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Comment by senttoschool | Hacker News Reader

US is a war machine, can drum up support to invade any country even if they're lies, and in the last 300 years, it's hard to find a country that has abused more human rights. The birth of the US coincided with a genocide of native Americans, wars for more land, slavery of an entire people.

And yet, the US actually has allies. After all the crap the US has done, it still has allies. What? Why?

Oh, because it's all about economics and power.

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And yet, the US actually has allies. After all the crap the US has done, it still has allies. What? Why?

Oh, because it's all about economics and power.

Interesting thesis. At the same time, China has few allies. Does that mean China has a poor economy and little power?

Interesting thesis. At the same time, China has few allies. Does that mean China has a poor economy and little power?

Maybe it's news to you but China has been poor for nearly 150+ years. In the past, China had the highest GDP in the world. But the opium trade, western wars, caused it to become as poor as it did. It's only in the last 10 years or so that China's economy has been big enough to garner more allies.

Even so, maybe propaganda has convinced you that China has no allies? For example, 37 countries signed a letter supporting China's anti-domestic terrorism tactics in Xinjiang.

In the early 20th century the US was opposed to European colonialism in China, opposed to the Japanese invasion of China. And opposed to the Communist takeover of China. The US is also opposed to Xi's dictatorship an threats towards Taiwan. And the Uyghur genocide.

So China does have a friend in the US. But Xi doesn't.

It's not news to some of us.

Part of that is that the last imperial dynasty to rule China was not Chinese, but ethnically Manchurian. A lot of problems came from that. Granted, that does not make it okay that the West helped carve them up. But a lot of their external issues in the past few centuries have internal root.

If the Han and the Manchurians could not get along, how is that the West's fault?

WRT "terrorism" in Xinjiang: I think non-Han minorities might have a different opinion than the official Beijing line.

> and in the last 300 years, it's hard to find a country that has abused more human rights.

Surely, between:

- The Armenian Genocide

- The Holocaust

- The Holdomor

- Pogroms

- Apartheid regimes

- Purges of the Bourgeoisie

- One Child Policy

I find it hard to think that the US (With it's many, many fuck-ups) is the only, let alone the -worst- guilty party in the last 100 years.

O wait, if we only counted the last 100 years the 'great leap forward' would suddenly look a lot less great... wouldn't it?

I find it hard to think that the US (With it's many, many fuck-ups) is the only, let alone the -worst- guilty party in the last 100 years.

Slavery and native American genocides are pretty bad - as well as the countless countries US has invaded/bombed.

But anyways, are we trying to estimate which country has done more bad in the last 300 years? China or US? And are you willing to become more pro-China if we conclude that the US has done more bad?

>>Slavery and native American genocides are pretty bad

Any student of history would understand that China colonizing the north american continent would have been much much worse for Native Americans. There currently are slaves in China right now.

I think we can all agree that slavery is bad.

Hopefully it will be ended in North America sometime soon (fingers crossed).

‘Slavery by any name is wrong’: the push to end forced labor in prisons

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/27/slavery-loop...

Slavery and the U.S. Prison System

https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/06/05/2021/slavery-...

Contemporary slavery in the United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery_in_the_Un...

Oh wow. Worse than the complete annihilation of an entire large continent of people?

Are we now blaming China for genocide of Native Americans too?

No, they are pointing out that for all of your bolstering, China today is doing things that the global purview thinks are far worse than what the US is doing, again, today.

Please remember that comments on HN are meant to be in good faith towards the discussion of the article, and regardless of any factual inconsistencies that may or may not be present in your statements, they are off topic and potentially trolling.

The US also initiated many famines. For instance, there was one in 2020 that US policy contributed to.

The US is a net food exporter. What you are saying is propaganda, not fact. The US is the largest food-Aid donator. The US has shipped millions of pounds of food around the world to feed people… for free. We are talking billions a year in spending.

https://www.wfpusa.org/articles/1-millionth-ton-american-whe...

