The world’s oldest ultramarathon runner is racing against death
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[0] https://www.axios.com/local/miami/2022/10/12/miami-beach-run... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Running-Raven-Amazing-Community-Inspi...
Also, there is a mention here about the book "What I Talk about When I Talk about Running".
It was a reminder that, if you want to run for a long time and you're growing older, you've really got to think hard about safe routes & how to stick to them.
For example, for this guy, if you're going to run 8 miles for 50 years, then safety would be the top concern - especially in your 70's. You can't do much better than a beach route. Soft surface, no cars, no way to screw up and fall and easily injure yourself: that scores like a 10 out of 10 for a running route. And 50 years of daily running can add up to a lot of risk. For example, 1 close call with a car every 1,000 runs = 18 close calls over 50 years.
I'd probably make the same choice in his position.
I've always wondered that if you play the long game, what kinds of shoes should you wear? I read people in countries that go barefoot don't have foot problems. Should you wear heavily padded shoes or run in low-heel or minimalist shoes?
And then throw them away after 500 miles and get a new pair.
I have a suspicion that a big part of the reason that people are feeling better running in Hokas is that they waited too long to replace their last pair of shoes, and literally anything would have been an improvement by the time they switched.
And I say this as someone who recently switched to Hokas. They’re fine.
Doesn't happen in Hokas, at all. They basically allow me to run as much as I can, or have multiple-hour walks almost every evening. Another good ones, for me just for walking, are La Sportiva Raptor - seemingly one of few manufacturers that caters to sporty people with wide feet.
I did that and I even paid extra for the "running assessment" that they were offering to those interested in running the Berlin marathon. It took me ca. 4 years to recover from the damage those shoes did to my knees.
I would say "go to a doctor", but the first one I visited just googled "running shoes" on his computer and told me to get something like that. At least the second one actually knew what he was doing.
My point being: I would suggest everyone to try really hard to get a good recommendation instead of trusting someone blindly.
The second doctor told me to rip the insoles and replace them with some orthopedic, custom-made ones (my insurance covers a pair or two a year) and also prescribed me some knee pads with metal rods on the sides that I must wear whenever I run. He also sent me to physiotherapy for a month where I learned exercises to strengthen the knee and core muscles. Whenever my knees start to hurt (typically after not exercising for a while) these exercises make it go away.
Sounds like pes planus aka flat foot. Yes, run of the mill Adidas would do nothing, you need a shoe with a good side support and custom insoles.
Take the transition very slow, or you will possibly injure yourself and then say "barefoot running/walking wrecked my feet/knees...".
I've heard Pose Running is another good system.
Good luck!!
Thought I’d ask since hearing these stories of old healthy people brings me so much happiness.
If I was to guess, it's similar to the tone of the article. You can't beat time.
Eventually they'll be forced to stop and there's a particular sadness in watching those who used to be able to do great feats no longer do them.
For me, it's the same sadness as watching a sharp mind like my grandfather's succumb to alzheimer's. It's not quick, and it's not painless for everyone involved. For me, it was years watching him forget me, his daughter (my mother), and eventually language all together.
Better to have loved and lost than never have loved at all?
Absolutely, otherwise what's the point of living if not experiencing life in its more intensive (more rewarding but also more hurting) aspects?
Similar to ie mountaineers and various other extreme sports folks, they all love the life more than average Joe since they experienced how much it can give if you push it further. Despite what some think they are not suicidal, in contrary, they keep doing what they love despite the increased risk of losing it all prematurely. No adventurer regrets doing adventures when looking back.
That's literally survivorship bias. I wonder how many (say) climbers died in the Himalayas thinking "I wish I hadn't done this".
Aside from practical limitations, health, economic prosperity, I'm of the opinion that there's value in staying compelling by exploring your curiosities instead of dismissing them in favour of protecting your current happiness. In order to have resilient connections with others, you need to find ways to stay attractive over time, and it's a consequence of doing new things from time to time, travel maybe being one of them.
There’s a lot to do on most continents.
There's a lot to do in most cities, even. I think you could spend all your free time exploring, e.g., London and you'd be good for a few years worth.
