Volkswagen’s ID. 2ALL Is a $26,000 EV Hatchback You’d Want to Drive | Hacker News Reader

Volkswagen’s ID. 2ALL Is a $26,000 EV Hatchback You’d Want to Drive

thedrive.com

69 pointsPaulHoule119 comments

If this has the same software as my ID.4, that is not a hatchback you'd want to drive. Or, more precisely, you might want to drive it, as the narrowly defined driving experience is great, but you'll be endlessly frustrated by terrible software quality, ubiquitous bugs, obvious functionality not being there, and terrible interior design with touch-sensitive controls that make no sense.

If you think I'm exaggerating: the car is unable to deal with two drivers having different settings (doesn't recognize keys, settings get mixed up), the rear camera view does not come up about 30% of the time, and if you try closing two windows simultaneously, sometimes one will go up and the other down.

Their app is totally useless for anyone but the "main" driver (bizarre concept), for whom it is just buggy and shows wrong information and doesn't always do what you ask it to.

VW really dropped the ball on software quality.

They’re getting back real buttons on the steering wheel for the id 2.

Oh, I do have buttons on the steering wheel. But they are also touch-sensitive, and the touch also triggers various actions. It's a terrible design: you never know what will happen, the swipes are even inconsistent between button groups on the left and right sides of the steering wheel. You also activate things accidentally.

My take on touch-sensitive surfaces in cars is that they are great, but touch should never ever trigger any actions. It can be used for highlighting, displaying help, visual and tactile feedback, anything that helps me navigate but does not actually DO anything.

Anyway, that's not the main problem of the ID line, software quality is.

Apparently it's not just VW, it seems to be the second-class status of software vs real machines by German (auto) companies.

BMW seems to strike the right balance between software and tactile controls, including the ergonomically-placed I-Drive buttons and knobs.

I refuse to buy any car that replaces key physical controls with software. Of course, Tesla is off the list, but less because of design decisions and more because of Space Karen/Phoney Stark.

This looks great. Lately it seemed like all the new EVs being announced were bloated 6000lb SUVs pushing $60 or $70k+, so something that is reasonably sized and affordable with modern charging speeds was sorely needed.

Unlikely that it will come to the US or Canada unfortunately.

Why is that unlikely? I'd love one.

VW, BMW and Mercedes tend to avoid selling their lower end/“value” models in USA+Canada.

Sometimes they’ll sell lower-end/value models in Canada but not USA (e.g. VW city editions were sold in Canada, but not USA. BMW sold some smaller engine sizes into Canada, but not USA, but still not as small as available in Europe)

Tiny cars are just not very popular here. A few of the tuner guys or eco-friendly people like them but en-masse, they don't sell well at all

There are Americans who like small cars but dealers don’t want to sell them.

The Honda Fit is the ideal getaway car in Tompkins County (see ‘em everywhere) but after mine got totaled twice in six months I went looking for a new one and the dealer didn’t have any, had the excuse that the factory washed out in a flood, but there were 50 CR-Vs made in the same factory lined up.

Before the pandemic, when sales incentives were widespread, I’d see $8000 discounts on huge vehicles, none on small vehicles. Is that really a sign people want to buy large vehicles or that dealers want to sell them? How many people walk out with a larger vehicle than they need because dealers didn’t have the vehicle they wanted?

I think most people associate cost with volume (other things being ~equal). The notion of paying the same or more for something that is smaller is inherently a hard sell. In other places, there are significant advantages (either in taxes, fuel costs or convenience parking/going places) that counteract that to a lesser or greater degree, but those are largely missing in the US.

I like the way a small car handles. Even a Toyota Camry feels like it is carrying around a lot of excess weight.

Probably more like the SUVs had higher margins so they could market fake discounts/incentives.

Largely, an SUV and a sedan have the same expensive/complicated electronic/mechanical parts, but with stretched bodies so they can nearly double the price but definitely not double cost.

I have a Honda Fit, and in my (urban) area it's a super-common car. It's great! It's cheap, apparently pretty reliable, fits well into streets, and has a surprisingly large amount of cargo space when needed.

It's why it's annoying that Honda decided to stop selling them in the US 3 years ago: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33337398/honda-fit-discon...

