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I've always found the way the term "victim blaming" is usually used to be unhelpful. For example when you recommend someone lock their doors, someone might object and accuse you of victim blaming - because you have the right to leave your door unlocked and not be victimized. You may have that right in a perfectly just world, but in this world people don't respect that right, so it's good to protect yourself.

Eh I think there's balance. On one hand I do certain things like cross the road or not go to certain areas at certain times, things we shouldn't _have_ to do.

And I think the victim blaming thing is less "you didn't follow common sense" and more "this happened to you because you asked for it". It basically boils down to: yes, people should follow common sense, but it's not their fault that bad people are out there - it's all of our faults in society, and we should get better at figuring out how to prevent these things happening at all.

Ie rather than just dismissing an area as a "bad place to go at night", we should probably try to address why it is so, and fix it.

Victim blaming does NOT just happen with SA cases. I know someone that was mugged in a small town. When he reported to the police it was recommended for him not to file an official report, because they would be forced to arrest him for underage drinking.

P.S. Arrest doesn't mean taken away in cuffs, so it was probably gonna be a ticket. Still, this is utterly ridiculous.

It's interesting you mention SA cases. I'm not proud to admit it but prior to this experience I was firmly in the camp of "Of COURSE you report it, go to the police, testify, etc". In my incident even though the responding officers were terrible, racist, victim blaming, etc they filed what I'm sure was a mandatory report. I received a call (voicemail) from a detective about a week later. I was still having nightmares and pretty messed up at that point. I never even called them back - I just wanted to move on and after the initial experience with the police I didn't even want to think about how much worse it could get. I felt (and still feel) very violated and a bit traumatized by the experience. I can't even remotely imagine how much more violated I would feel if it was a SA.

The most positive outcome of this experience was the 180 in my understanding of these types of violations and the empathy I acquired. Again, I'm not proud to admit it and I'm still a little bothered it took something happening to me personally to better understand this.

While we're on the topic of empathy I also better understand poverty. The perpetrators of this incident risked kidnapping, armed robbery, who knows what charges with what I'm sure would be considerable amounts of jail time - for the $100 I had in my pocket and $100 (or whatever) they got from selling my locked iPhone to part out (after being marked stolen with iCloud it pinged once several months later - from China IIRC). I couldn't imagine risking going to jail for $100,000 let alone $100. Poverty and life circumstances create a level of desperation I can't fathom.

It's worth pointing out that many people go through these experiences and never do anything like that. There's homeless drug addicts that would commit crimes, but never hold someone up at gunpoint... maybe break into a house and run away when there's an intruder, and feel very guilty.

At risk of sounding like a conservative (I don't consider myself one), greed, as well as a culture of violence, and wanting to be tough come into play. Lots of working stiffs out there, predominately POCs (due to inequality), will simply work the shit job and roll with the punches... as I understand, these people often suffer more than anyone, because despite keeping it on the straight an narrow, they are usually the most likely to be victimized.

That said, I see it this way: some people are predisposed to crime. Think of it like a genetic thing (in some cases probably it is). Under harsh conditions these people are far more likely to turn to extremism, and crime.

You kinda had it figured out. What was the point of going through all that for $100? It probably isn't even the best risk / reward ratio... some people just don't want to do "sneak crimes". Go to a prison and I bet some of the inmates say it themselves.

That said, the reality of living in a world stacked against you weighs on people, and working degrading jobs and dealing with bigotry must be exhausting and infuriating. To some the extreme fridges of society, and violence, feel more dignifying than playing a rigged game, and being insulted all along the way.

Another piece of the puzzle to add to what you've said, is the feeling of helplessness/hopelessness that can get locked in at a young age. When I was growing up, there were a lot of kids that didn't view their future with any kind of optimism. So really, what difference does it make if they go to jail for selling drugs, armed robbery, running from the cops, etc. That's pretty much how I viewed things, except instead of leading a life of crime I just wanted to do something much more drastic. Of course, I was super young when that viewpoint permeated my thought process, so that viewpoint is still there but not to the same extreme.

It's a lot more convincing as a preteen (or even younger), seeing your friend's friends and family members making "a living" from crime, and then looking at your life with what seems like no opportunity or a respectable future.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I kinda glossed over that, but that’s part of the poor conditions I mentioned.