> He has no idea what it's like to even book a flight, how much it really costs, how security procedures have changed over time
TBH I don't think that's something to miss. I'd be pretty happy to not know that either. Unless you're writing a book about air travel security, that's probably not worth any attention.
It's more of a personal revulsion I have against having pride in being ignorant, and then relying on ancient knowledge only to inform current and future decisions. "Flying is a hassle and expensive" just isn't true in many but not all cases. It's one thing to have a preference, it's another to have prejudice, and I think ignorance turns into prejudice if you go long enough without re-evaluating the criteria you once used.
In the worst case, the depth-first life leaves a person mostly useless except for at least one deep skill, but the breadth-first life in the worst case can leave a person completely useless since no skills have been developed past an arbitrarily superficial level.
These are, of course the extreme ends where life has been well wasted. :)
Often an inheritance comes with an upbringing full of entirely different experiences, culture, and values from those who do not inherit much if anything. Deep knowledge and skills are naturally imbued into the next generation without much deliberate effort despite the fact that someone did put in much deliberate effort to manifest that situation. Every lineage begins with someone who had to learn it all the hard way.
That's an interesting way to put it. I certainly wouldn't say I have much ambition to leave the continent either. If the time and money come up, there's places I'd like to go, and maybe I will some day. It's not a big life goal I'm working towards though.
With a bit of effort we could afford say, 5k, to go off for a couple weeks and do the tourist things in basically any region that piques our interest. That same amount of money could provide both of us a lot more growth and enjoyment without leaving the US.
I felt like it was a privilege to get to know something that deeply.
But I’m also somebody who doesn’t ever plan to leave the US or even get on a plane again because there’s so much worth seeing right outside my front door!
If you wanted to you could fairly easily use that memorized route to memorize anything else you wish to.
Every day might get a little monotonous, but a couple times a week is doable (and enjoyable) for sure!
There're tons and tons of details that are hard to notice if you ain't coming back for a hundredth time.
It’s not the only route I walk, but I was surprised myself that I almost never found it boring.
If you at all get into a bit of nature, it is so much more varied than the daily route between the computer and coffee machine at home for example.
I think people misses that comparison.
Meta: I don't get how people claim to be curious about other's perspectives, then when someone shares a perspective they downvote it because it's not the same as their own.
Have you read the article? That gentlement is not actually healthy and some other activities could contribute to a better health.
What activities would be better? He eats well, exercises and has a social life; sounds pretty good to me?
> Raven has chronic back pain, spinal stenosis and vertigo. His feet hurt so much — from bone spurs and calluses — that he runs with his New Balance sneakers untied.
"Running" for 3 hours a day likely contributes to all that. Mixing it up would be an idea. Biking, swimming, kayaking, rowing, tennis, badminton, taking walks, there is so much you can do.
Being stubborn is not a healthy character trait, even though sometimes people hail it as "inspiring". What this guy inspires me to be is to ensure I never turn into him.
But to your point, i also love hearing stories of old people defying our expectations of what an old person should be able to do.
I used to be the former, with a great fear of missing out on all life has to offer. Lately though I'm the latter, realizing the immense joy in existing.
Besides, 3 hours for 8 miles, that's not running, it's slowish walking. Not judging here, I'm not 70 yet, but I'm wondering how much of his health problems are actually causally related to this stubbornness. In a bad way.
Wait till you hear about people going to the gym 3-4 days a week.
Repetitive activity has serious benefits in terms of outcome / mental load
I already skipped last year due to an injury. I think it's better. I'm being careful about recovery.
I don't mean to be maudlin. I have probably five decades left to live, and much to do that isn't running. But there's a loss of a part of identity that isn't thrilling me.
Absolutely! When the 2020 season was cancelled due to Covid, one of my teammates asked "what are we supposed to do now, ride bikes for fun?" They were joking, but I think the sentiment rings true for a lot of people.
Of course, I was young and male and healthy, and just finishing put me in the 95th percentile of everybody. I could compare myself to an age group rather than everybody, but that too is a narrowing of identity.