Since they cite slow sales, it's probably a good lesson in how one's own situation can't be generalized too well. Based on what I see in my own area I'd have assumed they were selling like hotcakes, but presumably the suburban market is sufficiently larger and obsessed with vast SUVs to make that irrelevant.

Not just tiny cars, but somehow base US engines on the same car will be bigger than euro versions.

I never understood that since Euro driving generally has higher highway speed limits, predictable or non-existent speeding enforcement, more stop-and-go (when city driving) and more hills (ok, that can be subjective but very true for me).

Just like gun calibers, many Americans, myself included, still have a bit of bias from the hot rod culture of the 50s. Most are used to go to work and the mall but they like to "what if". We like things that go boom

Gas prices and taxes on the engine's displacement lead to the euro cars having smaller engines.

US drivers cover about twice the distance per capita, so at half the fuel cost, it’s a wash:

https://internationalcomparisons.org/environmental/transport...

Per-capita number counts everyone, not just drivers, I imagine. More people drive in the US so it's natural per-capita travel will be more. The "wash" part makes no sense to me. Somebody shopping for a car when gas is 8 dollars will consider fuel economy more than when gas is 3 dollars regardless of per-capita travel distance. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of car shoppers cannot even estimate this distance for their country.

Hatches aren't as popular here as they are in the EU for various reasons. Very common for US to not get them

https://jalopnik.com/a-simple-explanation-why-america-doesnt...

https://www.hotcars.com/these-are-the-best-hot-hatches-ameri...

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/cxmwk4/why_are_all_th...

I don’t believe it. It’s a line that is pushed by PR in the car industry but if anything, except for cops and car rental companies, American think buying a sedan is like putting their hand in a toilet.

Americans buy a lot of SUVs and they are all hatchbacks!

> Americans buy a lot of SUVs and they are all hatchbacks!

Hatchback / Hatch as a vehicle class doesn't mean "has a hatch on the back", as unintuitive as that may be. It's specifically a compact 5dr /car/. SUVs are not cars, they are trucks, crossovers are an abomination made by a Mini-Van and an SUV having a baby.

Compact 5DR cars are nearly non-existent in the US market.

Believe what you want, but we don't get the good ones.

Good breakdown of the actual differences hatch/suv/crossover/sportback

https://www.motorhappy.co.za/motorhappyblog/education/know-t...

I think it comes down to profit. Eliminate all the base models, keep moving bigger and more "luxury". You may sell fewer cars but the profit margins are fatter. Jack up an economy hatchback, bloat it few inches and slap in some heated seats and a big screen. Offer AWD, now it's a "crossover" you can charge $5000+ more for worse fuel economy.

Honda for example, drops the Fit hatchback for the HR-V crossover in the US. The HR-V has similar useable interior space, is built on the same platform as the Fit, but is lifted up and costs more.

The last year of the US Fit in 2020 started at $17,145 with destination. The current HR-V starts at $25,095!

I'm in the US and I'm sick of the focus on SUVs and crossover vehicles. Shopping for a Mazda3 recently and the company seems to be bending over backwards to persuade me to get an SUV instead.

I almost went with one of the new ones, got a GTI instead

Yeah I think it looks great too. I don't own a car, but back when I did, I had a Ford Fiesta that I loved. It wasn't unnecessarily large and could fit into smaller on-street parking spots that others simply couldn't. This EV looks great and similar.

I'm curious to see which will vanish first from the US market - the compact hatchback/CUV (compact meaning < ~15 feet long) or the sub-$25k vehicle.

My _guess_ is that a few 'premium' hatchbacks may stick around, but the sub-$25k vehicle will be a thing of the past within the next couple of years...

Sadly this vehicle has both of those marks against it. A shame as it really does look quite nice. Just means I'll have to stick with my homely, slow-charging Chevy Bolt EV for a few more years...

Yes, looks great, especially the platform. My first thought is that I'd want to use the platform to build a sportscar or track car...

After the debacle with having only touch "buttons" in the Mk8 GTI, it is refreshing to see that they are back to haptic buttons in the center console and steering wheel.

Interesting, in my MK8 GTI S I have all physical buttons for radio/hvac stuff, the screen is there but i dont need it while driving. Lower trim for the win :)

I didn't know this about the GTI, but it is my pet peeve with EVs. Tesla thought they'd do the "huge iPad in the middle" thing and every other manufacturer copycatted it.