You will certainly feel helplessness from time to time. Some people cope worse than others… I could see myself going that route under different conditions.

What are SA cases?

If you don't mind sharing, what was the reason to get in the car with them to drive? Were you planning to head out to an event like a hike or something that you had arranged online, but hadn't known the people ahead of?

I wish it was anywhere near that "respectable".

I was visiting a college town for an away football game. This was the night before the game and some of my friends and I went out. I met these two guys at a college bar my friends and I went to. My friends were going back to our hotel but these guys (who we had all met maybe an hour before) had invited me to a party. It was still fairly early and I thought "Neat, this will be a different and interesting experience". Unfortunately it was - much more than I had imagined.

It's likely that if the circumstances were closer to what you've described the police would have taken me more seriously.

I should also probably add that this was in a period of my life where I was unknowingly experiencing untreated bipolar disorder. If you're not familiar with manic or even hypomanic episodes your risk assessment can be very warped. That was a large component of this situation.

I guess in the scheme of "things that happen in a college town," being invited to another party from a public bar with people you just met there doesn't seem like a particularly unusual thing to take part in either. It being a college town, and stemming from a bar, does seem like it may have aided in the inappropriate response from the police, unfortunately. I wonder how many college kids end up in a similar situation, where in most cases the police likely won't even be able to do anything to follow up. A friend's brother had a similar experience, having been approached at a gas station for help and ultimately being beaten up and mugged. Aside from also being treated like a drug addict (which he was, to be fair), he was told they they couldn't/wouldn't do anything about it anyway since they had no way of knowing the people involved.

That's the other side - when describing the situation to the incredulous officers my take was (essentially) "The beginning of this scenario likely happens multiple times every single day in this city and it's not about drugs or other criminality". It's a fairly standard situation by college town standards, not some fantastical story or some other scenario that screams "a bad guy ripped off another bad guy". At one point they even said "we just don't understand why you would get in a car with people you just met". It was clear to me the subtext there was "why would you trust /those/ people". Again, sadly, it was clear race was a factor.

In my situation the bar was a corporate national chain in the downtown center with locations in most college towns (at least in my experience). They likely had video surveillance from every angle. The perpetrators may have even paid by credit card, been already known to others there, possibly even the staff, etc. Compared to the situation your friend's brother experienced it seems like there's a decent chance my assailants could be caught. As I said I'd been talking to them for an hour, left with them, etc. Video wouldn't be tough to get.

I often wonder if it was a one-off crime of opportunity or some MO/pattern of theirs. No way to know I suppose but given my case they certainly wouldn't have any reason not to do it again.

Ouch, in a national chain, potential video, potential payment trail... it's too bad that (in my admittedly limited experience), these sorts of things are almost never pursued, because to your point - there's no disincentive to the perpetrators to stop.

Well let’s remember, after my initial experience with the police I didn’t even bother to return the call from the detective who “followed up”. Not having the cooperation of the victim is a guarantee nothing will come of it. Perversely it also probably reinforced the attitude the officers demonstrated - “Knew it, this guy was doing something shady and finally realized he doesn’t want to get in trouble”.

I feel bad that my inability to deal with this could contribute to it happening to someone else. But, certainly at that time, I just couldn’t bring myself to even talk about it.

Oddly, years later, I can talk about it on HN and think nothing of it. Occasionally my friends will have me tell the story to someone else and we’ll all laugh about it (occasionally to the horror of anyone hearing it for the first time).

It’s been a very strange experience.

> Occasionally my friends will have me tell the story to someone else and we’ll all laugh about it (occasionally to the horror of anyone hearing it for the first time).

"Comedy is tragedy plus time."

Just want to say that it's not your fault. I've gone unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people many times. A college town party being one of the most representative examples. I've never had anything close to that happen to me. I think you were just extremely unlucky. I'm sorry you were robbed in such a horrific way and I'm sorry for how the police treated you.

I'm a pretty big introvert, and even I would probably have at least considered going with them to a party. And one of my reasons would not have been "they might try to rob me". So I think you're putting far too much blame on yourself.