I could drop from marathons and do half-marathons, which are a far less ludicrous sport. Marathons really aren't good for you. It's more about being willing to endure those last 6 miles than actual fitness. A half marathon doesn't have a month-long recovery time. And completing it would still put me in a 90%+ bracket (of some poorly-defined, purely idiosyncratic notion).
Activities that are hard on your body, and 100% physical, can be really unforgiving when it comes to the aging process.
With rock climbing you can kind of shift your focus.. maybe do more trad climbing instead of sport or bouldering. Focus on different types of climbs, maybe more technical slabby climbs where you're on your feet more. You can still feel like you're genuinely participating in the activity you love, even if you can't do exactly the same things you did before to the same extent.
Seeing him ride, I would have guessed he was in his 20's. After his helmet came off, he looked about 60. When I saw him walk he looked about 80.
For every guy climbing till his 70s there are a lot of those who had to stop for reason XYZ much before. If its not this its shoulder, anything in legs, spine and so on. Genes play a huge part too and thats pure lottery.
I find the "puzzle"(or crux) in the climb make it less boring then repetitive movements at a gym, plus the genuine sense of fear from the danger helps me push my limit a bit (though I did have a poor fall as a result, so needs some caution).
Also, practical if you like to work with your hands, and I think for guys having decent arms and shoulders are particularly attractive.
I was never a great climber -- I miss doing V3s, but the V2s keep me interested. (A lot of that is actually due to pandemic, which cost me a bit of the very specialized bits of muscle that go into crimpy and slopey routes. I am gradually getting some of it back.) I should do more top roping, which affords a bit more room to solve problems without falling off and starting over.
I trail run in a much more relaxed way now -- enough to get a good workout, but definitely not as competitively as I used to road run. I've also picked up trail biking, and it's been SUCH a relief to just not think about my speed. I focus more on the experience of enjoying nature and I feel like that's a much healthier place to be. You can still push it occasionally, but there's a really pleasant niche at 60-80% of your max capacity! I also get the opportunity to share the sport with friends who aren't quite as speedy as me; turns out it's more fun to be social during an activity than to push myself.
And I have to say: at 53, even 4 hours is very very respectable. Try to remember that these things are first and foremost hobbies that are supposed to be fun!
I would like to run a full marathon someday but I have no desire to run "quickly" for such a distance; I honestly think the training for that would leave me in worse shape than I am now.
Don't run it "quickly" then. I know a bunch of people who are normally in the 5:30-6:15 range for a marathon (and several of them are well into the multi-100s of marathons run). If you have "6 hour" runs[1] near you, they're probably a good option for working up to / slowly doing a marathon.
[1] Run as many laps as you want in 6 hours. Handy for slow marathons because you know there'll be people around for at least 7 hours. Handy for bailing at a half / 10k / etc. since you can't DNF after you've done one lap.
Also, there's tons of studies that show elite endurance athletes train at Zone 1/2 (60-80% of VO2 Max) for 80%~90% of their training.
As an athlete, there's a big difference in mentality between trying to get better over time vs just trying to not get worse too quickly.
You should let yourself feel it, and eventually you’ll make peace with it.
Plus you can coast a bit when you need to breathe.
Source: Have hit plenty of trees MTB riding, and seen snakes, but fortunately not both at the same time.
I'm a roadie for life though and fortunately the roads are pretty safe here. But I have definitely seen some regions in the US where I would not want to ride my bike on the roads.
I was a swimmer first, never really competitive but I am still in the first wave without even trying. And then everybody passes me on the bike, and it's hours of my back killing me. (Aero bars, drops, hoods makes no difference, though at least switching back and forth lets the painful part shift around.)
The thing I really like about running is that I can do it any time: in the dark, in the rain, in the snow. And if I let my mind wander, I won't run off the road at 20 MPH.
Males have to get to 65 years old before a 4-hour marathon will even qualify them for Boston.
I'd wanted to qualify for Boston in my 20s, which at the time required a 3:10 marathon. It was just barely at the limit of possibility, if I had a perfect day, which I never did.
Then they dropped that limit to 3:05, and that might as well be on the far side of the moon. So, I never run Boston. Ah, well. That was a very stretchy stretch goal.
You have plenty of time, I've trained with lots of people that started late and were still running impressive times.
