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Comment by brianbreslin | Hacker News Reader

There is an elderly gentleman (71) here in Miami Beach that has been running the same 8 mile run for 49 years now, every single day[0]. I think he's missed a few days over that span. It's both incredible and awe inspiring (and maybe sad depending on how you view it) to see folks repeating the same physical feat every day for their entire lives. A college friend of mine wrote a book about him if you're curious[1].

[0] https://www.axios.com/local/miami/2022/10/12/miami-beach-run... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Running-Raven-Amazing-Community-Inspi...

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I was running up Twin Peaks in SF today when a woman in a car called out to me and asked me a question about the entrance to the park. I stepped into the road to answer her, and didn't pay attention. A jeep swerved around me (fairly close) while honking.

It was a reminder that, if you want to run for a long time and you're growing older, you've really got to think hard about safe routes & how to stick to them.

For example, for this guy, if you're going to run 8 miles for 50 years, then safety would be the top concern - especially in your 70's. You can't do much better than a beach route. Soft surface, no cars, no way to screw up and fall and easily injure yourself: that scores like a 10 out of 10 for a running route. And 50 years of daily running can add up to a lot of risk. For example, 1 close call with a car every 1,000 runs = 18 close calls over 50 years.

I'd probably make the same choice in his position.

It seems the odds eventually became stacked against the running man in Charlottesville, VA https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a20859405/locals-remember-...

Wow, I went to UVA in the early 2000s I vaguely recall seeing him run once or twice. Had no idea he was a former student who never left. Just thought it was a quirky townie who was another interesting character of cville.

It goes without saying that an easy way to reduce risk is to dress like you’re going to a disco party during the day and cover yourself with lights at night.

Don’t use lights, use retro reflectors.

There is the option to use both.

(but watch out for sarlacci)

I've always wondered that if you play the long game, what kinds of shoes should you wear? I read people in countries that go barefoot don't have foot problems. Should you wear heavily padded shoes or run in low-heel or minimalist shoes?

Go to a good shoe store that caters to runners, and try on a bunch of different pairs of shoes to find something that will fit your needs and physiology.

And then throw them away after 500 miles and get a new pair.

I have a suspicion that a big part of the reason that people are feeling better running in Hokas is that they waited too long to replace their last pair of shoes, and literally anything would have been an improvement by the time they switched.

And I say this as someone who recently switched to Hokas. They’re fine.

> Go to a good shoe store that caters to runners

I did that and I even paid extra for the "running assessment" that they were offering to those interested in running the Berlin marathon. It took me ca. 4 years to recover from the damage those shoes did to my knees.

I would say "go to a doctor", but the first one I visited just googled "running shoes" on his computer and told me to get something like that. At least the second one actually knew what he was doing.

My point being: I would suggest everyone to try really hard to get a good recommendation instead of trusting someone blindly.

Can I ask what they suggested and what you ended up with eventually?

The guy at the store filmed my running, pointed out that (according to him) my feet bend inwards when running and recommended some Adidas shoes that (again, according to him) would "fix" the bending and make it fully vertical. I got instead terrible knee pain, to the point of barely being able to go up the stairs.

The second doctor told me to rip the insoles and replace them with some orthopedic, custom-made ones (my insurance covers a pair or two a year) and also prescribed me some knee pads with metal rods on the sides that I must wear whenever I run. He also sent me to physiotherapy for a month where I learned exercises to strengthen the knee and core muscles. Whenever my knees start to hurt (typically after not exercising for a while) these exercises make it go away.

Look up the nordic, and reverse nordic curls, and tibialis raises and TKE exercises. There is a youtuber who has popularized them (kneesovertoesguy). I've found they help me immensely when it comes to stiffness/soreness in my knee (had knee surgery a year ago). If I was better about it I would be more regular about doing these exercises regularly, but alas I am too lazy. (I also have flat foot issue and found "racing flats" with not too thick soles to be my ideal, even running marathons).

> my feet bend inwards

Sounds like pes planus aka flat foot. Yes, run of the mill Adidas would do nothing, you need a shoe with a good side support and custom insoles.

I love my Hokas, they have different models which cater to differently-shaped and differently used feet. Some people love minimalism, but if I push hard enough (which isn't hard at all), on hard surfaces and without much padding, I develop pain which I would categorize as tendon being stretched too much. I can get it also from just walking on tarmac sidewalks in hard shoes for long enough.

Doesn't happen in Hokas, at all. They basically allow me to run as much as I can, or have multiple-hour walks almost every evening. Another good ones, for me just for walking, are La Sportiva Raptor - seemingly one of few manufacturers that caters to sporty people with wide feet.

