there isn't as much BLM or USFS land.
Power
I have 600 amp hours of batteries with about 800 watts of solar on my roof, 1320 watts of portable panels that I can set up when I need to (mostly when I want to run the air conditioner 24 hours a day). I also have a 3360 watt auxiliary alternator that will charge the batteries real fast. The truth is I run a ton of computer equipment and never really worry about power.
This lifestyle has been amazing. I used to feel stuck being an engineer behind my desk all day. Now when I get tired of a town I can simply move onto the next one. There's also some amazing groups out there and I've actually made loads of friends across the country doing this same lifestyle so we'll often meet up in places. For example, Trent (who arguabily started the "Van Life Gamers" movement) has a discord full of people that live this lifestyle https://discord.gg/d4xsZEVH.
I would also say having a Sprinter Van has been so much better than an RV because it's much easier to go places with the van than a huge RV. I can park at a trail head for example in a normal parking spot.
Can you please share more about this? I've been curious to build a router with redundant internet providers ever since I noticed certain PCEngines boards supported LTE modem modules. [0]]
I assume you're using Linux; do you wire all your modems via Ethernet and manage MultipathTCP all in your router? Any hardware offloading you're aware of/recommend?
And I run Proxmox with OpenWrt as my router inside on a Odyssey Blue https://www.seeedstudio.com/Odyssey-Blue-J4125-128GB-p-4921..... I specially chose all these because they run on 12 volt so I don't need my inverter to power them.
I have two managed switches --one is for PoE to power all my security cameras and wireless APs in the van.
The reason I use OpenWrt and the managed switches is that it's super simple to set up VLANs. Devices such as the Starlink aren't super nice when it comes to being able to configure network settings (maybe that's changed IDK). So the ports on the switches do VLAN tagging and I'm able to segregate all the network traffic including the multiple WANs into one trunk line going into the router device (the one running Proxmox with OpenWrt).
Interesting that you configured MultipathTCP. It has been on my to-do list since forever. I use "whatever WiFi we can latch onto" + T-Mobile hot spot device + impromptu cellphone hot spot as needed which goes through a LinkSys running OpenWRT and then on into a UDM Pro. Whenever the internet "goes out" I would just manually shunt to another connection. Think I need to prioritize the investigation of Multipath. Have never run out of data, but I am not full-time like you.
Batteries & solar - can never have enough. Am contemplating adding more, even if some of them sit in shadow for part of the day due to the AC unit.
* Every device and endpoint that it's used on needs to support it. My PCs, mobile devices, router, etc. all need to have it enabled and configured. This makes me question if every other layer 4 router in-between you and the endpoint also need to support it. * Endpoints that you're connecting to need to support it. It doesn't seem to be widely deployed. https://mptcp.io/ * OpenWRT's implementation doesn't seem well supported and the kernel that's needed for it is really old. * In your Zoom example, they'd need to support it server side (I don't see anything public stating that they do, but a packet capture would verify.) Also, a lot of that sort of real time traffic is UDP or QUIC (I don't know if Zoom is.)
Our T4 on the other hand can fit in everywhere, we often stay in Sweden where regular RVs are forbidden, but car-sized is allowed. It fits 2x 200x80 cm standard matrasses behind the backseats, enough for 2 adults and kid. We even packed 2 Windsurfboards _inside_ the car.
I'd prefer the smaller size of a van to get to climbing crags even if that means losing out on shower opportunities although showering would be nice. Most skiing/snowboarding destinations I've been to do not seem to have dress rooms so I guess if push to shove one can always self-clean using snow brr
You can open the doors every day for some natural ventilation or install active ventilation that uses fans to pull outside air in and push the stale air out. The latter is probably preferable in winter, although it all depends on what you're able to tolerate I guess.
As for rust, I haven't experienced any significant amounts of undercarriage or panel rust on any of my 20+ year old vehicles in Western Europe, but we don't get as much snow (and salted roadways as a consequence) as Scandinavia does. You can look into undercarriage coatings for this though.