As a friend of mine put it, "aging is a process of renunciation".
However, it really doesn’t matter. Don’t not get into to running (or other sport) just because you are not young (double negatives used for emphasis).
Used to easily run half marathons as if it was nothing and on average 8-12km daily pre pandemic. Then COVID happened and my world closed down so did my running (and pretty much everything else) and now I struggle with everything. Yes, I am ~3 years older (early to mid 30s) but I don't think that should limit me. I also put on weight but I lost it then a bit of it keeps creeping back.
What's the way to get back - how should one approach it? Muscles? Gym? Strength? How?
The main thing that has helped me is to fix my form – make sure you always land with your leg straight down underneath your hip. Work with a reflective surface or a coach until you get this down and know what correct feels like. Then be conscious of this until it’s 2nd nature.
Second important thing are fresh shoes. No more than 600km.
Third – barbell squats and deadlifts. This gives your legs strength and balance so muscles/tendons can hold your joints steady.
Fourth – I added daily foam rolling this year and it really helped with tightness and resulting imbalances in my legs. Made running much easier.
Oh and make sure you eat enough. That helps with muscle soreness.
As credentials I offer that I ran a 3:15:28 marathon in November at 35, my fastest ever.
That’s what shoe companies want you to believe. I just run until they fall apart. A couple of thousand km easily.
2:45 marathon at 41.
Amazing! What kind of shoes do you use?
Mine do basically fall apart around 600km and I can feel a big difference in cushioning. New shoes feel like springs that give my feet a sproing, old shoes are like running barefoot – no sproing at all.
By the time I need to buy new ones, fashions will hopefully have shifted back…
By the way, when I say fall apart, I mean it literally: toes peeking out and losing bits of the sole.
I also rotate the shoes: the older ones are for the easy runs, the newer ones for tempo or intervals.
I'm out east now, where the dirt has a lot of clay. I've run near Phoenix, which is more like compacted sand, and near Seattle, where the trails in the woods are even softer and easier on the joints.
Lungs--well that's a different story, especially on the uphills.
But I'm certainly not an athlete, never have been.
It's not running either since those particular shoes of mine have wheels.
So I'm very dependent on pavement for this activity.
>Concrete is terrible on the joints, and asphalt only a little better.
>He had worn out an average of two and a half pairs of running shoes each year ever since 1978
I don't have that kind of longevity. I did get new wheels a few years ago but I only had the old ones since 1983, so that's nothing like 1978. I don't lubricate them every year since I'm trying to get more exercise in a shorter period of time once I really thought about it. Didn't always have that good an attitude and it really helps now, same with skating into the wind which I used to dislike for obvious reasons. Last night storms were coming after work but I thought it was my last chance this week for dry pavement so I went anyway. For a while there it was 20 MPH wind with gusts to 30 before it finally did rain me out so I didn't get in the whole 10 miles. It was only really rough for the 25% of the time I was heading eastbound, where I only went about 2 MPH but with that kind of wind it takes as much energy as going 22 to 32.
>“Here’s something you’re probably too old to do.”
In regular shoes I usually go about 3 MPH for about 3 hours in my employer's chem lab, sometimes two or three times that. Not exactly toxin-free but it is what it is. I've got instruments in opposite ends of the lab and if I want to experiment as much as 3 people would do that's just what it takes. There's somebody there 24 hrs, once-in-a-while me. Up until less than a year ago I was getting the $10 running shoes from Walmart and wearing them out in 3 months. People in the lab give me a hard time because I keep wearing them an additional 3 months after that. They don't realize I'm also dancing to the oldies a few hours a week, often with much younger women who seem to like the oldies just fine. I'm no Mr Bojangles but for this I like it when there is no tread any more and the shoes have softened up quite a bit. With inflation I think those cheap ones will never be available again so I've downgraded to the $24 kind now. It's the only thing close.
