‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)
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As I was about to cross the highway a car come sliding around the bend more or less sideways. I stopped and watched it slide past. I could tell it was going to miss me by 10 feet or more, but afterward I couldn't stop thinking: What if it had been headed towards me? Could I have gotten out of the way in time? What if I'd slipped? I couldn't believe how close I might have come to dying without even thinking about it. I'll never get out of the car in a storm again, at least not without thinking very carefully about the situation first.
My other near miss experience was staying at a bread-and-breakfast farmhouse in Portugal. I had taken a shower, and was standing in front of the bathroom mirror, when I noticed the light above the mirror was crooked. It was one of those swiveling can fixtures, so I reached up to adjust it. I knew it wouldn't be hot since I'd just turned it on, so I grabbed it firmly and then asked myself why it was vibrating. And for that matter why was my whole arm vibrating? When I realized I was being shocked I was able to let go and spent 20 minutes pacing around my room making sure I wasn't dead. You really can't do worse than standing barefoot, soaking wet, on a stone floor, and grabbing a live fixture, can you?
If anyone would like to explain why that didn't kill me I'm all ears.
I've had a similar experience, where (at the age of about 10) I touched an exposed 120v AC wire on a running water pump, while standing in a muddy field, and I only got a mild vibrating feeling from it.
Depends on how it is wired. Sometimes lights are wired so that the switch comes before the fixture, sometimes after. One of several reasons you should always turn power off at the breaker when fiddling with the wiring, instead of assuming it won't be hot if the switch is off.
[hot wire]---[switch]---[load]---.
|
[neutral wire]-------------------+
|
[person]
|
[ground]
In this situation would the current "prefer" to go to neutral or to ground?Edit: Or this one...
[neutral wire]---[load]---[switch]---.
|
[hot wire]---------------------------+
|
[person]
|
[ground]
...where "load" is like a 20 watt LED bulb or something.the parallel resistance is lower
And once you've turned the power off, test wit with a non-contact voltage detector. A brand name one that's actually been built to UL/CE standards and is subject to actual recalls/etc is under $30. It's a straightforward, pretty much foolproof way to make sure you don't get yourself shocked.
A multimeter is, in theory, a fine alternative but in practice is not. The non-contact detector detects the presence of the fluctuating magnetic field from A/C. A multimeter measures the difference in potential between two points. If you were to, say, have 120V on from same phase on both hot and neutral in an outlet, it would read 0V. If, say, the ground were also not connected then you'd also get 0V testing either against ground. By all accounts there is no voltage in the plug. If, say, each side of the plug were on a different breaker you might think you'd killed the power while it's still live. (Yes, this is based on a true story.) The only way to avoid this is to make sure you have a known good ground to test against. Whereas a non-contact voltage detector immediately lights up like a christmas tree telling you this situation is all sorts of fucked up.
commonly the neutral wire has something like 20vac rms on it for a variety of reasons
if you are ungrounded (due to rubber boots or whatever) your body is in series with your capacitance to ground, and that will commonly give you just a mild vibrating feeling or nothing at all
this 'path of least resistance' thing can be pretty misleading, because if you have two resistors in parallel, the least resistance is always the parallel resistance (i.e. current through both resistors in inverse proportion to their resistances) and not just one resistor or the other
Electricity doesn't take the path of least resistance. It takes all paths. Think of it as a resistor network:
(+)---[R1]----[R2]-----(-)
\--[R3]--/
R2 and R3 are parallel. R2 is you, R3 is the "path of least resistance".If R1 is sufficiently high, e.g. the light was off but the switch interrupted the neutral side, and you touched the neutral side (i.e. the lamp was between mains and you), then the "path of least resistance" matters: R1 and the parallel set of R2/R3 form a voltage divider, and the smaller the combined resistance of the right part is, the lower the voltage across you.
That voltage is all that matters. If R1 is small enough to be insignificant, e.g. because you're touching mains and R3 isn't a short to ground, the voltage across you will be mains voltage.
Would the wetness have actually helped? Why go through all that higher resistance human flesh when the current can go straight to ground via the electrolyte solution that's around you instead?
Skin is also hydrophobic. You're unlikely to have a complete circuit with no breaks on the outside of your body, unless you're currently standing in the shower.
My guess would be not enough of the main current was passing across your heart to kill you? I didn't think mains electricity was necessary powerful enough to kill people in most scenarios, just that it is powerful enough to do it in an unlucky few. I'd also imagine the floor wasn't really conducting to earth.
My guess is that it went only through the one hand, and the sensation in the arm is just a side effect.
And that came from the "ground" pin of an outlet! Except that the building (in a third-world country that I'll leave unnamed here) hadn't been wired correctly, as I learned the hard way.
Though if there's one thing we've learned from the article, there will be plenty of people waiting in the wings of the Intenet to sputter "Karma!" and "Darwin!" when you do.
Aside, if you ever feel like saying that sort of thing, take an idea, principal, or religious icon that has a deep meaning to you, or in the latter case, someone whose work you think was influential and great. Fix that image in your mind, think "serves you right, asshole", and scream the word or the name out at the top of your lungs. Then reflect on how fucking stupid that was.
Uh...
That's fucking stupid because I presumably picked an idea or person that's completely unrelated to the concept of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". Also because I'm at the top of my lungs. If I called out something like "Midgley'd!" it wouldn't share those reasons for being fucking stupid at all.
I've had a few mains shocks before as well, a fair few years ago, and what saved me was live and neutral touched the same hand. I now have an inductance tester I use first, then follow up with multimeter and only THEN do I start whatever I'm doing.
I was fine. The driver was some kid that stole their parents car. The kid seemed uninjured. The parents were I guess chasing them in another car as they arrived only a few seconds after the wreck.
The lesson here is this: lightning strikes twice (frustratingly, the usual idiom is as wrong as can be). In other words, if you observe an outcome and have no other data whatsoever about the conditions that produced that outcome, it is safe to assume that the conditions continue to exist to allow the outcome to happen again.
In this case, the existence of a car that has spun out around a curve is the clue that cars will continue to spin out along that curve.
Whatever caused the accident is just as likely to cause another car to go in, ie oil or coolant on track, or even debris from the current incident.
Same applies on the roads I guess, especially in poor conditions.
Also, in confrontations where you are outnumbered, keep one of the suspects between you and the rest. Discourages anybody taking a shot at you when their friend/accomplice is in the line of fire.
https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/amp/news/article/can-li...
> Believe it or not, this long-held myth is far from the truth. While the odds of being struck by lightning are low, the chances of lightning striking the same place twice are high. Lightning can, and often will, hit the same spot multiple times.
That is, seeing the strike shows that things are primed at the moment. Seeing a singed tree is not. (That make sense?)
That said, I can see how that still fits the idea.
If you observe an extremely unlikely event, you should update your Bayesian prior about how likely that event is.
Close in thought to each other, but still different things. Granted, I think your point still fully holds. There is a decay function for the likelihood of repeating events. And if you don't have evidence that what you are looking at is old, much safer to assume it is not and that the circumstances are still primed for it to happen again.
Lightning will not strike a TREE again because usually it destroys the tree in some way, changing it's height. But for many other things (buildings, mountains, etc), lightning will happily strike it over and over again.
Is the car in a ditch for a truly unlikely reason, or there a hidden lightning rod there? Perhaps you shouldn't assume a seemingly unlikely event won't happen again.
I was out on pescadero creek road and saw a guy had wrapped his 911 turbo around a tree. This particular bend would send you off a hillside if not for the trees. I slowed not just to gawk at the loss of a great car or to have sympathy for a man who just lost a valuable asset but cause I was wondering, “how did he manage that? Is something wrong with the road?” Didn’t notice anything wrong with the road but I took it slow anyway.
He probably just took the corner too hot. Waved a happy wave to him as I finished the turn slowly then revved back up to the usual fun speeds to enjoy the remaining 150 bends.
In a lab, sure. In reality you need a lot of amps going into the body to get enough amps across the heart to screw with it. Defibrillators wouldn't be chock full of capacitors if that wasn't the case.
Constantly repeating these sorts of misleading DARE-esque talking points is why nobody takes what the safety preachers have to say seriously.
People find out through life experience that smoking while filling gas, a couple amps from arm to arm, working under suspended loads, side rolling big cylinders long distances, using ladders on less than perfect surfaces and other little stuff like that isn't the instant death and dismemberment that they were told it was supposed to be and that throws doubt at everything else.
You can't lie to people 50% of the time even if it's "for their own good" and expect them to believe the other 50% of stuff you say. Electricity and many other things are sufficiently dangerous that you shouldn't need to lie.
Humans are notoriously bad at evaluating probabilities and expected outcomes in probabilistic scenarios, especially in when one possible outcome is catastrophic with low probability. Otherwise you wouldn't see so many reckless distracted drivers on the road.
You are advocating for a public communication strategy that only makes sense in some kind of rationalist fantasy world, but not in the real world.
It's not some conspiracy to infantilize the public, it's just good sense to not do dangerous stuff and tempt fate.
Yes, pretty much. 400 people are electrocuted in the US every year, usually in industrial situations. Thousands of people will get shocked today. The odds of a heart problem are low enough that suggesting people should be terrified of light sockets because it may stop their heart is just fearmongering, and reduces the effectiveness of other safety-related communication. This is like California proudly proclaiming that everything causes cancer. Counterproductive.
> Thousands of people will get shocked today
Before I come to any conclusions.