As for showering, we never did in the winter because external grey tanks freeze. We did have a showerpan embedded flush in the floor so it didn't take up any space normally day to day. We would just have to set up shower curtains around it before we did. I actually showered more outside of the van for that reason. Mostly we would just clean ourselves with hot towels for a few days before we had to wash our hair.
I have a diesel heater. It's hooked up to a heat exchanger with my engine coolant loop, runs to my hot water heater, also to the forced air fan, and also throughout the entire floor. I laid pex down in the floor so I have floors that I can get up to 80 degrees F. I rarely use the forced air as the diesel heater barely sips fuel and keeps the floors nice and toasty. The advantage of the heated floors in van is that it's a thicker radiant heat, so it heats the cabinets and the walls. Then when you open the door it doesn't let all the heat out.
If you are the kind of person to set off on a drive without having even picked a destination like me, then it's a good idea to use the weather to decide which direction to drive. A few hours drive north might have beautiful clear skies, while a few hours south will be a thunderstorm. If you don't care where you end up, you might as well have nice weather while you do it.
Road trip weather apps are out there these days. You can check your drive forecast ahead of time! Avoid the bad weather! Get departure time recommendations!
https://www.weatherthetrip.com/download iOS and Android
Mostly agree with this list though:
1. Size: 35ft should be your absolute limit. There are a lot of reasons for this that you'll discover as you get into it.
2. Hard mounted satellite: This was my favorite feature, but we got a dish that would keep the signal when you were driving. I took a trip from Florida to South Carolina on a Saturday in the fall. We had College Gameday on when we left and didn't miss a beat for most of the day. For me, this makes the drive a lot more enjoyable. Nothing better than getting up to make a sandwich while the game is on while stuck in a traffic jam.
3. Never tried the camping clubs, but they didn't seem worth it.
4. This makes sense, but wasn't anything we ever had an issue with.
5. Completely agree.
6. Also true. We used Dish Network on a month-to-month
7. Taking your time is pretty much the point. Enjoy the drive. Stop and see interesting things. We started actively looking for random billboard activities to chase down. Visited the Luray Caverns, Hershey Park and almost chased down the bigfoot museum but it was a little too far off the route.
8. Totally correct. You don't need a lot, but it will still feel good to be prepared. Like anything, it's a learning experience.
9. I can see this, but YMMV.
10. Costs are certainly interesting. We had 2 different RVs over 4 years. We started out with a 20 year old rig that we got cheaper than a used car and fixed it up. It wasn't perfect but we loved it. Didn't have much fancy stuff on it.
Then we upgraded to something that was about 7 years old with a lot more bells, whistles and computers. It was much nicer but was in the shop constantly because something was always broken. In retrospect, you don't need half the fancy systems on these things. Push button shades, automatic leveling systems (it's not that hard to level).
Demand went up so much that we sold both for more than we paid for them initially, except for our maintenance costs. The biggest thing is winterizing. If a sudden cold snap happens before you've winterized, you're going to be in for some bills.
We still miss the RV life, but half the fun for us we just deciding at the last minute that we'd go somewhere that weekend. As it got more popular, all of the places we'd try to go were booked up 6 months in advance. We had some great family vacations and it was a lot of fun for sporting events. Clemson never lost a game that we came to in the RV (including the 2016 championship), so I like to think we were good luck. Disney's Fort Wilderness is by far the best RV stop that we found on the east coast.
An older model 38ft Class A diesel pusher with low mileage that has no slides. These were specific choices. If I did it over, it'd be a 32ft-er instead. No slides. Slides can fail. And the interior design is often made purposefully cramped until you deploy the slides. My RV is basically an open plan office & kitchen with tile & wood flooring throughout. Though I am in the process of ripping out the carpet in the bedroom because - it is time. Not sure if I will go with tile, wood or tatami mats.