Technique will matter more. The book Chi Running is a great start. It's an unfortunate title but the content is great. I recommended it to a friend years ago that had broken his back and was unable to complete the running part to enter the police academy. I thought he was going to burst into tears when he thanked me after being able to complete a lap on the local track.

I've heard Pose Running is another good system.

Good luck!!

Listen to your body. Over 10 years ago I switched to being barefoot, or minimalist shoes depending on the situation. I no longer get cortisone shots in my knees and I no longer have any back pain. It just works for me.

Take the transition very slow, or you will possibly injure yourself and then say "barefoot running/walking wrecked my feet/knees...".

Going barefoot is great for everyday tasks. I'm barefoot now. But running on modern surfaces is not an everyday task - even if you do it every day. Wear quality shoes while running or jumping.

You should wear shoes to prevent getting a nail or glass shard or syringe sticking to the bottom of your foot. I at least would prefer long term foot problems to short term cuts or infections.

I would prefer the most lightweight shoes if the road is really good and military boots if the road is really bad.

Thats why I stick to trails/logging roads/ATV trails

Just curious, what point of view makes daily running seem sad? Is the premise that he missed out on ‘better’ things?

Thought I’d ask since hearing these stories of old healthy people brings me so much happiness.

> Just curious, what point of view makes daily running seem sad?

If I was to guess, it's similar to the tone of the article. You can't beat time.

Eventually they'll be forced to stop and there's a particular sadness in watching those who used to be able to do great feats no longer do them.

For me, it's the same sadness as watching a sharp mind like my grandfather's succumb to alzheimer's. It's not quick, and it's not painless for everyone involved. For me, it was years watching him forget me, his daughter (my mother), and eventually language all together.

Better to have loved and lost than never have loved at all?

> Better to have loved and lost than never have loved at all?

Absolutely, otherwise what's the point of living if not experiencing life in its more intensive (more rewarding but also more hurting) aspects?

Similar to ie mountaineers and various other extreme sports folks, they all love the life more than average Joe since they experienced how much it can give if you push it further. Despite what some think they are not suicidal, in contrary, they keep doing what they love despite the increased risk of losing it all prematurely. No adventurer regrets doing adventures when looking back.

> No adventurer regrets doing adventures when looking back.

That's literally survivorship bias. I wonder how many (say) climbers died in the Himalayas thinking "I wish I hadn't done this".

So its a combo of them wrapping their identity into this one thing (running here), eventually not being able to keep doing it, but also there is an aspect that I am purely assuming which is they could have done more variety of stuff with their life. This last point being super biased as its based in my own desires, and who knows, maybe they LOVE this one thing and that's all they want for fulfillment.

But to your point, i also love hearing stories of old people defying our expectations of what an old person should be able to do.

I agree, but I can also view such strident commitment to a fixed set of ideas to be pretty unimaginative, or lacking in categorical ambition, lacking in exploration perhaps depending on the person. My father for example has not been on a plane in 34 years. Not for any legitimate practical reason, though he'd come up with something if prompted; almost like he's archived his exposure to the world in 1989. He has no idea what it's like to even book a flight, how much it really costs, how security procedures have changed over time, and has no ambition to ever leave the continent.

Being far too broad and shallow in life is just as bad, if not worse.

In the worst case, the depth-first life leaves a person mostly useless except for at least one deep skill, but the breadth-first life in the worst case can leave a person completely useless since no skills have been developed past an arbitrarily superficial level.

These are, of course the extreme ends where life has been well wasted. :)

True, but then you have to evaluate the value of having a deep skill versus a wide range of xp. Usually, it's a feat in itself b/c starting things often require money, which is difficult to obtain with no deep skills (unless given/inherited).

I'm more of the opinion that no deep skills is no skills at all. Similarly, a wide range of experiences from a blank slate without the necessary effort to connect the dots might as well be no experience at all.

Often an inheritance comes with an upbringing full of entirely different experiences, culture, and values from those who do not inherit much if anything. Deep knowledge and skills are naturally imbued into the next generation without much deliberate effort despite the fact that someone did put in much deliberate effort to manifest that situation. Every lineage begins with someone who had to learn it all the hard way.

I respect that though. Like what is the point in leaving if you’re happy?

I suppose that's a deeper question of why do anything different at all if your current set of things results in your happiness?

Aside from practical limitations, health, economic prosperity, I'm of the opinion that there's value in staying compelling by exploring your curiosities instead of dismissing them in favour of protecting your current happiness. In order to have resilient connections with others, you need to find ways to stay attractive over time, and it's a consequence of doing new things from time to time, travel maybe being one of them.

> has no ambition to ever leave the continent.

There’s a lot to do on most continents.

> There’s a lot to do on most continents.

There's a lot to do in most cities, even. I think you could spend all your free time exploring, e.g., London and you'd be good for a few years worth.