I have driven a TM3 for a year now. For me it's way less annoying then sitting into a car with sea of buttons.

It has been one of those "it would seem annoying until you actually get to try it" experiences.

The funny thing is that what makes the touchscreen in the model 3 tolerable is that there are just enough tactile controls on the steering wheels to do the most common things. Then the voice interface, limited though it is, can handle some things as long as you're patient.

Yea. The important things physical:

- turn signals

- high/low beam (tho automation has gotten quite good)

- wipers (automation still not as good as the 2003 Saab I had)

- cruise control speed and distance

- PDR

- media volume, play/pause, previous/next

- voice control activation (voice control is pretty bad tho, even worse than siri I guess)

- window control for all windows

- hazards

- honk

Climate control is fine via screen, tho activating windshield max-defog could be valuable as a separate button (can be programmed as an always on shortcut tho).

The Tesla UI used to be amazing and had convinced me that touch UIs could compete with buttons in a car. So much was accessible with one tap.

But with each update, they UI gets objectively worse. They keep putting more and more things behind menus requiring multiple taps, making them incredibly annoying and dangerous to use while driving.

My biggest gripes:

- rear seat warmers require two nested menus to access. They aren't controllable from the main HVAC slide up, even though the seat diagram is still right there.

- mute/unmute turn-by-turn directions used to be a one click operation. Now it's hidden behind a hard-to-tap menu.

95% of the buttons I don't need to be haptic.

But please, let's have climate and volume as 2 physical dials. I promise, I'll be forever grateful, and I won't ever ask for anything more ever again. Just two dials.

Volume is physical. On the steering wheel. Climate is always on the same spot and always visible, so has never been an issue.

It works until you have to do something trivial like changing the windshield wiper mode, or enabling the seat warmer while driving.

Tesla proved that people would accept such an interface, and it massively improves Tesla's profit margins. The trick of passing off something as 'premium' while in fact cutting costs is a really good trick. One that I imagine the other manufacturers wish they could emulate.

You do get used to the touchscreen (I'm on my second Model 3), but I do look forward to a reassertion of sanity. Touchscreen makes sense for some things, not so much for others. I also look forward to the return of IR rain sensors, LOL.

Tesla at least knows how to write software, and compensate for lack of buttons with decent defaults and automation. Legacy manufacturers still have no clue. They can't even let go of the "Start engine" button in their cars.

The rest of the industry just destroyed the value. VW probably listened to Munro to save $0.05 on a couple of springs and wires, and ruined the whole lineup with creaky plasticky fake non-buttons that feel cheap and are annoying to use.

VW managed to marry all of the downsides of touchscreens with all of the clutter and inflexibility of buttons.

Yeah, to me, that's a real reason not to buy a Tesla (I mean, if you needed another one). For my entire driving live (nearly 40 years at this point) I've been able to learn how to manipulate the climate control and radio by feel, without taking my eyes off the road.

With a giant-ass feedback-free touchscreen, that's no longer possible. Hard pass.

It's nice to see a manufacturer that realizes an EV is a drivetrain, not a lifestyle

> The ID. 2all features real physical controls for volume and the HVAC system.

This gave me a chuckle. We've come full circle. Seriously though this looks great. I'd love to see a simple EV that's affordable.

I like it, but I won't buy it unless it's offered in AWD. I previously had an AWD Golf (R32) and it was awesome, an electric version of that at a $40-$50k price point would be very interesting to me. The biggest issue I have is where I live, I need an AWD vehicle, and all of the AWD EVs are huge and expensive. I want a nice, small, AWD, electric car, not a shitty crossover. Why is that so hard?

AWD is more complex and most people don't need it (do you really?) so the engineering cost isn't spread out over more units sold.

For electric vehicles it's not that much more complex compared to traditional ICE vehicles.

I think most people who say they "need" AWD really just want AWD. Similarly for all the people who say they "need" trucks.

I think most poeple who say most people don't "need" AWD don't live in mountainous regions.

Lived in Alberta, and went hiking in the mountains with rental FWD cars all the time, often on terrible logging roads.