Talk about asphalt, might as well throw this in here for a little relief, disregard if you hate petroleum chemistry. Now with heavy fuel oil we sometimes determine a component known as asphaltenes. This consists of some heavy solid hydrocarbon molecules of somewhat nebulous structure, dissolved in the oil, but not actually paraffins or tar. None of which I would ever want to get onto any expensive shoes. Anyway I'm a senior operator and advanced chemists still seem to expect me to know more than people actually can about this flaky stuff, even after they are fairly skilled at performing the difficult test. So occasionally I have to explain it in detail, and with my lengthy background I relate it to skateboarders of all things. It helps them to remember the fine points of unknowability easier. I tell them exactly what asphaltenes really are. First there are skateboarders who prefer solid concrete most of all, other times there are some that only want to skate on asphalt. Those are the asphalt-teens. Whose-ass fault was that anyway. Nobody's fault but mine.
Right above my brass plaque from ASTM I still display (what I thought was) a unique sticker from a short promotional run by a local printer, which I never have actually stuck to anything since the guy gave it to me with my letterheads when I had started my own lab back in the 1990's:
"The difficult we will do immediately, the impossible will take a little longer."
Since that's what I mainly do day-to-day scientifically for decades now.
TIL this saying was actually coined by: >Fridtjof Nansen, the Norwegian explorer who led the first crossing of Greenland on skis
And this is what I just happened to "run" across earlier today:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/a-96-year-old-form...
Plus this about another marathoner mentioned in the Dag story:
>Singh, who attributed his physical longevity to abstaining from smoking and alcohol and to a vegetarian diet
Seems to work for me so far.
The best way to get back is to stop worrying about getting back and to just go out the next chance you get.
Go for a half a mile walk tomorrow. Ease into it slowly. Gain mileage by 10% a week. If you’re consistent you’ll be back in no time.
But don’t worry too much about all that: just get moving.
Secondly don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can jump back into running 8km or so daily, you need to build yourself up slowly first, use an easier program like couch to 10k after which you should be in good enough shape to start increasing frequency of runs.
While you're in this phase concentrate on easy paced runs, so hopefully the lungs shouldn't be an issue, you should run at a pace where you can hold a conversation without struggling for breath.
;-) maybe make plans as though you have a lot less, and enjoy the bonus years instead?
I am a male of similar age in New Zealand, and my median lifetime prediction is the age of my parents. My parents started really slowing down 10 years ago, and have elderly issues, even though they have mostly led much healthier lifestyles than I.
High blood pressure since 27, genetics.
I can tell myself it doesn't matter but when I'm honest - it saddens and maddens me that there are those who live terrible (health wise) lives, are objectively terrible (just bad people) people, and will outlive me by decades.
Anyway, I thought OP had some harder evidence about their own claim, but it seems to be a guesstimate.
HOWEVER, we should put this in context. Apologies in advanced for switching to cholesterol for this example. For example, from memory, total cholesterol above 7mmol/L increases the risk of heart attack by around 20%. Your average typical annual risk of having a heart attack is 0.23%, so high cholesterol increases this to 0.28%. That's still low in nominal terms. Smoking, on the other hand, can increase risk of hart attack by as much as 700%. This raises one's annual risk to 1.61%. Still low in nominal terms, but much higher than high cholesterol. Now consider the many other factors we control, like diet, pollution, exercise, stress, and alcohol and other drugs. These mediate the nominal risk further still.
My current position is to lead a healthy lifestyle while individually combating the clearly bad lifestyle choices like smoking. I don't smoke anymore because it's so obviously hazardous that the benefits are not worth it. I might consider taking statins in the future if the side effects are few.
Yeah, unfair, eh wot? Maybe a god could create equality and perfect justice, but anecdotally I haven't seen it happen yet.
Is it possible to learn to be chiller and more accepting? Is stress twice the killer for those who were gifted dodgy genes by their ancestors?
You are surely already in the top 10% of humanity, so sour grapes that another fellow gets 20% more than your riches in time is hard to swallow ;p
Personally, the bastards in my world seem to get their comeuppance because while they present a lucky face, I often find they have shot lives when I know more detail.
I'm a mostly-good middle-aged white guy from New Zealand (godzone[1]), so I reckon chances are that I have a similar outlook to you.
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/3q4nth/hi_nz_wh...
I'll be enjoying my turn with glaucoma, since I also have his high blood pressure.
