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Comment by tristor | Hacker News Reader

I like it, but I won't buy it unless it's offered in AWD. I previously had an AWD Golf (R32) and it was awesome, an electric version of that at a $40-$50k price point would be very interesting to me. The biggest issue I have is where I live, I need an AWD vehicle, and all of the AWD EVs are huge and expensive. I want a nice, small, AWD, electric car, not a shitty crossover. Why is that so hard?

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I have an 1/8 mile driveway with a curve on a slant that terrifies all the delivery drivers. I’ve always owned an FF car with great snow tires (used to be Hakka R’s, now Blizzaks) and I never get in trouble. (Rear end slides, but who cares?)

People are always getting stuck w/ AWD cars with all-weather tires and we pull them out with our tractor.

The weight distribution of EVs is different so I don’t know how they handle. I haven’t pulled one out yet.

What is an FF car? Do you mean the Ferrari FF? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_FF

FF is "front front", i.e. engine in the front, drive wheels in the front. (Or: ~all regular every day cars.) FR is front-engine rear-wheel-drive (i.e. "sports" cars), etc.

VW ID.3 GTX is going to be AWD: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/id3/355043/new-2023...

> I want a nice, small, AWD, electric car, not a shitty crossover.

Perhaps the most common EV on the road is that. Though I suppose everyone has their own version of the 'small' goalposts.

Importantly, I'm in the US. The most common EVs on the road here are crossovers, the most common vehicles on dealer lots (EV or not) are crossovers and SUVs. Small cars are very hard to find, small cars with AWD nearly impossible. My daily driver vehicle (Scion iQ) is the smallest production car in the US in the last 20 years, no longer sold here, and was originally designed for the EU market in the "city car" segment, a segment which basically does not exist in the US.

Please point to a small, AWD, electric car I can buy in the US that isn't a Tesla (shit build quality).

> shit build quality

That's old news. If build quality is your only concern, I suggest you to check them again. They supposedly improved build quality significantly after initial rollout of M3. As a data point: my family owned and drove 6 different Teslas over last 3 years - we did not have build quality (or any other) issues with any of them. All recent horror stories you heard are because of current Tesla scale and media negative bias against the company - you don't hear similar stories from other manufacturers.

I live in a city that has a heavy amount of Teslas, I can literally visibly see quality defects in panel construction on many, if not most, of these cars I see on the road and in parking lots. Every Tesla I've been in via Uber has had obvious defects in these ways. Maybe things have improved, but Tesla is nowhere near a company like Toyota or VW when it comes to even basic vehicle quality standards. It makes sense, they're a much newer operation and having to relearn how to do things using different processes and methods.

This is something that personally annoys me to a high degree. All of my cars are paint-corrected and ceramic coated, not a single spider web or swirl to be found on them, and were initially bought new after I visually inspected them. FWIW, there are older car companies that have similar quality control issues (looking at you GM).

I consider this sort of stuff to be a bellwether. If the company can't get the basics right, I don't trust anything else they have to say about their vehicles. There's a reason my cars historically are all made by Toyota, Honda, BMW, VW, and even then sometimes the manufacturers get harder to spot things wrong.

> Tesla is nowhere near a company like Toyota or VW when it comes to even basic vehicle quality standards

Agreed. They're right about the same level as GM (as you mention later in your post). Though it depends on the model, too. The 3 has mostly been ironed out at this point, the Y still struggles a bit with weird build issues.

> Toyota, Honda, BMW, VW

That's a pretty wide range, to be honest, if reliability is the metric. Toyota is very boring and reliable, for sure. Honda is not anywhere near as reliable, they coast on the reputation afforded all the Japanese automakers. BMW and VW are ... well, German. VW in particular is probably not better than Tesla. If I wanted a reliable German car, I'd get a Porsche.

> The most common EVs on the road here are crossovers

I'd bet lunch the most common EV is still the Model 3, though the Model Y is probably gaining ground on it (the Y has a little bit better sales than the 3, but the 3 has been around longer).

I have the idea you're basically asking for an AWD Bolt, given the emphasis on small. I would like to see a dual motor Bolt too, but that'll never happen.

The ID.3 GTX will be dual motor:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/id3/355043/new-2023...

That looks very interesting to me. Unfortunately, it's almost guaranteed to not be sold in the US market, because it's a performance model.

Where are you driving where you need an AWD vehicle?

> Where are you driving where you need an AWD vehicle?

I live in the mountain suburbs West of Denver, Colorado, currently. AWD is not strictly required (I only have FWD and RWD vehicles today), however if I am buying a new car, it /will/ be AWD, I have no motivation other than getting AWD and EV to buy a new car vs maintaining and driving my existing vehicles. All my vehicles are >10 years old except my race car, and I want a new car to replace the oldest vehicle, hence my desire for AWD EVs.

Not OP, but the answer for me would be: at the bottom of a (surprisingly small) hill, in a place that gets snow once in a while.

AWD is more complex and most people don't need it (do you really?) so the engineering cost isn't spread out over more units sold.

For electric vehicles it's not that much more complex compared to traditional ICE vehicles.

I think most people who say they "need" AWD really just want AWD. Similarly for all the people who say they "need" trucks.

I think most poeple who say most people don't "need" AWD don't live in mountainous regions.

Lived in Alberta, and went hiking in the mountains with rental FWD cars all the time, often on terrible logging roads.

Your lived experience is valid but does not disprove the needs of others. As an example, there are times when the Washington State Department of Transportation declares that, due to weather conditions, only AWD vehicles with 3PMS tires may travel without chains. If someone has a disability which prevents them from installing tire chains, an AWD vehicle is the only method they can get through the pass. You can imagine the consequences for someone who lives on one side of the pass and works on the other.

These types of "Traction Laws" are super common where I live in Colorado, and include coverage for Interstate highways (I-70 through Vail Pass). The traction laws in most areas of Colorado state you must chain your tires unless you have AWD & Severe Snow Service rated all-season tires or you have snow tires (studless or studded are allowed).

I drive an FWD daily today with studless snow tires (Blizzaks), but would prefer an AWD vehicle with studless snow tires.

GP: You can say all you want about what /I/ "need", but you don't know my needs or my level of expertise. I hold a competition racing license from two sanctioning bodies, have driven in adverse conditions with all three common drive-train types (AWD, FWD, RWD), and live in a mountainous area outside of the city where inclement weather is common that create adverse road conditions. I think I am VERY well qualified to state exactly what I "need", and have the wallet to buy when companies are willing to make it.

You have to realize that, based on that description, you're a tiny rounding error on the total US domestic market.

You're the first person who seemed to think a comparison to the total US domestic market was relevant. The question was whether people "need" AWD. We're just providing examples. We're not even claiming it's an exhaustive list.

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