Your lived experience is valid but does not disprove the needs of others. As an example, there are times when the Washington State Department of Transportation declares that, due to weather conditions, only AWD vehicles with 3PMS tires may travel without chains. If someone has a disability which prevents them from installing tire chains, an AWD vehicle is the only method they can get through the pass. You can imagine the consequences for someone who lives on one side of the pass and works on the other.

These types of "Traction Laws" are super common where I live in Colorado, and include coverage for Interstate highways (I-70 through Vail Pass). The traction laws in most areas of Colorado state you must chain your tires unless you have AWD & Severe Snow Service rated all-season tires or you have snow tires (studless or studded are allowed).

I drive an FWD daily today with studless snow tires (Blizzaks), but would prefer an AWD vehicle with studless snow tires.

GP: You can say all you want about what /I/ "need", but you don't know my needs or my level of expertise. I hold a competition racing license from two sanctioning bodies, have driven in adverse conditions with all three common drive-train types (AWD, FWD, RWD), and live in a mountainous area outside of the city where inclement weather is common that create adverse road conditions. I think I am VERY well qualified to state exactly what I "need", and have the wallet to buy when companies are willing to make it.

You have to realize that, based on that description, you're a tiny rounding error on the total US domestic market.

You're the first person who seemed to think a comparison to the total US domestic market was relevant. The question was whether people "need" AWD. We're just providing examples. We're not even claiming it's an exhaustive list.

> I want a nice, small, AWD, electric car, not a shitty crossover.

Perhaps the most common EV on the road is that. Though I suppose everyone has their own version of the 'small' goalposts.

Importantly, I'm in the US. The most common EVs on the road here are crossovers, the most common vehicles on dealer lots (EV or not) are crossovers and SUVs. Small cars are very hard to find, small cars with AWD nearly impossible. My daily driver vehicle (Scion iQ) is the smallest production car in the US in the last 20 years, no longer sold here, and was originally designed for the EU market in the "city car" segment, a segment which basically does not exist in the US.

Please point to a small, AWD, electric car I can buy in the US that isn't a Tesla (shit build quality).

> shit build quality

That's old news. If build quality is your only concern, I suggest you to check them again. They supposedly improved build quality significantly after initial rollout of M3. As a data point: my family owned and drove 6 different Teslas over last 3 years - we did not have build quality (or any other) issues with any of them. All recent horror stories you heard are because of current Tesla scale and media negative bias against the company - you don't hear similar stories from other manufacturers.

I live in a city that has a heavy amount of Teslas, I can literally visibly see quality defects in panel construction on many, if not most, of these cars I see on the road and in parking lots. Every Tesla I've been in via Uber has had obvious defects in these ways. Maybe things have improved, but Tesla is nowhere near a company like Toyota or VW when it comes to even basic vehicle quality standards. It makes sense, they're a much newer operation and having to relearn how to do things using different processes and methods.

This is something that personally annoys me to a high degree. All of my cars are paint-corrected and ceramic coated, not a single spider web or swirl to be found on them, and were initially bought new after I visually inspected them. FWIW, there are older car companies that have similar quality control issues (looking at you GM).

I consider this sort of stuff to be a bellwether. If the company can't get the basics right, I don't trust anything else they have to say about their vehicles. There's a reason my cars historically are all made by Toyota, Honda, BMW, VW, and even then sometimes the manufacturers get harder to spot things wrong.

> Tesla is nowhere near a company like Toyota or VW when it comes to even basic vehicle quality standards

Agreed. They're right about the same level as GM (as you mention later in your post). Though it depends on the model, too. The 3 has mostly been ironed out at this point, the Y still struggles a bit with weird build issues.

> Toyota, Honda, BMW, VW

That's a pretty wide range, to be honest, if reliability is the metric. Toyota is very boring and reliable, for sure. Honda is not anywhere near as reliable, they coast on the reputation afforded all the Japanese automakers. BMW and VW are ... well, German. VW in particular is probably not better than Tesla. If I wanted a reliable German car, I'd get a Porsche.

> The most common EVs on the road here are crossovers

I'd bet lunch the most common EV is still the Model 3, though the Model Y is probably gaining ground on it (the Y has a little bit better sales than the 3, but the 3 has been around longer).

I have the idea you're basically asking for an AWD Bolt, given the emphasis on small. I would like to see a dual motor Bolt too, but that'll never happen.