According to [0], “There are also at least 30,000 shock incidents per year that are non-fatal” and “ In the United States, there are approximately 1000 deaths per year, as a result of electrical injuries”
So about 1 in 30(ish) if we assume they accounted for nonreporting. If we assume they underreported by 10x, 1/300 is still pretty bad odds
That 3% number is causally intertwined with the fact that professionals take safety very seriously, and most non-professionals are afraid of electrical stuff and generally do try to take precautions around it, within the limits of their own knowledge.
The former puts the information into the hands of individuals, and let's them draw the appropriate conclusions. With the latter, you risk someone saying "I played Russian roulette and it was fine, this whole safety thing is BS”
This risk is even bigger if millions of people have tried and survived the purportedly deadly activity, such as home wiring shocks.
I said mains voltage won't kill you every time but it definitely can. We wouldn't put it in residential settings if it was instant death. The problem is that the conditions that can lead to a deadly accident don't trigger any of our ape-brain fear response. Like any risk it should be approached with knowledge and care.
If you think any of the things you listed are fine and safe just because they don't result in "instant death" then I would say we have very different ideas about risk management.
I don't appreciate you calling me a liar for presenting facts and urging caution.
>The problem is that the conditions that can lead to a deadly accident don't trigger any of our ape-brain fear response.
No. The problem here is that you are peddling fear to get the reaction you want out of people. Potential energy, electric or otherwise is potentially dangerous. Pretending like it's more dangerous than it is to scare people straight is bad. Just because reality doesn't scare people into behaving how you like doesn't entitle you to be dishonest.
>If you think any of the things you listed are fine and safe just because they don't result in "instant death" then I would say we have very different ideas about risk management.
If you think it's ok to just lie to people because you think the end goal is noble I don't care what your ideas are.
If you're wet though, your impedance is lower, so a lot more current can flow through you. That makes it much more dangerous to touch electrical stuff. Same with being barefoot.
Our bodies also have capacitance (complex impedance), which makes us more sensitive to AC than DC.
What I don't get is why do we still use differential circuit breakers while connecting neutral with ground instead of monitoring line impedance a thousand times a second. You'd trip the circuit breaker when connecting (including touching) neutral or phase to ground, without endangering the user (currently we only detect a user touching phase via the current flowing through them).
Have the circuit self-test multiple times a second, and use 10kV (like livestock fences) with very low capacity to measure impedance: give a serious jolt to the person touching a wire, with no danger.
They said that you can die if you're shocked. If you have a substantial chance of death doing something it's common sense to avoid that thing, especially when it's trivial to do so. If you want to be a manly man who don't need no safety, go for it, but you're setting up a straw man in OP's post and safety awareness in general that isn't there.
Disrupting the heart's rhythm is way easier than restoring it. Especially if the disrupting current got in through punctured skin (which the defibrillator is not allowed to do)
> a couple amps from arm to arm
This is very bad advice. A couple amps at 220VAC is devastating if actually delivered inside your body. The reason people routinely survive mains shocks is the current doesn't actually get through due to intact dry skin, pure (poorly conducting) water, no path across their body, or no path to ground, which is all a matter of luck.
But that's what a defib does. It disrupts your heart's rhythm. And then you hope it goes back to normal.
If you through further education come to possess a more nuanced view of risk analysis this doesn't invalidate the simpler process it just adds value to your understanding. For instance YOU don't seem to have concluded that there is zero risk through your more nuanced understanding. Why are you assuming everyone is is dumber?
I think that’s because most accidental contact doesn’t produce much current across your heart. Touching the two wires of mains electricity with one hand? Not a good idea, but unlikely to kill you. Touching one with your left and one with your right hand? Way more risky. Grabbing one with your left and one with your right hand? Even more risky.
And of course, modern circuitry often has circuit breakers that in many cases rapidly stop the current from flowing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device#Purpos...:
“To reduce the risk of electrocution, RCDs should operate within 25–40 milliseconds with any leakage currents[clarification needed] (through a person) of greater than 30 mA, before electric shock can drive the heart into ventricular fibrillation, the most common cause of death through electric shock. By contrast, conventional circuit breakers or fuses only break the circuit when the total current is excessive (which may be thousands of times the leakage current an RCD responds to). A small leakage current, such as through a person, can be a very serious fault, but would probably not increase the total current enough for a fuse or overload circuit breaker to isolate the circuit, and not fast enough to save a life.”
There was also a stainless fryer on the counter, but insulated with plastic legs, so I did some experimenting by completing the circuit a few ways:
- Counter to rail: weak shock
- Counter to fryer: stronger shock
- Fryer to rail: nothing
I reasoned that the rail and fryer were both grounded, the fryer more so because the metal exterior was wired directly to the ground pin in a 3-prong electrical plug. The problem was the counter.
I was pretty stoked: as a lowly ski lodge porter / custodian I'd diagnosed an electrical fault in the cafeteria! Everyone working there was way above my pay grade, but I got the manager's attention and excitedly explained my three experiments. The manager looked annoyed, confirmed that touching the counter and fryer gave a shock, and then unplugged the fryer (thus removing the ground) and went on with the day. As far as I know the counter remained electrified for the rest of the season, or longer.
I'm amazed more people don't get electrocuted.
Usually it's good for one little light zap and then nothing for minutes/hours.
It’s about the closest I’ve come to a head on collision. With my whole family in the car, there was utter silence for the next several minutes.
Pretty sure I nearly died three days ago.
(Then again, feel free to ignore the unsolicited advice of an internet stranger, but if you say you nearly died, then you’re likely in shock to a degree. Maybe this sounds excessive, but consider professional support.)
I used to commute in London for many years on a motorcyle and also raced them for a few years. I've had my share of near misses and ended up in hospital once. That was all somehow different - it was only me in danger usually and at least when racing I was always hyper aware that things can go bad fast.
This was a totally different experience. Completely innocuous one might think, on a road regularly traveled, at legal speeds. I think having my family with me made a big difference to my reaction. It wasn't just me in danger any more.
All I can say is that it took me a long time to regain the appetite for calculated risk. My companion in the scenario seemingly shrugged it right off, but only through keeping talking did I know otherwise.
*(/s)
That v² in there also means that, if enough people follow your advice, we'll eventually start seeing SUVs equipped with reactive armor.
That's far different from proclaiming either that there is no problem or that outcomes are to be measured blindly.
Suddenly [1] isn't so ridiculous anymore...
I can relate to the shock story. In a school lab I managed to lean on a exposed 220V cable. I remember my arm shaking and hearing a low hum but couldn’t figure out what’s going on. It felt like an eternity until I pulled my arm away but I bet in reality it was just a second.
That kind of thinking makes people resist taking reasonable safety precautions. The reality is that risk varies a lot; while there's no such thing as perfectly safe, there are things you can do that substantially reduce your risk of dying young, such as driving less.
A light fixture generally won't create enough current to kill you. Usually. Probably not worth testing excessively though.
My speculation: most of the power went through the light and only a part of it shocked the OP.
Calling the whole thing nonsense, without elaboration, is confusing at best.
With as resistive as skin is to electricity, 110 isn't usually enough to overcome it and push power through the heart.
Keyword: usually
Modern circuit breakers and outlets have GFCI/AFCI electronics that detect abnormal current leaks to ground and abnormal waveforms, and shut off the circuit. These actually stand a chance of saving you in a scenario like this.
If you're earthed/grounded through your feet though, that's a problem, likewise if it's live on one hand and neutral on the other.
A breaker may provide some protection against electric shock (assuming it's an RCD or RCBO), but I wouldn't like to rely on it.
Portugal is 230V. Not sure what breaker the lighting would be on but in the UK it's not uncommon for a 6A lighting circuit to not be on an RCD at all.
I guess there is a asterisk here if you're also shorting something much more conductive than yourself, since the breaker might cut power before you'd naturally let go and break yourself from the circuit. But that seems like a pretty unlikely situation for most home shocks.
I've lived near two such blind curves in my life, and at each I've seen minor issues like a flat tire turn into catastrophic accidents when the driver parks and someone else comes along and hits them.
The immediate answer might be turn of the circuit breaker, but what if we're in a giant office building? Or I don't have access or know where the circuit breaker is?
Grab them with rubber gloves?
If someone is being shocked, live, then it all depends on the circumstances, but the most generic standard suggestion in various first aid courses seems to be using a non-conductive stick (e.g. broomhandle) to push them away from the source of power or vice versa. They have probably grabbed the thing with their hand and are unable to release it as the hand is cramped, so that may be difficult.
Finding a circuit breaker may be too long. My intuitive guess (though that's not something I have seen recommended) is that intentionally causing a short-circit and trip the breaker might be faster.
Alternatively, throw a scarf or other garment as a loop in between the victim and the source of the shock and use it to pull them away from it from behind them - the garment not being conductive means you'll be safe.
[1] e.g. https://www.amazon.com/100-500V-Electrical-Screwdriver-Detec...
What kills people is current, not voltage. With AC having your heart beat 50 times a second can also cause you to die hours or even days after receiving a shock, but even that requires enough current to flow and cross your skin resistance. Go to ghe hospital even if you are alive and feel well after an electrical shock! Your heart may have suffered from this.
That being said, there can be many things at play here. E.g. there could have been contact resistance between the live wire and the fixture, which would mean the current that could have flown through your body was limited by that resistance. The reason why you can touch an insulated wire is because there are megaohms of resistance between your hand and the wire. Lower that resistance gradually and there will be a point where you feel the electricity slightly, lower ot more and there is the shock. The most hurtful thing would piercing a wire through the skin, because then the skin resistance is gone.