You're talking about the past. The US isn't currently carpet bombing Vietnam, it isn't currently allowing slavery.

China, currently in 2023, is all the things the above poster says it is. A sabre rattling dictatorship that is intentionally oppressing its minorities. Chinese people are awesome but the Chinese state can go to hell.

This isn't to excuse Trump's sinophobia. He can go to hell too.

Chinese people are awesome but the Chinese state can go to hell.

Chinese people support the CCP. Most Chinese citizens are pro-CCP. So if you have a negative view of the CCP, then you should have a negative view of Chinese too.

But you're probably wondering why Chinese people support the CCP? It's because the CCP improved the lives of 1.4 billion people and is still improving their lives. GDP per capita went from $317 in 1990 to $12,000+ in 2022. And why would they overthrow the CCP now? Makes no sense.

But if the CCP needs to be overthrown and is no longer working for Chinese people, they will overthrow it. Chinese people have been overthrowing governments for millenniums.

> So if you have a negative view of the CCP, then you should have a negative view of Chinese too.

I disagree with the (admittedly large) subset of Chinese people who support the CCP, but me having a negative view of them as people doesn't follow from that.

> It's because the CCP improved the lives of 1.4 billion people and is still improving their lives. GDP per capita went from $317 in 1990 to $12,000+ in 2022. And why would they overthrow the CCP now?

I didn't claim that the CCP did nothing good and was all bad. There's clearly far worse alternatives than the CCP. Also, it's not accurate to attribute all of China's current success to the current CCP. A lot of it was the seeds planted thanks to the economic liberalization in the preceding few decades when the CCP was more liberal than it is today.

> But if the CCP needs to be overthrown and is no longer working for Chinese people, they will overthrow it.

Authoritarian states create mechanisms that make them difficult to overthrow.

>I disagree with the (admittedly large) subset of Chinese people who support the CCP, but me having a negative view of them as people doesn't follow from that.

That's funny. Chinese people support CCP. Chinese people want CCP to stay in power. CCP is made of Chinese people, and reflects quite a bit of Chinese culture. You want the CCP to go to hell. But you think Chinese people are awesome.

Are you just trying to be politically correct? It's ok to say you hate Chinese people and Chinese culture.

Chinese people are brought up in an environment that tells them to support the CCP and where vocal dissent is punished. Their centrally controlled media ecosystem is rigged against them being able to think and speak clearly on this issue. They have been the primary victims of the CCP since its inception. Also, Chinese people aren't a monolith. If you sorted Chinese people by how jingoistic they are I would probably dislike the top 10-20% or so on that basis but that doesn't generalize to every Chinese person, even those that tow the socially expected line of "supporting" the CCP.

I’ve lived in China and have friends there. People there aren’t told to love the CCP. They all have gripes about it like any people would have for their government. It’s not like North Korea. They do not want to overthrow it because the country is stable and their lives are improving.

You underestimate the power the people have over the government. When Chinese are pissed off, they will go on the streets and protest and demand changes. Just check the riots over banks and real estate there recently.

And why does the CCP want Taiwan back? It’s because their people demand Taiwan back.

I find it hilarious when people say they love Chinese people but hate the CCP. Either they’re disingenuous because they dislike both or they don’t understand China.

The CCP will allow a certain level of protest as a release valve but to extend that to the claim that the people can just casually "overthrow" an authoritarian state when push comes to shove is not right. If it reached a boiling point the tanks would roll out and the protesters would be killed or imprisoned.

> I’ve lived in China and have friends there. People there aren’t told to love the CCP.

Again, managed dissent. The real dissenters are in prison or worse.

> It’s not like North Korea.

I already said there's worse alternatives than the CCP. That doesn't absolve it from being an authoritarian dictatorship.

> I find it hilarious when people say they love Chinese people but hate the CCP. Either they’re disingenuous because they dislike both or they don’t understand China.

I already explained this to you, so either you are being disingenuous or you are determined to have a monologue. I am ending it here because this is a low value conversation.

Have you ever been to China? Where do you get your news source?

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