The ID.3 GTX will be dual motor:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/id3/355043/new-2023...

That looks very interesting to me. Unfortunately, it's almost guaranteed to not be sold in the US market, because it's a performance model.

I have an 1/8 mile driveway with a curve on a slant that terrifies all the delivery drivers. I’ve always owned an FF car with great snow tires (used to be Hakka R’s, now Blizzaks) and I never get in trouble. (Rear end slides, but who cares?)

People are always getting stuck w/ AWD cars with all-weather tires and we pull them out with our tractor.

The weight distribution of EVs is different so I don’t know how they handle. I haven’t pulled one out yet.

What is an FF car? Do you mean the Ferrari FF? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_FF

FF is "front front", i.e. engine in the front, drive wheels in the front. (Or: ~all regular every day cars.) FR is front-engine rear-wheel-drive (i.e. "sports" cars), etc.

VW ID.3 GTX is going to be AWD: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/id3/355043/new-2023...

Where are you driving where you need an AWD vehicle?

> Where are you driving where you need an AWD vehicle?

I live in the mountain suburbs West of Denver, Colorado, currently. AWD is not strictly required (I only have FWD and RWD vehicles today), however if I am buying a new car, it /will/ be AWD, I have no motivation other than getting AWD and EV to buy a new car vs maintaining and driving my existing vehicles. All my vehicles are >10 years old except my race car, and I want a new car to replace the oldest vehicle, hence my desire for AWD EVs.

Not OP, but the answer for me would be: at the bottom of a (surprisingly small) hill, in a place that gets snow once in a while.

Looks good but follows same routine as other announcements that didn’t pan out as expected:

As a concept, the ID. 2all isn't available for sale, but the company plans for a production version to be on sale in Europe by 2025. There's no word as to whether it's coming to the US, but with VW already dropping similar ICE models like the Golf, it's perhaps unlikely.

Horrible. LCD displays are ALWAYS too bright for driving at night. And, simultaneously, they are always getting washed out by glare during daylight. The only place they work is on sportbikes where the display isn't in your eyeline and so can afford to be bright.

If you want to buy one today, you could just look at the Chevy Bolt EUV. Same price-point, same range, and on dealer lots already.

I love my Chevy Bolt EUV. It handles great on the freeway and is very manageable in the city. I’ve had it since October 2022 and put about 6,000 miles on it. It has been flawless so far.

i wish we could get the EUV! it's way big enough for all our family needs. unfortunately, my wife has been conditioned to believe that an large SUV is what our family needs. gosh, advertisements are effective, either that or most people just have clausterphobia.

That's more of a CUV than a hatchback, no? It certainly looks bigger and taller.

Don't squint to hard and look at it or it will look exactly like an e-Golf!

They've indicated that they're likely to use the Golf name, so yes.

e-Golf's sold quite well, the main drawbacks were range and performance. This fixes both. Looks like a winner.

I have an early 2010's golf GTI with a manual transmission and plan to drive this thing until the wheels fall off haha.

I brought it in for yearly maintenance yesterday and asked about the existing VM "ID.4" lineup and the maintenance manager shook his head and said they're an absolute nightmare. The biggest issue supposedly is battery degradation and motor failures.

He went on to mention that the Audi line of EV's also has significant problems, specifically any time when drivers have to use any amount of AC during the hot summer. I also know one person who returned an Audi E-Tron after four months for an ICE equivalent Q3 due to range problems and quirks.

> The biggest issue supposedly is battery degradation

Really hard to know about about this after... two years? Sounds like someone who knows how much less maintenance there is to do on a EV :)

Yes, asking the advice of somebody whose job is threatened by the product you're asking about is unlikely to get you an unbiased opinion.

I've had mine for two years and the range estimate from the guessometer has not really changed. Range divide by battery fraction with climate off. I don't quick charge.

I did have a coolant pump fail which got fixed under warranty.

Not a Golf. Shorter body, cheap torsion beam rear suspension instead of multilink. This is an e-Polo.

I would argue this is more similar to the Polo with the ID.3 being the EV equivalent of the Golf.

Is anyone trying to make a car with open-source components/software? I'd like to have a car I can trust to behave predictably without needing a $1M security audit.

Mods: the HN headline is missing the word "concept" from the original article's headline which is IMO the most important part.