Aside from contact resistance it could also be that the bath the current took through your body was good (so more on the surface, not across the heart, but down one side of the body and so on).
That being said, your description of the shock does not sound like a fully fledged 230V 50Hz shock to me (certified electical engineer). In my experience you will definitely notice it right away, e.g. because you suddenly just see black and a sharp pain including with extreme vibrations that feel like pure energy is hitting you with a brick in the face. Feeling the vibration like you described it and then making the decision to let go sounds like only a very small current was flowing.
Can you point to any source for this? I have not been able to find any report of someone suddenly dying from cardiac problems days after an electric shock. It sounds kinda plausible, but I wonder if it is an urban legend.
People lose limbs or die from severe electric burns, and people can die from cardiac arrest immediately after being shocked, but are there really cases where people have cardiac arrest days after an electric shock?
I've heard this idea before, that you can die hours or days after an electric shock without realizing anything is wrong, but I think it is very rare.
An electrical injury can certainly trigger an abnormal heart rhythm, but you would probably notice most of those and, hopefully, go get a cardiogram.
If you felt normal, but had a serious electrical injury to the heart that would later lead to fibrillation, one would have to postulate some sort of abnormal re-entrant (sort-of circular) depolarization current in the heart muscle that was very regular, say 60 beats per minute, but that was prone to deteriorate into fibrillation over time.
That is what I recall about the matter, off the top of my head.
Your heart is triggered by weak electrical impulses and what we learned is that these impulses are surprisingly resistant against outside interference, but there is a threshold at which this is not the case anymore. It certainly won't beat 50 times a second (or 60 times for the 60 Hz people), but it will get a signal to do so 50 times a second.
What we learned further was that electrical incidents have high variability, some people can die by just touching the wrong wire, some survive lightning strikes twice. A true gamble.
I cannot point you at more resources here, all my resources we had are A) German and B) fall under stupid copy right regulations which I think are a crime when we are talking about any kind of norm. "Hey these are the rules you have to adhere to! Just keep in mind to pay us a few grand a year to get the up to date version"
Do they use 230V in Portugal?
In NZ I'd never seen a pull cord until I moved to the UK. All of our electrics in bathrooms are certified for use around water there, including proper breakers/multiple RCDs etc.
I think modernised UK homes that are now up to date often forgo the pull cords.
Just a moment of shock, then pain, followed by lots of cursing and then gratitude it wasn't worse.
From an engineer here, let's not continue this dangerous trope.
High voltage breaks down resistance and allows current to flow. Current can only flow in the presence of voltage.
Proof:
A 1V 1000A power supply won't kill any one and won't give a shock. A 2000V .001A power supply might give quite a shock on the other hand, and depending upon any capacitance in the supply might just as well prove fatal.
It very well could if the frequency is high enough. The skin is like a capacitor which acts like a short circuit at high frequency. DC is much less dangerous than AC at the same current/voltage for this reason.
What does the capacitor supply, that the PSU can't? Could it be discharge current?
Before you accuse me of repeating dangerous tropes, please consider making sure to discuss it with the folks at VDE, because this is what it says in their (and the equivalent european) product norms and norms for electrical installations.
When touching the positive pole of a 1V 1000A PSU (I assume DC) you won't have 1000A flowing through your body. It is not the rating current of the PSU that kills you, but the actual current going through your body. And how well that current will flow through your body depends on many things, including voltage, frequency (if we are talking AC), contact resistances, skin resistance, the internal resistance of your body, how big you are, your ground connection resistance, the duration of the current flow, etc.
There is a reason we use high AC voltage for transportation of currents for long distances.
All else equal, twice the voltage yields twice the current (and 4x the power).
So while yes, it's the current that kills you, in the majority of circumstances high voltage = high current. Outside of explicitly current-limited setups (e.g. a Van de Graaff generator or a desktop ionizer), most higher voltage devices will kill you more easily.
And so the "voltage doesn't kill" meme more often than not (IMO) gives laymen an undue sense of safety when working with higher voltages, at the benefit of appealing to the more electrically-inclined crowds sense of "being precisely correct".
Just look at the dozens deaths a year from people messing with microwave transformers, trying to make some pretty wood lightning art, for an example of this.
To be debated. Most of the visible (air-arcing) shocks I tend to get happen when I wear the wrong textile and given the length of the arc the voltage is well above 1 kV. So in most of the circumstances I personally encounter the current did not kill me.
What kills you is the current flow through your body. Voltage and frequency helps to produce that flow. RCDs and other protective devices help to limit that flow.
High voltage is dangerous if it has the current to back it. High voltage is also dangerous in the hands of people who don't understand the difference between current and voltage.
I = V/R
It's as simple as that. A high enough voltage will find a current path ionizing the air or whatever is in it's way. A high current doesn't doesn't do that by itself.
That's why you see warning signs for "HIGH VOLTAGE" but not "HIGH CURRENT".
I assume that's because it doesn't form a complete circuit with the electrical substation your power is coming from -- though some power is delivered, perhaps does due to capacitance between the ground and the distribution lines.
Note it would be completely different if your power service used single-wire earth return (SWER)[0].
Years ago, I heard of someone feeding their pets cooked, bone-in chicken. Eating cooked chicken bones is very dangerous, but you can do it for years before that one day that it suddenly isn't safe.
Why is that?
> If anyone would like to explain why that didn't kill me I'm all ears.
I once got jolted while grabbing an electric transformer. I've researched this a bit, but I'm not a doctor so take my hypothesizing here with a grain of salt:
From what I've read, it seems like most deaths are caused by 1) disruption of the human body's electrical systems or 2) severe burns where electricity enters/exits the body.
It's a bit unclear to me what exactly causes burns--it seems that arcs, especially longer, sustained arcs, are related, but not necessarily. This seems to happen more with high-current situations. If you didn't experience burns, it's probably because the current wasn't high enough to cause that.
The more common thing seems to be disruption of the body's electrical systems, which can occur with much weaker currents than cause burns. The most common thing seems to be that electricity across the heart can disrupt the nerves that regulate heartbeat, but electricity across blood vessels can also cause constriction that causes stroke, and electricity across the brain can cause seizures, disruption of breathing/pulse, etc. It really does seem like the vast majority of deaths are caused by electricity across the heart though. If you don't see cardiac symptoms shortly after a shock, you're unlikely to see them, which is probably because the electricity didn't primarily go across your heart.
I'm not sure what the configuration of your grabbing this light fixture was, but a right-handed person grabbing a light fixture with their right hand, would likely see a current traveling through their right arm and then down through their right leg and, to a lesser extent, through their left leg, to the floor (once the current hits your torso there's more "bandwidth" on the way to the floor and the current spreads out more which is why you experienced "vibrating" in your hand and arm, but not your torso). This path doesn't take the current over your heart or any of the parts of the brain that regulate heartbeat or breathing, so that's my best guess as to why you didn't die.
There are several mountains in North America, Central America, South America, Spain, the Philippines, and probably other countries w/ Spanish language influence named "the Sierra <something>s" or "the <something> Sierras".
I've been on mountain peaks on nice summer days when storms appear as out of nowhere (not the typical afternoon rains), and there's lightning, high winds, and 50ºF temperature swings. In that kind of situation, things can turn very dangerous very quickly. Stuff that you take for granted suddenly isn't true any more: some rock which is rough and gives great traction suddenly gets slippery, winds that come from a prevailing direction suddenly come from somewhere else and the formerly sheltered areas aren't any more, clouds and fogs may come in and visibility may drop to zero.
A common trap is slot canyons in the southwest desert in the summer, when it's hot and dry, and hikers don't know about the rains in the distant mountains.
It's easy to turn your back on the ocean, which isn't forgiving. Large waves can happen when least expected.
Good example of a flash food in a canyon, and subsequent rescue: https://youtu.be/FJOpZF_4b-w
I've done some crazy things in my life, but it's always been the ocean that puts me truly close to death. If there's anything positive about those experiences, it's the lesson that sometimes the difference between life and death is keeping your head and not panicking.
It is very rare that a metal sailboat mast on a fiberglass boat will be struck by lightning.
The most common occurrence is an EMP that fries all of the electronics as the result of a nearby water strike.
In many, many years of sailing and through many thunderstorms that would melt your shorts just to see them approaching, with lightning all around and no perceptible delay between the flash and the thunder, none of the various sailboats I have been on was ever directly hit by lightning.
Even hiking out here in the Appalachians the swiftness of the arrival of thunderstorms has caught me offguard a few times. You can go from sun to hail, blistering wind gusts, and lightning in short succession, and if you're on a high bald you really may have nowhere to hide.
As the essay above hints at, this potential danger is part of why we seek these places out. When you follow the happy path, you get exercise, views, solitude... all rewarding of course. But being apart from the safety net of civilization can put you on a knife's edge. You can find yourself off that happy path surprisingly quickly - and for the adrenaline junkies among us, it's part of why we're out there.
(Maybe ops engineers, or old school sysadmins, can somewhat relate...)
Always been drawn to caves and mines. The more remote the better. Your Garmin won't work there. Better be sure you're ready for what might happen because you are the cavalry.
I've done some pretty bold climbing, and I've also done some climbing in some squeeze chimneys that would trigger a lot of people's claustrophobia. Heights can be a bit scary because there is objective danger, but tight spaces don't really bother me.