I’ve come to actually love walking now, weirdly enough. Feels meditative. I think part of the key is focusing on form, which leads you to sometimes forget your physical existence.
Be strict about not going anaerobic. Try to get 8-10 hours of cardio a week, with 25%-50% of that on a weekend hike, and ideally one other day that’s 90 minutes or so. Also do some strength training.
But volume is king. If you try to go too fast you’ll only train your anaerobic ability, which you can’t sustain in a hike. You want to be extremely good at going fast at a low level of exertion.
I’m nowhere near 4 mph at 15% incline. More like 2 right now. But I’m gradually getting there with all this volume, and I only started training two weeks ago for this season (before this I was trying to only focus on weights). I also plan on adding a lot of low intensity stair climbing soon.
Despite how much time I’m spending, my body feels great. It’s not like running, which beats you up.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
My parents died in their 50's and I'm sure as hell ain't going to die younger than them.
Bernd Heinrich is 83 and recently wrote a whole book (highly recommend) about running and aging, Racing the Clock. There's also the Bay Area legend Eldrith Gosney who is the same age and still kicking. https://ultrasignup.com/m_results_participant.aspx?fname=Eld...
In other words, people training for ultramarathons really are probably working harder than other people, even accounting for lifestyle and income disparities.
I worked at a mid-tier consulting firm as my first job and had an incredible work-life balance. I ran 3-4 times a week and cycled twice a week. I got into triathlons and even completed a 24hr obstacle race challenge where you had to complete a 11km course with ~40 obstacles as many times as possible in 24 hours. I completed it 8 times. I was fit.
A few years later I moved into a top-tier consulting firm and my work-life balance evaporated. (I also picked up a girlfriend along the way.) I'm lucky to get one gym session and one run in a week. I participate in probably only 1 or 2 races a year (instead of the usual 5-7 before I joined). I'm miserable. I only realised in the last few months how important training and being fit is to my identity and that even being successful in a "prestigious" consulting firm is an insufficient salve for the wound. Especially since my "peak" probably lies somewhere in my mid-30s, which are only a few years away for me, I really want to pick up where I left off. I can't wait to find another job now and find that part of myself again.
Good luck and wish you the best getting back to a happier place.
I’ve been in a similar situation before and I was never happier.
If you find these kind of passions in life, corporate work world is just necessary evil distraction to get money to actually live and do what you want. Which I am fine with, but around me I see very few people with similar passions in their lives.
One dangerous thing I noticed - with diminishing number of trainings, my mindset also changed a bit. Getting motivation for workouts got harder, motivation to push myself a bit is lower. I actually could find more time if I tried harder. At least it goes both ways - increasing frequency brings it back, which is great now since I can run outside in the forest and it gets dark later.
That said, as a relatively new runner I'm really undecided whether to train for a full marathon. For context: I'm 38; I began running about less than 2 years ago. In the last 12 months, I ran 3 half marathons. I run 3-4 times a week. A month-ish ago I accomplished my "Cracking 2" project[1] of running a half-m in just under 2 hours (1hr59m) in non-stop rain of 7C.
I feel like 2 hours of running is the "sweet spot" that allows you to train for other aspects like resistance, etc while letting you to maintain the fitness for the long term. Still, I feel a slight pull to train for the full marathon. (But the unhealthy-looking thinness of marathon and longer distance runners is not inspiring.) For now, I'll just enjoy the half-marathons until I can thoroughly convince myself that training for a full marathon is "worth it". There's so many variables that I can improve on the half-m distance, and still keep it exciting.
As somebody who’s recently started running marathons. you’re 100% correct to enjoy half marathons and lower distances until you “have to” run something longer.
The marathon is the first common race distance where it just doesn’t feel like the human body is particularly made to do it. The training takes more time and is more work. Lots of long runs have the potential to end up feeling ominous instead of relaxing.
Also I suspect that once you’re running full marathons at a decent pace, your training has probably crossed over from increasing health to decreasing health.
Glad you say the phrase "it [full marathon] just doesn’t feel like the human body is particularly made to do it". I don't mind the training, but question the long-term safety aspect.