It is also missing Acutally.

I know I want to _acutally_ drive that thing. All misspelliinngs aside, it does seem like a reasonable car at a reasonable price.

VW will sell this car at $26K the same way Tesla sold the Model 3 at $30k.

Its a concept, at least Model 3 came out.

So this is always subjective but it can't just be me?

- design looks like a toy car from a Pixar movie

- interior black/blue LEDs is still the same tired cheap SF series look that is only an inch away from a gamer accessory

Probably just you, it just looks like a Polo to me.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35174689 also

The title is a bit bombastic but it's also not wrong! That vehicle looks like it's moving in all the right directions, so to speak.

It remains to be seen if it is going to be available for this price. It would not surprise that this will climb to 30-35k USD in the end.

Who do they have naming these things, and is there some other job they could give them instead?

A "concept" with a "target" price of 26k. More vapourware.

It’s another scam from VW. Why? VW Up electric is more expensive than ID.2 being one size smaller. There is Dacia Spring, basically rebadged electric vehicle from China going for 23k right now. There is no way for VW to build anything for <€25k. Vaporware.

The current golf starts at €26k. They have optimized it for decades and have a smooth running factory/supply chain.

I also don't see how the equivalent EV could be cheaper by 2025.

The Dacia Spring looks nice. If only there was option to have a larger battery.

Be careful, this car has bad crash test results: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/spring/44197

Is that $26K in todays money or adjusted for inflation in 2025.

Please tell me more about 2025 and inflation.

4% atleast IMHO. I'm guessing 26K today will be 28K atleast in 2025.

IMO saving money relative to a Tesla Model 3 at the expense of not purchasing the best drivetrain and battery technology available at time of purchase is never worth it. I'd easily increase my monthly payment by $100 to reach to the $35k range of a base Tesla Model 3.

Drive train, battery and software are the core tenants of what defines the value of an electric car - I think we're going to see the resale value of electric cars perform significantly worse than even a 20yr old Toyota Camry with 100k miles on it. The biggest risk with EV's especially from companies without a significant history of producing them is support completely timing out with vehicles less than 5yrs old. I dislike Louis Rossman but he's covered some GM Ev's that already are basically only supported by third party suppliers without any software support, it's not a rosy looking glimpse at the future [0].

I'm a person who would likely buy the US equivalent of the Honda e:Hev, a hybrid with a larger battery capable of 50+ mpg and I'm not necessarily a fan of Tesla - but if I'm going to drop five figures on a car it's going to be the best tech not something VW Group cooked up that's candidly years behind what Tesla is currently working with.

If you disagree with me, I suggest watching Sandy Munro's content on reverse engineering the quality of Tesla batteries, drivetrain and production methods. He doesn't cut elon slack and you should see how he tore apart the quality of the Mustang EV. [1]

0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8vHkUhV6Vc

1 - https://www.youtube.com/c/MunroLive

Volkswagen actually makes replacement parts and has a good repair network, which is probably going to be more helpful over the long term than an extra 15 horsepower from a swankier electric motor.

Nonsense. Go on the audi forums and look at all the a3 e-tron owners who have nearly dead batteries who can't get them replaced under warranty without threat of legal action.

I'm not purchasing the Tesla for more horsepower, I just want the best drivetrain tech with the most time on the road. Tesla delivers that.

I own both a VW/Audi EV (e-tron) and a Tesla. The dealer support for the Audi is extremely pitiful, the software in the car in the app is buggy and unreliable, and that is to say nothing of how bad the associated app is. The annual cost for the advanced features is absurd. The long range charging network is a disaster. I could go on.

I am by no means a Tesla fanboy, and Tesla has its own faults, specifically around build quality on the Model 3 (though the S/X are quite nice.) But it's a better EV in every way.

Yes! Exactly this! I also know an owner of an E-tron SUV who had abysmal experiences with the dealer and well, the drivetrain / engineering of the e-tron itself.

I don't really like Elon, and I think Tesla interior quality is sub-par even to my VW but if I had to buy an EV it would be a Tesla. Full stop.

I don't understand who's downvoting this? I'm objectively NOT a fan of Tesla, admit they have some faults but because I'm buying based on hard tech that's clearly better (some would argue with better environmental outcomes) they're not okay with my opinion?