But the idea of something going wrong and having no way to call for backup absolutely terrifies me. It's why I have no interest in caving despite having been invited many times.
I hiked down into it a few years ago. I feel like I'm a well-prepared person. On less than a day mountain hikes, I always bring about 1500 calories worth of bars, 2.5L of water, a flashlight, multitool, and something warm if it's cold. It adds a bit of weight but I feel at ease with some backup tools. I made my way down to the bottom (easy) when I realized I was already out of water. WTF I said and I opened my camelback and behold, there was a hole. When I had sat down for a short breather, a really sharp rock had stabbed right through my bag and water bladder with ease and the the bag completely drained.
I pushed my way back up but it was very hot and I think I hit the first or 1.5 stage of heat exhaustion. Like the article, my brain felt like mush and I felt a massive struggle to move. Luckily, there's a spring or some kind of water source midway or so and I just drank a solid amount of water before moving on to the next. I ended up making it ok but it definitely was uncomfortable thinking you were going to dehydrate as you went up.
Random story but I just wanted to share that you can prepare all you want and sometimes life still tries to kick you in the butt. These days I carry a small garmin device that can call a helicopter anywhere in hte world. It costs a bit but it's worth the peace of mind that if I manage to injure myself to the point of being unable to move, I can call for help.
I once went bikepacking, and took a fall on a patch of soft sand partway to the campsite. When I got there, as the sun was setting off a dirt track in the desert, I opened my bag to find that my hard water bottle had ruptured and soaked the bag's contents. Without a camelback and silicone canteen which survived the fall, I might have had to use the SOS button.
Even more fortunately, I had organized most of my food/laundry/etc in large ziplock bags, which kept them dry. That was another useful lesson.
While at Red Rock I dropped a Smart Water bottle between some boulders and was unable to retrieve it. The fact that I had a second one might have saved my life that day.
The scary thing is that when I packed the water that way, I totally wasn't trying to create redundancy, I was trying to balance my pack by splitting the water weight between the two bottle containers on the two sides.
At the Grand Canyon, the first half is the easy one. It lulls you into thinking you are doing great. It's nice and cool and downhill. Once you get to the bottom, the real work begins. It's 100 degrees with no shade, and any slight problem on the way down it going to be heavily magnified on the way up. If you didn't hydrate or eat on the way down because it felt so easy, you're in trouble once you hit the bottom.
Back to the original subject - there were signs telling people to look out for someone who had fallen off a boat tour in the Colorado River a few days prior. There was also a pair of hikers who had either taken a wrong turn, or had taken a scenic route near the bottom. All three died.
Probably the most useful mantra from the prepping community that gets burned into your brain is "two is one, and one is none".
Along the way to the airport some asshat setup traps along the highway. These were boulders the size of soccer balls scattered along the highway. We don't see these coming as there's a car in front of us
Next thing you know that car in front is veering out of control. One of those boulders that hit his tires flies off towards us, but luckily we veer and it misses. That could've easily broken the windshield and killed one of my friends.
We end up having another boulder on the highway that pops one of our tires, and we veer out of control.
Had there been a semi on the highway, or we had veered off in the opposite lane, we could've all died that day. Luckily this wasn't the case
Our car was the 2nd of 3 cars that got into a boulder accident
We later filed a police report to the person who setup traps on the highway. I got a letter in the mail he went to served a year in jail for this
A) your car was tailgating if you couldn't see those stones soon enough to stop before hitting one.
B) the asshat who placed those stones will do things like this the rest of their life, and/or will encourage others to do so. that kind of thinking doesn't get corrected, that kind of thinking learns how not to get caught.
Probably want to get those brakes checked. Stopping distance from 65 MPH should be no more than about 150 feet. Reaction time at 100 feet/second will probably be another 100-150 feet.
Plus, it helps give more leeway to avoid stop and go, which is the cause of phantom traffic jams.
(Source - my Dad investigated hundreds of accidents. He taught me how to drive and we covered this math in detail.)
There are quite a few scenarios where I spot trouble before it happens and have an effectively negative reaction time with respect to whatever is causing people ahead of me to brake.
1/10 of a mile is a long distance. If you need that long to stop, you need to slow down. Might also be time for a new car or at least a brake job.
Are we straight and level? What conditions are the tyres in? Wet/dry/oil slick. Brakes in good order? Vehicle size?
I recall driving a fully laden 7.5T box van for my diabetic brother (diabetic, hence he couldn't drive the van) moving house. I followed along the A40 (Oxfordshire), UK) behind him and then he cut off down to a roundabout on a slip road - my lorry wallowed quite dramatically as I followed suit and came to a shuddering stop behind him. Luckily I had six large tyres. If it had been wet, I would have shunted him into a busy roundabout. I would have tried to hit a barrier instead but who knows?
As someone else said: "2 second rule". When you are my age you can even see it!
That's not the case. At any distance you can't see the road in front of the car in front of you (assuming equal height cars).
As the OP noted "One of those boulders that hit his tires flies off towards us, but luckily we veer and it misses." - this could happen no matter how far away you are.
Which is exactly why you should leave enough stopping distance.
> "One of those boulders that hit his tires flies off towards us, but luckily we veer and it misses." - this could happen no matter how far away you are.
It could, but you should be driving slowly enough and leaving enough space that you have time to react to it.
there is always a car in front of you. always, unless you are the very first driver on the brand new road. keep enough distance from the car ahead of you that you can see the road surface far enough ahead that you can stop.
if you need to see in front of the car ahead of you to have enough stopping time, you are following far too closely.
I find it infuriating how much people ignore safe stopping distances but recommending excessively cautious behavior just introduces more chaos on the road.
>The river was swollen with alpine runoff.
Red flags right immediately.
If you ever hear 3 horns blasts, get out immediately. A dam might release.
I would NOT go down any side forks. Just like the author I have been messed up and thrown off my kayak by downed trees on a fork. Luckily the water was waist deep and I could stand right away.
The other 1% of the time is when you are close to the mouth of a bay or some other feature that creates a current independent of the dynamics in the surf zone. You'll know that's the case if the current stays strong after you're past the break. If it's too strong for you to swim against it, then you're in trouble and should start waving for help.
Rip tides pull out, so let them pull you past the break then swim side to side. You shouldn't need more than 15-20 min to get past the worst of it, and can work laterally to inbound waves.
We also saw lifeguards retrieve a drowned child. They worked on him for about fifteen minutes in front of the parents before stopping, and the ambulance took him away.
The beaches were marked with red flags as far as the eye could see, along with signs in English and Spanish clearly indicating that this meant swimming was prohibited, as it was unsafe. Many people paid no heed to the warnings.
The ocean doesn't give a shit about your life.
People will go swimming in the ocean and in all myriad of bays and estuaries that are more than capable of having enough surf to kill them depending on the weather. You just need to exercise good judgement about how much surf is too much.
It is fairly safe at most public beaches if: * you follow the posted signs for rules (e.g. where it's safe to dive, staying in marked areas), flags for current conditions * pay attention to weather conditions * know (roughly) when and how much of a change the tide will bring
Unfortunately, a significant number of people don't follow the rules, or underestimate the risk.
There is a reason many public beaches located within an urban center have lifeguards and patrols.
Mayo Clinic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0FH9b1LiwY
WebMD Spot the Drowning Person: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beNheoRRdKk
Another one is Bondi Beach - you can find episodes on YouTube. There are a bunch of examples of rescues and how little notice any of the people on the beach or other swimmers nearby give to people struggling.
Low head dams are the drowning machine, and they can look very safe and simple.
edit: link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVDpqphHhAE
What an eery coincidence. I hope it's not a bad omen that I keep coming across this topic today...
Watched this video a year later and it made me think... how deep was that water, and was it really as calm as it seemed? Yikes.
Tom Scott - https://youtu.be/mCSUmwP02T8
The Most Dangerous River in THE WORLD is HOW DEEP?! - https://youtu.be/uJFQXT6PIP8
If you stand (and especially walk) in a fast current, you’re asking to get your foot caught and then drowned.
There aren't even any classed rapids in this area its more of a lazy river thing. An hour or so away there are some cool rapids leftover from prior Olympic Games that has a consistent dam release.
We were on sit on top kayaks.
What's amazing from this article, and from others like it, is that even being reasonably knowledgeable is not a guarantee of anything. I mean, better be knowledgeable, of course -- but even people who should know better die and get caught in freak accidents. Or simply, one day they let their guard down. After plenty of near death experiences, the author of this article was still doing some dumb shit, she hadn't learned the lesson by her own admission.
This isn't an argument against research; of course you should know the dangers and treat the environment carefully. But even this isn't a guarantee of survival.
As an example I once got in a car with people I'd just met. After driving a few blocks one of them held a gun to my head. The driver then drove us out to the middle of nowhere... I was convinced I was going to be killed. I couldn't say how long the drive was but it felt like hours. They "just" robbed me and left me there. Frankly, dealing with the police after this was just as traumatizing as the initial experience - after I described the perpetrators (yes, including race) and the overall situation they assumed it was a drug deal gone bad (even though I've never had anything to do with drugs) and more or less dismissed me. They actually took it a step further and started mocking me. Essentially, they heard the race of the suspects and assumed I was initially in that situation because of something criminal (I'm white). It was awful.