There's plenty, it would be good to explore it further I'd think.

You can go wide and shallow or narrow and deep. There's no enough time in the world to go wide and deep on all topics. To each it's own, but personally I prefer to go explore fewer topics, but in great depth. I travel very rarely, but when I do, I try to make it at least weeks if not months. When I take up a hobby, I stick to it for years.

> He has no idea what it's like to even book a flight, how much it really costs, how security procedures have changed over time

TBH I don't think that's something to miss. I'd be pretty happy to not know that either. Unless you're writing a book about air travel security, that's probably not worth any attention.

> TBH I don't think that's something to miss. I'd be pretty happy to not know that either. Unless you're writing a book about air travel security, that's probably not worth any attention

It's more of a personal revulsion I have against having pride in being ignorant, and then relying on ancient knowledge only to inform current and future decisions. "Flying is a hassle and expensive" just isn't true in many but not all cases. It's one thing to have a preference, it's another to have prejudice, and I think ignorance turns into prejudice if you go long enough without re-evaluating the criteria you once used.

Fair enough. But flying still is an expensive hassle. And it will probably just get more expensive and more crappy experience in the future.

>...no ambition to ever leave the continent.

That's an interesting way to put it. I certainly wouldn't say I have much ambition to leave the continent either. If the time and money come up, there's places I'd like to go, and maybe I will some day. It's not a big life goal I'm working towards though.

Cross-continental travel can be tricky to convince yourself of the value, if you've never really been driven toward it, but there's a certain type of person who will imagine a burden before even exploring the real numbers, and dismiss forever as too expensive without an idea of what it costs; in the case of my dad, not ever even acquiring a cursory sense of the cost

I know the cost is going to be a couple thousand dollars. It's something that I'd be reasonably able to afford in the next few years if I made it a goal. It's value, however, is less to me than a lot of other things that would cost the same amount. I could upgrade a lot of my hobby equipment for the price of a trip to Europe. That would be an investment that gives back every day for years. I'd like to experience other cultures, but the amount of immersion I'd get for that price is nothing compared to the enjoyment I could get from better landscaping in my little yard, a project horse to spend the next 15 years bonding with and enjoying, or some better power tools to keep the house up with. I'm not 20 any more. I'm married. I certainly can't just leave the country for 6 months and backpack and to keep me and my husband in reasonable accommodations for that length of time is well beyond our resources and the amount of time off I can finagle at the job I love.

With a bit of effort we could afford say, 5k, to go off for a couple weeks and do the tourist things in basically any region that piques our interest. That same amount of money could provide both of us a lot more growth and enjoyment without leaving the US.

For some people, the concept of just existing without experiencing something grand or new, is a waste of life. Imagine, doing the same thing every day until you die. For some people it is peaceful and wonderful. The joy of existing. For others it is a horror. Stagnation and rot.

I used to be the former, with a great fear of missing out on all life has to offer. Lately though I'm the latter, realizing the immense joy in existing.

I don't know if it's necessarily the activity as much as the adherence to the same route that feels sad. At the same time, it's not that I feel sad for the guy, but I think it would drive me nuts if I did that. Reading about Emmanuel Kant's daily walking routine makes me feel a little bit of despair in my soul, even though I understand he probably had a much deeper internal experience going on than I can relate to.

I did the same 1.5 mile trail (Council Crest in Portland, OR w/ 750’ of elevation gain) 110 times in 2019 (part of a 10 mile round trip route from my apartment). I learned every step of the trail and named the more notable trees. I could do the whole trail in my mind and feel like I was there. I did it in 100 degree summer weather, many times in pouring rain, and even ice and snow.

I felt like it was a privilege to get to know something that deeply.

But I’m also somebody who doesn’t ever plan to leave the US or even get on a plane again because there’s so much worth seeing right outside my front door!

Thanks for sharing that. I liked your note on doing the trail in your mind because it reminds me of when I stumble through a piano piece that I learned decades ago as a kid. It somehow brings me back in time, so that I feel like I could guess what was cooking for dinner or what was stressing me out at school/home.

I learned I could do it at the dentist office while getting a cavity filled! It’s been a helpful de-stressing tool.

You know you are half way to a memory palace already?!

If you wanted to you could fairly easily use that memorized route to memorize anything else you wish to.

Yup there's a hill nearby that I've climbed about 100 times on my bike over the past couple years. I always cherish my time that I spend there - the scenery is constantly changing throughout the season, and I frequently run into acquaintances along the way.

Every day might get a little monotonous, but a couple times a week is doable (and enjoyable) for sure!

I pass a sightseeing spot on my usual run. It's on a hill, overseeing a lake bellow as well as forest surrounding the lake. I take the same picture whenever I got phone on me. Looking back at the pictures, there're no 2 identical pictures. Lush greenery, snow, ice on a lake, brownness of the fall.... Maybe a tree has fallen or a younger tree got big enough to cover older ones since the year before.