Because there's now a hundred alternatives. It's not just an 'etron'. From Kia EV6 to Hyuandai ioniq 5 and 6 to BMW iX, BMW i4, i7, Mercedes EQA, EQB, EQC, EQE, EQS to Genesis GV60 to Kona, Nissan Leaf, Audi eTron GT, Porsche Taycan, VW ID3, ID Buzz, ID4, ID5, soon ID7, Audi Q4/Q4 Sportback eTron, Ford Mustang, Ford F150 Lightning, Rivian R1T, R1S, Lucid Air, BYD Atto 3, BYD Dolphin, BYD Seal, Xpeng P7, G9, NIO ET7, ES8, EP9, Ora Funky Cat, Mini EV (soon the better new EV), smart #1, Hummer EV, Polestar 2, soon 3, Volvo C40 recharge, XC40, MG ZS, MG4, Skoda Enyaq, Cupra, etc etc etc I can't remember more right now but I am sure there's at least twice as many.

It's not just "oh etron is bad, now there is only Tesla. Full stop"

For US buyers half of your list are VW/Audi/Porsche products which have the same underlying software issues. I will admit the Taycan is the best driving car, EV or otherwise I have ever driven.

The Ford Products are promising but have been majorly hamstrung by dealers asking for astronimal markups. I had a Polestar as a rental car and it was great, and the BMW and Mercedes EVs are wonderful too. BUT they're all stuck with a very unreliable charging network and dealers are awful middlemen for now.

Tesla is opening the charging network so...you are no longer stuck with unreliable charging network.

Yeah now it's going to be a reliable charging network with hour-long lines to get a spot.

I suggest you go drive some EVs.

Tesla is an awful car, I rented one before I bought it...and decided against it.

I have driven Model Y, VW ID4, and Kia EV6.

Tesla Model Y cons:

- auto wipers do not work properly, other manufacturers are using sensors, Tesla is using cameras

- phantom braking still an issue

- ride quality much worse than competitors, I drove race cars that had better suspension, I was in disbelief how poor the suspension was

- build quality still behind legacy car manufacturers

- removal of ultra sonic sensors, because Tesla Vision better, coming soon......it has been 5 months now?

- FSD is a $15k scam and should not be allowed on public streets

- yoke, Tesla got it wrong while Toyota has got the yoke right (https://jalopnik.com/how-lexus-got-the-yoke-right-unlike-tes...)

-lack of aftermarket parts and support

-lack of 3rd party mechanics

-poor service

-Tesla center would not return emails and calls about extended test drive, I can only imagine how service is like

- No blind detection sensors? What is this 2001?

Pros:

- Charging network, with a caveat as it is actually quite expensive, if you can't charge at home you might not even save any money vs something like a hybrid

Sandy Munro is a tesla shill. He literally covers Tesla share holder meetings and talks about all "hidden" messages.

Also

> Tesla Model Y cons:

Does not support Android Auto or Apple CarPlay.

I test drove a model 3 last week - markedly better than the one I test drove last year.

Yeah, the yoke sucks... I'll opt for the wheel.

I tried out an audi EV yesterday - was not impressed, felt like I was driving on balloons.

Tesla flaming here is wild - I've already said I'm not really a fan I just want a car with solid drivetrain.

How anything I have said is WILD?

I have literally stated true facts. I was excited for the model Y based on the internet hype, just to be insanely disappointed.

I've test driven a Model 3 and Model Y, they are the cheapest-feeling cars I've ever been in.

Both driving them and being inside them as a passenger, the quality and finish are that I'd expect from an extreme budget car, like an early-2000's Kia. I would much sooner trust any established brand over Tesla, even other American makers with their own reliability and quality issues.

I don't have any experience owning them, so I can't speak to the numerous reported issues with repairs and reliability, other than to say I've seen others complain about them ad-nauseum. After seeing stories about people fighting for months and eventually having to beg Elon Musk for help over Twitter, I would not want to be stuck with one. Even if the ID.2ALL has issues, I do have far more confidence that a company like VW would do repairs and maintenance in a timely manner.

As someone who owns a Model 3 and a Bolt, I have to say that the reason I got the Model 3 was the supercharger network. And Tesla just eliminated that advantage themselves. Next EV won't be a Tesla. Too many misfeatures or missing features.

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