I was pretty traumatized for a while but in the years since I'm much more aware of my surroundings at all times. I certainly don't trust people I don't know well and put myself in situations even remotely similar to that. I definitely have some PTSD but it doesn't impact my life much on a daily basis. In telling this story people frequently respond with "that was stupid". I can't say I disagree but it's also been eye-opening to observe a lot of casual and overt racism in response.
Point being, I essentially "victim blame" myself to some extent. I don't know if that's psychologically good or bad but what I do know is factoring everything in the chances of anything like that ever happening to me again are much lower. I'm not an outdoors type person but I imagine that (as the article describes) similar factors can easily and rapidly assemble to lead to more-or-less near death experiences.
And I think the victim blaming thing is less "you didn't follow common sense" and more "this happened to you because you asked for it". It basically boils down to: yes, people should follow common sense, but it's not their fault that bad people are out there - it's all of our faults in society, and we should get better at figuring out how to prevent these things happening at all.
Ie rather than just dismissing an area as a "bad place to go at night", we should probably try to address why it is so, and fix it.
P.S. Arrest doesn't mean taken away in cuffs, so it was probably gonna be a ticket. Still, this is utterly ridiculous.
The most positive outcome of this experience was the 180 in my understanding of these types of violations and the empathy I acquired. Again, I'm not proud to admit it and I'm still a little bothered it took something happening to me personally to better understand this.
While we're on the topic of empathy I also better understand poverty. The perpetrators of this incident risked kidnapping, armed robbery, who knows what charges with what I'm sure would be considerable amounts of jail time - for the $100 I had in my pocket and $100 (or whatever) they got from selling my locked iPhone to part out (after being marked stolen with iCloud it pinged once several months later - from China IIRC). I couldn't imagine risking going to jail for $100,000 let alone $100. Poverty and life circumstances create a level of desperation I can't fathom.
At risk of sounding like a conservative (I don't consider myself one), greed, as well as a culture of violence, and wanting to be tough come into play. Lots of working stiffs out there, predominately POCs (due to inequality), will simply work the shit job and roll with the punches... as I understand, these people often suffer more than anyone, because despite keeping it on the straight an narrow, they are usually the most likely to be victimized.
That said, I see it this way: some people are predisposed to crime. Think of it like a genetic thing (in some cases probably it is). Under harsh conditions these people are far more likely to turn to extremism, and crime.
You kinda had it figured out. What was the point of going through all that for $100? It probably isn't even the best risk / reward ratio... some people just don't want to do "sneak crimes". Go to a prison and I bet some of the inmates say it themselves.
That said, the reality of living in a world stacked against you weighs on people, and working degrading jobs and dealing with bigotry must be exhausting and infuriating. To some the extreme fridges of society, and violence, feel more dignifying than playing a rigged game, and being insulted all along the way.
It's a lot more convincing as a preteen (or even younger), seeing your friend's friends and family members making "a living" from crime, and then looking at your life with what seems like no opportunity or a respectable future.
You will certainly feel helplessness from time to time. Some people cope worse than others… I could see myself going that route under different conditions.
I was visiting a college town for an away football game. This was the night before the game and some of my friends and I went out. I met these two guys at a college bar my friends and I went to. My friends were going back to our hotel but these guys (who we had all met maybe an hour before) had invited me to a party. It was still fairly early and I thought "Neat, this will be a different and interesting experience". Unfortunately it was - much more than I had imagined.
It's likely that if the circumstances were closer to what you've described the police would have taken me more seriously.
I should also probably add that this was in a period of my life where I was unknowingly experiencing untreated bipolar disorder. If you're not familiar with manic or even hypomanic episodes your risk assessment can be very warped. That was a large component of this situation.
In my situation the bar was a corporate national chain in the downtown center with locations in most college towns (at least in my experience). They likely had video surveillance from every angle. The perpetrators may have even paid by credit card, been already known to others there, possibly even the staff, etc. Compared to the situation your friend's brother experienced it seems like there's a decent chance my assailants could be caught. As I said I'd been talking to them for an hour, left with them, etc. Video wouldn't be tough to get.
I often wonder if it was a one-off crime of opportunity or some MO/pattern of theirs. No way to know I suppose but given my case they certainly wouldn't have any reason not to do it again.
I feel bad that my inability to deal with this could contribute to it happening to someone else. But, certainly at that time, I just couldn’t bring myself to even talk about it.
Oddly, years later, I can talk about it on HN and think nothing of it. Occasionally my friends will have me tell the story to someone else and we’ll all laugh about it (occasionally to the horror of anyone hearing it for the first time).
It’s been a very strange experience.
"Comedy is tragedy plus time."
Entire thing could have been avoided if we had gone into it with the assumption of "When you enter the mountains, assume that any cold/wet weather is possible". Bring hand warmers and/or safety blankets, or even just a big roll of aluminum foil. Someone in the group had brought an amazon package specifically for that reason, and they shoved it in their jersey to block wind and keep their core body temperature up. They were fine, the rest of us were not.
EDIT: another storm I'm just remembering - not mine, but my dads. When he was 18 he was hiking on the side of a ravine in California with two friends. They were supposedly trying to find some caves in the side of the hilltop, and my dad grabbed some loose rock and fell - over 100ft straight down, another 200 tumbling at an angle. He spent 3 months in the hospital, mending a fractured skull and jaw, 2 broken vertebrae, and a whole lot of other injuries.
Sometimes you can even have life risking events in the front country, on a gorgeous day with a great forecast. Now I take small emergency jacket all the time* regardless of anything. Another good reason is if you sustain an injury, you can get tremendously cold even in decent weather. Heating packs are a good idea too.
* - well until I get negligent again, and get caught out in another hailstorm.
I've done some hiking and camping in the Alps, and while some surprise thunder had me stop for 30 minutes, there never was sudden storms or weather change which really put me in life threatening situations
I wonder how much of those "Death in ..." stories are about foreigners who misevaluated the landscape and weather differences between their home country and those national park
[0]: https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/the-hu...
There are plenty of people who have died in the Alps due to unexpected storms. There maybe aren't as many large predators in Europe, but there are still poisonous snakes, and the most deadly animal in both the US and Europe is bees--allergic reactions to stings can occur even in people who have previously been stung without reaction. And there are deserts in Spain (which are quite beautiful!).
What Europe doesn't have, is 100km stretches without a single bit of civilization. I've been to parts of the US where there are signs telling you to fill your gas tank fully before leaving, because the next gas station is so far away. If you get stranded partway through the journey, there's no cell signal even though the land is flat with nothing to block signals, because you're so far away that the curvature of the earth blocks the signal. That's on roads through desert plains: if you go into the mountains on foot you can easily be even further (in travel time) from civilization.
If you get stung by a bee and have an allergic reaction in the Alps, you're probably within a 15 minute helicopter ride of a hospital, with cell service and other hikers nearby to assist. If you get stung by a bee and have an allergic reaction in the Rockies, you may not see another hiker for a few hours, and if you do, neither of you will have a way to contact a helicopter, which will then have a lot of space to cover to find you, and then will have to take you further.
On a related note, when I lived in NYC, a friend from the UK asked if I could pick him up from the airport... in Buffalo. Yes, NYC and Buffalo are in the same state, but they're opposite sides of that state. Here's a comparison of that state to the entire UK: [1] https://external-preview.redd.it/sihkYJaYp-ZALJToGKSGpJ6aRLj...
Munich has a park with a nice "lazy river" style creek, which at some point downstream has a dangerous "artificial wave". It's perfectly safe under two conditions: You can swim, and you get out before it reaches the dangerous part. The best entrances to that creek and its pools, far from the dangerous part, where you will find dozens of people swimming, are marked with signs saying "DANGER TO LIFE. SWIMMING FORBIDDEN", complete with skulls and everything.
Meanwhile, the US is considered, perhaps unjustifiedly, as a country full of meaningless, exaggerated warnings. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth when it comes to natural dangers.
Combine being used to the European level of excessive caution around nature, with the reputation the US has for exaggerated warnings, with the reality that nature-related warning signs in the US tend to not exaggerate, and you get dead people.
Imagine seeing a sign "Dangerous. Do not attempt to follow this abandoned trail" - no absolute prohibition, just a soft recommendation, not even "DANGER TO LIFE" just "dangerous" - with this background, and you can see why "Germans die in {death valley, yellowstone, ...}" is such a thing.
She's a cautious person. She prepares and trains hard for everything she does. She qualified as an emergency medical technician (that gets you a big pay boost with LA county lifeguards). She's totally anti-drug. She comes across as a laid-back surfer girl, very relaxed, and doesn't seem competitive or too serious. She is, but it doesn't show.
That's how you do it and not get yourself killed.
I ride a motorcycle. (Well, I kinda used to. It's been a while.) I've been down a couple of times, but I wore the gear and didn't drink and ride, didn't speed, and didn't go out of my way to do stupid things. Those improve the odds a lot.
That won't save you, but it cuts down on how often you need to be saved.
Ended up having to sleep in the car, and even that really wasn't enough to stay warm without having to turn the car on every few hours. Roads were frozen and impassable so if anything had really gone south, we'd have been screwed.
Since then we obviously educated ourselves a lot and improved our winter camping gear and now we actively seek out cold weather camping.
You can see some photos here: https://roambyland.com/colorado-winters-sawpit-telluride-gun...
(1) always know the risks you are getting into - while she was an experienced outdoorsperson, the author clearly had little to know awareness of the dangers of moving water.