My left foot is flat and it aches noticeably around the area of ankle joint after 22KM distance of hiking or running. This is "diffuse pain", and it goes away in a day or two. I've been trying to understand the root-cause of it for a long time to no avail. I recently visited a sports medicine specialist to get a professional opinion on whether I can safely train for a full marathon. He suggested a fancy "SPECT-CT" scan for the foot-bone. Looking at the result yesterday, everything is good; no major issues, but "I spot a sensitivity in the area of that ankle joint, but I still don't know the cause of it", he said. So he suggested an MRI scan to rule out any other issues. This will be my last attempt at understanding this problem. I know how to live with it; it's not egregious if I'm being careful.
But he did say that I can train for a full marathon if I wanted, "but listen to the foot" after each longer than 22KM training run.
For now, I'm still enjoying the 22-25KM range. I'll probably start some trail runs, which require different preparation for the unexpected bumps in the terrain.
Training for a 4h marathon in your 40s will not alter your body composition to that degree.
to clarify, is that 2hrs daily, or 2hrs 3-4 times a week (i.e. every 2 days, or avg 1hr per day)?
Sometimes I think the real gains are running on near empty, when your body has to start creating blood sugar.
I also think some marathons can be pretty harmful, especially because they are unusual events, possibly masked by the fact that runners are healthier than the general population so no one takes notice - but when you start to tire it's easy to get sloppy and take a misstep that damages your feet. That said, I have a poor gait as a result of a medical/genetic issue so maybe I'm just more liable for injury.
Sorry for being ambiguous. No, I didn't mean 2 hours daily (heavens forbid! :-)), nor was I talking about training time per week[1].
I meant 2 hours as max time in one go—i.e. training for distances of roughly 22-25 KM (13-15 miles) or 2 hours is the sweet spot, I feel (maybe I'm biased). One of the main goals for me here is to reduce the likelihood of getting injured over long-term by not over-training.
[1] FWIW, I did note my rough training plan per week here in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33607869
I hear you on losing fitness: It's unfair how quickly we lose the training we put into running. Just even one month of skipping runs (due to life coming in the way) has a noticeable effect in slow-down and efficiency.
And good luck (or "succes" as they say in Dutch, which I like better as it tilts towards the positive) with your upcoming half-m. I'm sure you'll crush it!
I don't know if we know how to detect when such damage is initially occurring, but that would be an excellent field of research.
You could at least make a good faith attempt and meet people at least halfway though, right?
FWIW I've read studies saying the same thing- my critique is just with your approach here. You wouldn't believe someone who just waltzed in with a statement and refused to post any references, would you?
This is, in fact, exactly how you convince people.
So will 20 lbs of lower muscle mass which I can gain through...you guessed it, running.
At what point did running really far become the thing to aspire too when getting fit?
What about strength? Speed? Flexibility? Agility? Regardless of the evidence, most people are better served doing a good mix of activities and being generalists.
The only reason to run more than 10km is if you like running. Otherwise 5-10km at a decent pace is just a good cheap way to get effective cardio. You should probably stop there and lift something heavy.
For example, a recent study found that two thirds of pro cyclists have markedly low bone density: https://www.velonews.com/news/dutch-study-two-thirds-of-pro-....
They won’t go all the way, they’ll go part of the way.
You can have serious acute injuries from running via physical accidents or mismanagement of hydration. You can also die driving to the market to buy toilet paper, but the risks in both cases are extremely manageable.
Life threatening or debilitating chronic health problems from running high volume are rare, and far outweighed by the overall health benefits of regular exercise. Most of the ideas that persist out there, like running being bad for your joints, are complete myths. https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/will-continuing-to...
The only thing to get screened for if you want to run marathons or more is a family history of heart defects, to avoid the very small possibility of sudden cardiac death, which is a risk with basically all intense exercise, including things like shoveling snow or other manual labor. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6070620/
The amount of time I hear age related complaints about being too old or feeling tired from people my age, (which is early 30s!) is kind of nuts. People are incredibly in their head about age in our culture.
Source on that? This seems to show the opposite: https://marathonhandbook.com/what-is-a-good-marathon-time/#:...