There're tons and tons of details that are hard to notice if you ain't coming back for a hundredth time.

I’ve been walking a similar route through the nearby forest for the last 2-3 years. It really isn’t the same thing on a day to day basis. The weather changes, the plants change. In the winter, you can see quite far into the woods. In the summer, you see only green, but lots of different plants and insects. Sometimes, there’s deer, the bird sounds change with the season. Lots of woodpeckers in the winter and spring.

It’s not the only route I walk, but I was surprised myself that I almost never found it boring.

As someone who mostly frequents like, two, different running routes, I tend to agree.

If you at all get into a bit of nature, it is so much more varied than the daily route between the computer and coffee machine at home for example.

I think people misses that comparison.

Some people just love routine. Just recently I have listened interview with local Olympic swimmer Giedrius Titenis (not in English, so won't share). He mentioned that he liked to swim in a pool the same n*100 meter distances multiple times each day. Repeat and repeat and repeat. This allows person to compare current result with previous. Measure time and think "oh, I made in xy seconds but still had some power left, I can do better next time".

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I find repitition of the same routine mind-numbing. Walking to the office where there is only one valid route, it destroys me. I think others find such things meditative.

Meta: I don't get how people claim to be curious about other's perspectives, then when someone shares a perspective they downvote it because it's not the same as their own.

It would drive you nuts, but they probably love it or they would have stopped years ago.

> these stories of old healthy people

Have you read the article? That gentlement is not actually healthy and some other activities could contribute to a better health.

I must admit I skimmed it but I got no suggestion of bad health, only a description of graceful ageing.

What activities would be better? He eats well, exercises and has a social life; sounds pretty good to me?

Directly in the beginning, without even scrolling, it says:

> Raven has chronic back pain, spinal stenosis and vertigo. His feet hurt so much — from bone spurs and calluses — that he runs with his New Balance sneakers untied.

"Running" for 3 hours a day likely contributes to all that. Mixing it up would be an idea. Biking, swimming, kayaking, rowing, tennis, badminton, taking walks, there is so much you can do.

Being stubborn is not a healthy character trait, even though sometimes people hail it as "inspiring". What this guy inspires me to be is to ensure I never turn into him.

Well yeah. The sacrifice must be crazy. He couldn't travel I imagine?

The compulsion is whats sad about it. Like with every serious addict.

Ah I see, maybe I interpret it differently because I don’t think all compulsions are bad. Compulsions only become addictions when they seriously negatively affect your life.

There are, for example, buddhist monks that repeat the same ritual for their whole life. The sadness could be in the eye of the beholder.

I’ve always thought that there is nothing sadder to behold than a buddhist monk.

This was in response of the parent comment. For some people running is closer to meditation than to a physical activity looking for performance in terms of speed and distance.

Also, there is a mention here about the book "What I Talk about When I Talk about Running".

This is really how old school martial artists in traditional forms like Karate are. They practice the same things every day. They live to an old age and even then are quite nimble and strong. The OkinawanSpirit youtube channel has interviews with several of these masters and it's fascinating to watch https://www.youtube.com/@OkinawanSpirit/videos

It's incredible, no question about it. But it's also incredibly sad. I mean, you have one life. One. And you spend 2-3 hours every day on the very same f'ing route? Life has so much more to offer.

Besides, 3 hours for 8 miles, that's not running, it's slowish walking. Not judging here, I'm not 70 yet, but I'm wondering how much of his health problems are actually causally related to this stubbornness. In a bad way.

> And you spend 2-3 hours every day on the very same f'ing route?

Wait till you hear about people going to the gym 3-4 days a week.

Repetitive activity has serious benefits in terms of outcome / mental load

That's quite different. It's not the same gym for 50 years, what they do in the gym changes over time etc. I'm personally in the gym 2-3 times a week. Very different from running the same route for 2-3 hours every day for 50 years.

We have a similar person in Lyon. Everybody cheer him on when he passes them by. He always wear a red pair of shorts. No idea if he’s still doing it though…

Reverse Tom Scott: physically fit with red shorts.

Take a deep breath. Let it go. That's 1 out of 670 million (if you live to 80). Just being alive is incredible and awe inspiring.

I'm not quite sure why, but reading this post gave me more anxiety than anything else over the last few weeks. Maybe the awareness of the finite nature of life.

Beach sounds like a good way to get injured if you aren’t a barefoot runner.

I thought so too - sand can be uneven and shifting, an easy way to damage an ankle if you aren't paying attention. Then again, maybe the brain eventually becomes skilled at adapting to it?

I read that book! (I've read all the running books...) Thank your college friend for me.

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