(2) statistically, things happen outside your control - and our natural response is to pretend it can't happen to us because we follow the rules, but that's not true. Sometimes lightning hits you, or the drunk driver slams into your car, or your foot slips in a place where there's no margin for error.
To me, (2) is the more important point, and can be lost in the harrowing story that she uses to make point (1). You can do everything right, whether that is in the outdoors or driving on a highway, and still become a fatality. When we pretend it couldn't happen to us, because we are better prepared, respect the environment, etc, we are kidding ourselves.
The outdoors may bring this into starker focus because the margin for error is lower, but the point applies throughout our lives.
But the conclusion resonates heavily with me, it bears a very fundamental and important truth that has nothing to do with the extremes of raging torrents or scorching heat pictured: real, actual nature bears fatal risks for anyone, if you are unprepared, uninformed and not cautious.
I'm living in Austria, a rather boring place but one of the countries with impressive natural landscapes and some of the highest peaks in the Alps. Most of these destinations have good infrastructure and are well visited touristic landmarks, and would seem tame compared to the extremes depicted in the article.
But every year we have countless helicopter rescues of utterly unprepared tourists surprised by Alpine weather, and luckily not often but still regular casualties. So common, that "stupid {German,Italian,Youcallit} tourist getting himself nearly killed because he thought mountaineering was a Sunday afternoon hike" has become a huge meme in our country.
And that struck me hard in this story. Even if you don't venture into really dangerous places, being naive or oblivious to the forces of nature will put you into seriously dangerous situations.
To put it in perspective: there's no summer here without some tourist getting maimed or nearly killed by a cow because they thought it's nice taking a picture, disregarding it's calves and threatening behaviour.
The amount of tourists that dont die is actually pretty amazing. Some tourists do however follow "google maps" off a dirt road to nowhere, which turns into a dirt road that doesn't exist then they find the hard way that fuel efficiency in knee deep dust or mud isn't as good as the car predicts.
I think if you read to the end, you'll see that's not really the conclusion. The author concludes with:
> Repeat these numbers on the trail at dawn when you hear the huffing of a bear on the cliffside below. Repeat them as you cross the river and feel it tug on your ankles. Repeat them when the lightning cracks the sky above you, strikes the rock beside you, lights the world up violet around you, reminding you for just a second that this is all just random and it is not the Oklahomans in jean shorts trekking into the Grand Canyon with cans of cola in hand who are fools, but it is you; you were a fool to believe that this is all some ordered system.
Your example is telling:
> But every year we have countless helicopter rescues of utterly unprepared tourists surprised by Alpine weather, and luckily not often but still regular casualties. So common, that "stupid {German,Italian,Youcallit} tourist getting himself nearly killed because he thought mountaineering was a Sunday afternoon hike" has become a huge meme in our country.
Sure, but in the last few years, we've lost some of the world's best alpinists. No one could accuse Ueli Steck of being unprepared. And it's not just about the risks of dong the cutting edge: while Marc Andre Leclerc is known for his daring free solo ascents, the way he died was in an avalanche on a regular rappel route, after the daring ascent was over. Tommy Caldwell has said that since he's become a father, he doesn't climb under snow pack any more: not because he's not prepared but because it is impossible to be prepared, at least not completely.
I think that's the point of this essay. I've got a WFR, lots of climbing and hiking experience, participated in a bunch of rescues, and in general I play it pretty safe and am very well-prepared. But ultimately, nature is just beyond preparation to some extent.
Most people really should not be in the wilderness. It sounds elitist, but truthfully, the vast majority of people are unable to handle themselves in nature. They can't navigate using a map & compass, they get too close to wildlife and feed them, they don't adequately store their food in animal-resistant containers, don't understand how to treat water and deal with small medical issues, don't understand FIRE RISKS, how to manage fires and simply how to not have fires. They trample off trail and destroy flora. They don't carry first-aid or basic survival kits. They carry inadequate gear. I could go on and on. Most people do not belong in nature.
There are so many facets of safety and competence that go into safely exploring the wild, it's impossible to enumerate them here. Stuff like climate, rockfall risk, relative isolation, tempurature changes between day/night, wind, animal risks, etc. Knowing where you're going, how long it'll take, having a backup plan, leaving an itinerary with a trusted person, knowing the profile & route of your travel, knowing what's likely to go wrong, understanding the danger of drinking untreated water, checking sources to see what potential issues have or may arise commonly, being able to tell direction based on the sun & stars. These are all basic skills of outdoorsmanship that most people do not have.
Sadly, these are mostly types of common sense. The lack thereof is the real issue, not ones experience level. Don't be a dumbass, and you'll probably get out just fine aka: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The other real issue is people not knowing when to suck it up and retreat. Knowing your limits and when to call it quits is more important even than being prepared. One can be a dumbass or unprepared up to a certain point; but beyond that point, there are very real consequences. Knowing when to back out is, in some senses, even more important than being prepared.
Thing is eventually everyone gets spanked by an unknown-unknown that reveals their unpreparedness in a specific area, you just pray God decides to give you a break.
To add to your "summit fever" comment, if there's any general principles worth knowing it's 1) Remain Calm and 2) Adventure with others; if you choose not to, have a means of contacting them
I've spent a lot of time teaching rock climbing, and just about every aspect thereof. Something I saw again and again is that what I understood to be "common sense" was simply that which I had forgotten learning. Autobelay accidents are a really good illustration of this: the most important safety check is to confirm you're clipped to the lanyard by tugging on it, before you leave the ground. Verifying that your safety system works as expected is perhaps the most crucial of the safety practices taught in the basic belay class, and yet, noted guidebook author Rob Kelman had a pretty serious autobelay accident, after climbing for 40 some-odd years prior. He actually lectured me about how safety-minded he was, a year or two before that accident. I read about a rappel accident in Wyoming last year that would've been entirely prevented by backing up the rotten old rappel slings, and the victim never even mentioned checking said slings before trusting them. That's not an absence of "common sense", that's having too high an opinion of your own abilities. I've personally witnessed several climbing accidents, and the unifying factor was that the victims were people whose training and experience (in their minds at any rate) should have rendered them impervious to situations like what they had just landed in (frequently violently).
If there's any "common sense" advice I would give to people, it is to not let your guard down in the wild. No amount of training or forethought will let you completely avoid these situations, do not think you are too smart to avoid a bad situation. That's what I got from the article, and it certainly rings true for me.
I don't know if there's one perfect solution for this phenomenon. Checklists and social reinforcement are the best I've found within the climbing community.
It's basically like rolling Nat20s in Dungeons and Dragons. Eventually everyone runs into a situation they need to get out of, A.K.A 'roll to save' (I think that's the correct term). You can reduce to times you need to 'roll a nat 20' by improving your skills, knowledge, and gear. Or you can think of those things as removing sides from the die, making it more likely you can get a positive result. When you're accomplished and capable outdoors, though, whatever puts you on your ass is probably not just a paper cut. A higher ceiling of competence drags the floor of consequences up with it.
Even more so than that though, the best way to stay safe is to not put yourself in situations where you need to "roll a nat 20" to save yourself or avoid something bad happening. I.e "don't let your guard down" is a preventative, and the saying goes 'something something an ounce of it...'
I'm a little embarrassed to admit that should I ever venture out into the wilderness, I would definitely not survive. I lack basic survival skills and nature would eat me alive.
That being said, I always admired folks who could go camping for days (or weeks), who could cook up a warm (and edible) meal over a campfire.
Don't think this is the part people romanticize, I think it's the whole "I think careers are a 20th century invention and I don't think I want one" and the "Instead, I will walk into the wild" that does it for people.
He could have poisoned himself with something else, or been attacked by a wild animal, or treaded on some treacherous ground and broken a leg, all of this outside the reach of human help, and he did this on purpose.
> "Instead, I will walk into the wild"
But this is what I don't get. "I will commit suicide by walking into the wild without resources or knowledge", what's admirable about that? He was basically playing Russian Roulette! I mean, I get that suicide itself is the stuff of romantic ideation, maybe that's the thing?
I don't think it's the suicide aspect, and - maybe besides the point - personally I don't think the guy was trying to die (not anymore or less than a freeclimber).
Maybe the Webster 1913 definition for "romantic" can help shed a light:
> Characterized by strangeness or variety; suggestive of adventure; suited to romance; wild; picturesque; -- applied to scenery; as, a romantic landscape.
I know what "romantic" means. I don't think McCandless was a romantic; I think he was reckless. His romanticism was entirely artificial -- Krakauer's opinion that he "threw away the map" on purpose since there are no really unexplored lands anymore hints at this -- and he didn't need to live this rough life, he strived to put himself in harm's way. Someone who crosses the highway with their eyes closes is not a romantic, they are simply stupid.
And like I said in another comment, I think he completely misread Jack London and failed to learn the lesson from that writer: that wilderness is ruthless and will kill you the minute you let your guard down, or simply out of bad luck.
Zooming out a bit, you could also say he died because he churned the philosophy of using the aids and crutches of civilization to maximize his hedonistic well-being at all cost - which is maybe a more interesting and ambiguous point to discuss than whether maps are useful ;)
Many herbivores are poisoned only when desperated to find alternative sources of food. He probably tried and failed to find other sources of food, so he ate legumes, that caused serious damage in their nervous system, and left him unable to walk and hunt anymore
Yet McCandless was essentially reckless rather than heroic. It's not that hard to die if you put yourself in an extreme situation, without preparing yourself or having any safeguards. It's a form of Russian roulette rather than "rejecting society"; though, I suppose, suicide is the ultimate form of rejecting society.