That's Strava data and also tracks with my personal experience, no idea where that site get's its data from.
Here's some particular data from Boston, NYC and Chicago also bearing that out.
https://www.runtri.com/2012/01/marathon-finish-times-by-age-...
Meeting her at the finish line; I clearly in no way had any clue just how intense and borderline insane marathon running really is. She’d been training for about a year, but tbh I hadn’t really seen her do it a lot, since she was usually at the gym, and I guess just the idea of processing that she just did a 22km run, going up and down various hills as well; was honesty mind blowing.
It’s gotta be a labour of love, because holy cow; it seems tough.
We were warned
26 is a perfectly fine age to start building your body.
You can start at any age and it's not about accomplishing something, just offering your body a specific amount of aerobic and resistance training workload.
You don't owe this to anyone and you don't need to measure up to anyones standards, just do what feels reasonable to yourself. I was above 30 when I started regular exercise regimen. You don't need anything complex. If someone is trying to sell you up to something complex and expensive, skip it (unless you find it personally motivating). What one does need, is a routine.. I do running, kettlebells and pushups. I hate every minute of it, but luckily podcasts, audiobooks etc. make the exercise go past unnoticeably. I do it because if I don't, my body will start to punish me with various aches and pains.
The best long distance runners, the Tarahumara, got brought to races. The first they didn't do well because they were forced to wear the shoes of the sponsor. The second time they could run barefoot like they used to, in a cutout from an old tire with a cord pulled through. The 60 year old won handily. Source: Born To Run by Chris McDougall. Highly recommended, devoured it.
It's just fascinating that people can live to 80 or more and still be moderately healthy and physically fit enough to run as this guy in the article, that's all.
Since then I've started skiing, climbing, and running regularly, and there are a number of benefits that I've noticed:
- Great social outlet
- As you do it more and more, pushing yourself, and competing is quite fun
- I used to have back pain and other issues - being active has definitely helped with that
- It helps regulate my mood
Are there things you are aware of that actually work and are accessible?
Anyone aiming to age gracefully in present circumstances should look to things that are known to maintain health now imo.
As I age I only worry about care for my kids. But being able to run distance also shows the kids discipline, patience, and grit.
The sports we choose as we age should be not just good for us but also those around us. It’s a virtuous cycle.
And Dag has my utmost awe and respect.
It's "fun".
I started our ultra running because I wanted the achievements. That would never have sustained me doing it over the long term though. Eventually I learned to slow down a bit during the races so that it was less of a sufferfest and I could enjoy them more in the moment. Now just being "out there" is the reward.
Type 2 fun is my favorite way of describing it. Usually starts with good intentions, it’s miserable while it’s happening, but afterwards the mind convinces itself that the experience was enjoyable.
I believe the treadmill goes both directions. Someone who's ridden a century or run a marathon has a much different concept of what a stressful day looks like. There were always two groups of developers who seemed particularly unflappable: the cyclists, and the ex-military (I will say the ex-submariner took it too far and he was so calm he went straight into creepy). There are no guarantees here, but there are patterns. We had a particularly high maintenance manager who was trying to qualify for the Boston Marathon, for instance. I wonder now what she would have been like if she weren't running. Terrifying.
I don't think that means you have to engage in endurance sports, but maybe joining a volunteer group that cleans parks or repairs wetlands would be good not just for your self esteem but also your sanity.
At times it becomes utterly blissful, like spiritually blissful, and leaves you feeling relaxed and happy otherwise.
People have a vested interest in pretending exercise is miserable to cast themselves as spiritually superior, but they actually usually like it quite a bit.
And I'm just starting to appreciate the parts about pushing my physical limits in the past few years. When skiing, it's fun to push myself to the limits of what I can do while still staying in control and safe. When running, it's fun to push yourself the limits of what you can do, running faster, longer, etc. Ran my first half marathon with a friend this last weekend, and it was a blast.
The Born to Run hero died at ~60 while doing a 12 mile training run of massive heart damage.
Running too far or even with too fast a pace may be hazardous for the average individual according to scientists studying this subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6U728AZnV0
https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(12)...
I like Dags.
Dag means day in Scandinavian languages.