My RV sits two comfortably and sleeps two comfortably. Me and my wife. Everybody else can walk. We simply don't take passengers or ride alongs.
We pulled out the dinette, the built-in ice maker, the couch that reclines and folds down into another bed, and every other accoutrements that would accommodate six to eight people for a two week vacation. Now there is so much more space for activities. The dinette area turned in to a prep area with a custom built cabinet underneath with lots of shallow drawers. I can quite categorically state that the kitchen and prep area in the RV is larger than the one in our condo and has way more storage. The bathroom/dressing room is pretty comfortably sized too. I pulled out the shower enclosure and put in a Japanese soaking tub and a simple curtain rail for showers.
Interior is an eclectic mix between boho and traditional Japanese. Full height sliding shoji screens with reinforced lexan inserts (just in case someone left something on a countertop and I need to slam on the brakes) that separate cockpit from living area for privacy. Sliding shoji screen doors on bathroom and bedroom. Sliding shoji screen window covers. All the 1980's era country kitchen knobs, handles and pulls got replaced with either custom made pulls or an eclectic mixture of cabinet pulls we have found on our travels. Replaced all the external cabinet door hinges interior euro-hinges. All the country kitchen woodwork got sanded and repainted to a neutral white. Replaced all the terrible "we cut a lot of corners" drawer slides with push to open/soft-close slides.
We went with reasonably high-end appliances; GE Profile fridge/freezer, cook top, microwave, dishwasher, Gaggenau high BTU wok unit converted to propane, and a Bosch washer/dryer combo unit in the bathroom. Wolf counter top oven (which also doubles as our toaster). And then the usual collection of small appliances that every kitchen has; rice maker, food mixer, food processor, immersion blender, Wega Polaris 2 group machine, teppanyaki grill plate that sits over the regular cook top. Built a vented (to the outside) cat litter box into a cabinet in the bathroom. Bunch of solar on the roof (that I need to get up there and clean) and a lot of lithium in the basement to power all the electronics. The one thing we don't have in our RV is a regular TV screen, which means we don't have anything to point any of our furniture at. Have been contemplating a composting toilet, which would reduce our black water tank to pretty much just grey water storage.
I put in two sit-to-stand electric desks, with Humanscale monitor arms, and a Humanscale laptop arm. Both desks have dual 4K curved displays and wireless accessories. Amazon has some nice mesh workstation chairs that fold down and slide right under the desks when not in use. Custom 19" rack mount cabinet. Ubiquiti Dream Machine Pro SE with a couple of WiFi APs and a G3 doorbell camera. APC LiIon UPS. ~24TB (30TB physical, 22.something TB actual) flash-only Synology media server (music, movies & TV shows) that automatically syncs to the Synology in the condo whenever the RV connects to specific WiFi networks. We have a WiFi booster antenna that will form a bridge for us to distant networks - use a LinkSys with OpenWRT and some custom scripts to make that happen. And we have a cellular booster for our T-Mobile phones & hotspot with about 100GB of data per month.
Couple of e-bikes in the storage bay, my wife's reflector telescope, and a tool chest of accessories and tools for RV maintenance and those "aw, shit" moments of life, e.g. air filters, emergency fluids, power washer, cordless drill, full set of wrenches. We travel reasonably light (for an RV); no camping gear, no deck chairs, very few clothing items, not a lot of extra stuff that many RV'ers haul around with them.
I will agree with the article, you don't need anywhere near the amount of stuff you think you need. I only have AAA and Good Sam for the recovery/break down options, and some extra insurance in case of a complete failure. Obviously remote work has made using the RV a lot more possible than it did pre-COVID, though the number of RV'ers has skyrocketed since before the pandemic.
Classic GMC motorhomes are pieces of work, but the 455s run and run and run and run.
> Pre-Post Note/ Nov 2017. Although this post was written in 2011
> it’s still my most popular post ever (!!), so I’m refreshing it
> as part of our 8th year on the road. See my updates in italics
> below the original text on each topic.