I see that he liked Jack London. So do I! However, I must wonder how thoroughly he read London's work, especially his Klondike gold rush stories, because very often in the stories the main character ends up dead, defeated by bad luck and an unsympathetic wilderness which is hostile to clueless men. I mean, did he read "To Build a Fire"?
The problem with private wilderness survival classes you may find in the community, even the light versions, is that they tend to come with a very particular political slant. And that slant tends toward the paranoid.
I scoff at this notion. Each of us is a weak, fragile hairless monkey. There is no such thing as “civilisation”. It is just other monkeys just like you and me caring about fellow monkeys so much that we go to extremes to protect each other. Civilisation is the term one uses to describe these combined efforts. It is not something which makes you weak, it is the way we choose to cling together and protect each other. It is our way to face the survival challenges.
Although, that is my experience in multiple mid-western states; so it may not translate to other parts of the country.
1. Only go deep into nature (out of cell range) with someone experienced.
2. Obtain a rescue device (Apple satellite cell, Garmin GPS emergency beacon, etc).
3. If stranded in a vehicle stay with the vehicle!
I think the above is probably the most important. Having someone experienced within arms reach would be the best bet when/if shit hits the fan.
Not just that. One can learn a lot from the mere presence of someone more experienced. How do they prepare, what do they bring, how do they pace themselves, how do they make decisions. Basically it makes it more likely that you don’t even get near the bad situation.
And in the Alps, you have areas with so many tourists the path is affectionally called a highway, but it would take 2 hours of hiking to get into cell range because mountains block signals.
I think it depends more on how many people you’re likely to meet per hour than cell range.
This also goes for driving - especially in winter! Do not leave the commonly travelled roads if you don't know what you're doing! A stuck car gets freezing cold quite fast in many places.
Also, pack 2-3x the water you think you will need.
This. Or pack the water you think you need AND have a water filtration system with known locations of accessible water.
It’s a classic case of moral hazard [1].
If you wanted to bootstrap by yourself or with other inexperienced friends- I would start by getting a car accessible campsite, and then use that as a base camp. Go on small hikes that take you back to your site. Very few survival skills are needed for that sort of thing- you can get started with a cooler, a grill, and a bundle of firewood.
If you enjoy that, then start using more primitive tools and trying larger hikes in future trips, and you can work your way up to backpacking or whatever your goals are
(and cooking a meal on a camping stove is just cooking, nothing magical)
Do a few of these and try something new out every time. Maybe you want to work on building skills like fire making. Maybe you want to try out new equipment such as using a camping stove with dehydrated food instead of a fire. Or try out techniques like packing all of your stuff in a backpacking pack and take it on hikes to see how what you'd need (and possibly not need) go backpacking.
Once you feel comfortable start expanding out. Maybe try a day hike where you cover more ground (but don't overdo it at first, stay within what you know for a fact you are capable of). Do an out and back one where you start at your car, and end back up at your car. Maybe try going for one night of backpacking to "wilderness" camp sites at a local park. These sites are usually a short hike from where you'll park with no amenities. Practice your skills. Enjoy the nature.
From there figure out what you are enjoying and maximize that. Do you like the hiking? The camping? Just hanging out with friends around a campfire? Do that. It's not about how extreme you can make it, it's about what you like. If hiking makes you miserable and all you want to do is sleep outdoors for a few nights with a stable fire, then there is no shame in sticking to car camping. There will be purists who look down on it, but who cares?
Try new things, find what you enjoy, and don't push yourself more than you know you are capable of.
- If you go hiking, take a small backpack. It should have an extra layer of clothing, some snacks, and water, at minimum.
- Never eat anything unless you are 100% certain you know what it is and it is non-toxic. Only drink from a lake or stream in an emergency, and then purify or boil the water if possible.
- Always bring a hat. Like the girl in the article, I've found myself in unexpected relentless sun.
- Wear sensible shoes. The definition of 'sensible' depends on what you're doing, but when in doubt go slightly overkill.
- Never go into nature alone. Ideally, go with a group of at least 3 people. Then if 1 person is seriously hurt, 1 person can stay with them and the last person can go for help.
- Always tell someone where you are going and when you plan to return. When you get back, tell them you're safe. For a simple weekend campout, that means telling a friend or family member. For a strenuous full-day hike, that means stopping at a ranger station before and after the hike.
- Never go off trail (both because it's easy to get lost, and because it's bad to trample mother nature).
- Always have maps - ideally paper ones. Even for a simple trail, pull out a cell phone and take a picture of the map at the trailhead.
- Bring more supplies (including food and water) than you think you need. With each trip you'll learn more about what you wish you had and what you brought but didn't use.
- Bring backups of critical things. Two flashlights, two ways to start fires, and two knives of some description (they don't have to be fancy).
- Have a realistic view of your limits (and your gear's limits). Seeing a nifty rock face doesn't mean you know how to climb it. Even if you know how, you probably don't have climbing equipment with you.
- Animals are not your friends. Research in advance what animals to expect wherever you're going, and what precautions to take. Camping in bear country is different than camping in raccoon country, for example.
- Research where you're going and pack accordingly. Is there running water? If not, plan how you will get and purify water. Are fires allowed? If not, plan how you will cook your food.
If this whole list is intimidating, just start simply and enjoy figuring things out - it can be a lot of fun as long as you come prepared (and try to over plan and over-pack at first while you learn).
Being an Australian it always entertains when you hear Americans talking about how everything in Australia is out to kill you... Truth is, almost nothing in Australia is out to kill you unless you really annoy it and you are far more likely to have problems with dying of exposure and heat exhaustion.
In the US on the other hand it seems you have lots of real predators who are out looking for a free feed that you need to take real care about. I had no idea raccoons were potentially dangerous.
I suppose it's all about what you are familiar with. I have no problem heading off walking in the Australian bush, with full knowledge that there are snakes out there that could bite me if I did something stupid but you rarely see them and if you do they are flaked out on a rock asleep. I'd be very cautious about bushwalking in the US, as I've no idea of the risks.
Then make sure you let them know you are back.
Far too many people get lost and nobody knows where they have gone.
1. Look up the 10 Essentials and learn what they are/how to use them.
2. Search for Wilderness First Aid (2 day) or Wilderness First Responder (10 day) courses in your area. The focus is on how to assess and treat problems after they've occurred, but in the process you'll learn what the potential dangers are and how to avoid them or notice them early. For example, you can get hypothermia at surprisingly high temperatures (50 degrees F) in the right conditions, and some of the symptoms are paradoxical.
3. This one might be a bit controversial, but look up the Boy Scouts of America requirements for tenderfoot, second class, and first class scout. Before kids can start earning badges, the Boy Scouts require them to learn a fairly rigorous and comprehensive set of skills in order to not die in the process (first aid, camping, starting a fire and camp cooking, navigation, knot tying, swimming, etc., as well as some ideological requirements that you can skip). Some of these, like what to do when you're lost, you can learn from books or YouTube videos targeted to scouts. For others, you'll at least know what you don't know and the right words to look up to find classes. For example, searching for 'map skills' might not find what you're looking for, but there may be an 'orienteering' club in your area.
There are some big ones like the Sierra Club in CA, Appalachian Mountain Club in the northeast, the Mountaineers and Mazamas in the northwest, etc. They might have classes or trips that interest you, or be able to point you to smaller clubs in your area.
Clubs are usually lower-key than classes, and they go out regularly. So you can get a lot of experience and advice for free, or a small membership fee. (And maybe make some new friends.)
There are also activity-specific organizations and clubs out there. The American Alpine Club has local chapters of climbers. American Whitewater has a network of affiliate river running clubs. Etc.
1) Just go out to a forest/whatever and eat a packed lunch.
See what you're missing. Maybe an insulated container for food/drinks? Camp-compatible cutlery? Something to sit on? Better shoes? Windproof clothes?
When you feel comfortable enough, graduate to step 2
2) Make a meal in the wild, maybe have a nap or read a book.
Get a Trangia or Primus gas cooker and some ingredients you can cook a meal with. A ready-made camping meal is just fine or you can get fancy and cook everything from scratch.
Again see if you're missing something. Maybe something to wash the dishes? If you're cooking something, you either need to carry more water or have a way of purifying an existing source. Maybe a small solar panel + powerbank for your device(s). A better backpack that can fit all the gear without weighing you down?
For napping, nothing beats a Ticket To The Moon hammock. They're light but durable and you're not laying on the ground. They do need trees though, so for deserts they're not really optimal :) The pro-models with the integrated mosquito net are amazingly simple to set up.
Again, repeat steps 1 & 2 until you feel comfortable enough to move to the next step:
3) Sleeping outdoors
This is the costliest bit. The two main routes to take are either hammock or tent. For both you need a sleeping bag. Good tents are expensive, so maybe look into borrowing or renting. For hammock camping you'll want an underquilt and a tarp on top so you don't get cold or wet.
I recommend being brave about this and doing the first night(s) on your backyard or a friend's. If there are any issues you can just abort and walk inside.
After you're comfortable and equipped for all three steps, you can start planning longer multi-day trips along popular paths.
I heavily recommend getting/renting a Garmin inReach if you're going solo or outside of cell range.
He was a journalist who lived in New York, it was winter and well below freezing for weeks and he'd acclimatized, but he agreed to go for a walk with a friend in Uganda. So he flew there overnight, landed, went out drinking and catching up, then headed off on a walk along the Nile in 100F+ weather. They were fairly well prepared, had emergency satelite communication etc. First few days were fine, but then they headed off the road. Only a few miles, then over the course of an hour he went from needing a short break, to being delirious, struggled to drink, then finally passed out. The rescue helicopter they had the coverage for didn't get there in time - literally two hours from "can we pause a minute" to "he's dead".
Power was an experienced traveller, on a decent expedition, with good support. Not a flip-flop wearing tourist you find up half way up a mountain with no map and a twisted ankle. A walk for a few miles from a road in 30C sun is the kind of thing you may think will end up with some sunburn if you forget to wear a hat, not something that will kill a 39 year old before a helicopter can reach him.
Where it gets tricky, in my opinion is:
- we aren't convinced the person is currently capable of making rational decisions
- we aren't convinced the person is fully informed and equipped with an intimate understanding of the risk they're undertaking
I think both of these cases are about wanting what's best for the individual, but struggling with the balance of support vs. control.
It’s also evident in her story about getting caught by the river. She thought, I’m not going to do anything crazy like those climbers- and then did something that seemed innocent but was actually far more dangerous.
Simply saying it's so dangerous that one of you should die this summer should be sufficient for someone to then do their own research and take precautions given that the total risks of the area can't be covered.
But everyone I encountered in risk sports knew the difference between "smart crazy" vs "dumb crazy".
It is the difference between using knowledge, skill, technology, and mental focus to reduce risk to manageable levels, vs "getting away with it".
Getting away with it, riding on PDL — Pure Dumb Luck — can work for a long time. Until it doesn't, and you're dead. Like those YouTube idiots in the article. Getting away with it is just Russian Roulette with a different name and method.
Yet by using knowledge, skill, technology, and mental focus, people can live entire careers in situations that would reliably kill us in seconds, everythign from mountaineering, deep underwater, aviation, space, racecar driving, and more. Understand the risks, the skills to avoid them, the technology to minimize them, and pay attention, and you'll likely be rewarded with a lifetime of risky and rewarding adventures.
Read the books, take the lessons, get some good coaching and apprenticing, and don't cheap out on good gear (as they say, if you've got only a $10 head, then fine, get a $10 helmet, otherwise...). Also, listen to your body and the surroundings. If the conditions or your body is off, you don't have to TODAY climb that route, do that dive, whatever; you can do it or another one tomorrow.
It is no less joy to be wise about it!
If you get hurt as a kid in a lower stakes fashion, you start to learn that breaking the rules hurts. That opportunity for lower stakes learning might be shrinking as we legislate away some "risky" stuff.
Some people simply can't handle the "constraints" of being responsible... like my wife. Her favorite quote is "I just want to live life". No thoughts to "what if?" or being prepared. If some stranger held the same beliefs and died, I still wouldn't feel bad - that's the way they chose to live thier life.
Yup, humans are generally awful at understanding and managing risk, and it is in no small part because there is almost anti-training about risk outside of high-risk activities, and even some of those are very low on guidance and high on PDL.
>> I still wouldn't feel bad - that's the way they chose to live thier life.
True, 'tho I feel like it is my better to not die soon-ish doing what I love, but enjoy many decades of doing what I love; doing it a little smarter and sometimes not quite at Warp-9 every second, so I can do more Warp-9 seconds later.
I used to be an alpine ski racer, downhill my best event. At one national championship, the lower half of the race course was pretty flat and the race organizers decided to spice up one of the drop-offs with a bigger jump, building an illegal ramp before the drop-off (the FIS rules for Downhill stated that features cannot be sloped up before the racers leave the ground, level or down-slope only). I decided I had the knowledge I needed without pushing it on that feature in training so shed some speed every training run. For the several days of training runs before the race, every afternoon we were visiting friends in the hospital with fairly serious injuries from that feature (one back injury never raced again and never fully recovered). By race day, they'd decided to make it legal and shaved off the ramp. I have never felt that I missed out on anything by being aggressive on the top and skipping the Warp-9 attitude there...
Normal humans are normal at understanding and managing risk because normal is defined by typical human behavior.
It is your expectations that deviate from the norm.
(the above applies to pretty much all "people suck" type gripes)
While I've been very fortunate to have been able to pursue and get training in a variety of activities considered high-risk, I'm amazed at how often it applies to ordinary situations. Plus, an awful lot of ordinary life is much higher-risk than people think.
We don't need extensive experience in sports or motorsports to understand that the difference between wearing a helmet or not in even a stupid little fall where your head hits something hard is the difference between "damn, I scratched my helmet" and your family organizing your funeral. This applies to everyone, and yet it is only this generation that is normalizing wearing helmets on bicycles, etc., and people still vociferously fight motorcycle helmet laws despite mountains of statistics of higher severe injury and death rates among non-helmeted motorcyclists vs. people who wear gear.
While it is ordinary for most people to not only not understand epidemiology and statistics, a significant portion also willfully ignore the advice of those who do. Just because this significant portion exists, should we no longer expect people to either understand something or at least respect those who do?
Most particularly, humans are obviously capable of understanding the difference between getting away with relying on Pure Dumb Luck vs applying knowledge, skill, technology, and attention to managing risk.
Yet, just as obviously, MOST people haven't got a clue and consistently engage in foolish risks, and get injured or dead as a result, whether we're talking about YouTube idiots, people going to COVID parties, or in massive drinking binges, and nevermind understanding anything about engineering risk building bridges, aircraft, or whatever.
It seems an obvious line to draw at understanding risk between using skill/knowledge/tech/attention vs using Pure Dumb Luck that the latter suck at risk management, and objectively most people are in the latter group. Moreover, I'd say more people are in this latter group, and the consequences are more serious, than in other fields, such as saying "most people suck at proper grammar".
What am I missing?
Look at people like Ayrton Senna. Died doing what he loved, but he didn't have to, and the changes that his death inspired made F1 racing much safer without sacrificing the hair-raising speed. He also probably would have lived if the sport's governing body had learned from a prior serious crash on the ultimately fatal corner.
Personally, I still feel bad about deaths like that.
The solutions implemented where only discovered/developed because of the crash. We can go back in time and see how many people would have been saved by seatbelts and airbags. I would guess there are additional future safety stuff that future people could look back on us the same way. It's just reality and I don't feel bad about that.
Admittedly this gave me a chuckle. Most people don't go that fast, but with the right kind of car this no big deal on the Autobahn.
I recently floored it for hours in a Dacia Jogger, going its absolute Vmax of 175 km/h, and that was uncomfortable. The same in an Audi or BMW is hardly noticeable.
But seriously: I've had the old lady thing happen to me more than once.
That had me laughing.
Funny story: I once, long ago in the corridor stopped to help a bunch of people in a Trabant, the engine had seized and it really wasn't going to go anywhere so I offered to tow them behind my 230E, which could easily do that. They agreed happily and we hooked them up, and one of their party switched to my car to show me where to go (illegal to go off the corridor, but screw it, this had massive consequences later on but at the time I was still totally oblivious). So we're back on the highway and doing 50 or so and the guy asks 'can't you go any faster?'. I say sure, but what about the tow? 'They will have to follow ;)'. Ok, so doing a 110 or so (where you could legally go maybe 90 at the time) for an hour took us to Frankfurt a/d Oder where they lived, I dropped them off at home and the guy that drove the Trabbi came to me and said that they'd never gone that fast with it before...
Good times. Obviously, for East Germans before the wende there was a lot of misery (same in Poland, my destination) but there was also a strong camaraderie, 'us against the system'.
> there was also a strong camaraderie, 'us against the system'
I think this is what gets lost in prosperity, and what causes some of the current spiritual misery. You simply don't need other people anymore if you have enough money, which in turn destroys community. Maybe the land of plenty is a dystopia, and we're not meant to live like this for extended periods of time.
On AutoBahn stretches old M3s and Mercedes E190 are capable of 150 mph and they do absolutely floor it. The only risk it's mechanical failure or tyre blowing up.
I still mantain that for those looking for kinetic adrenaline the big Cigarette powerboats are better, even though they are slower than cars you are essentially always surrounded by nothing and the feeling is more intense (even though they are slower than cars) because you are in the wind yourself and the jumping on the waves makes it seems even more kinetic.
German here, it's not fast for the Autobahn, per se. The issue is though talking about the speed on its own is nearly meaningless, the most important factor becomes the road and what speed it is designed for. There are plenty of stretches on the Autobahn where there is no speed limit AND you can "safely" go 250+kph. Although I personally get uneasy at speeds beyond that because it starts to feel like you're entering an event horizon where unforeseen things on the road ahead are now beyond your ability to meaningfully react to them.
That being said, there are lots of stretches on the Autobahn where the speed limit is 80-100kph, often with good reason.
Raw nature is scary and easily able to kill you.
Unless you have specific examples that you're thinking of here.
On any given mountain climb, maybe. But overall? I don't know. A coworker of mine who liked mountaineering made lots of acquaintances in that lifestyle, and he told me they are often missing limbs and show lots of ugly scars, and have lots of near-death anecdotes about themselves. I'm talking about people who do this either for a living or as an all-consuming lifestyle, not casuals.
He told me of a girl, a pro mountaineer, who was missing several fingers and had plenty of teeth knocked out. Her skin looked terrible, too. And he told me this is common. Her boyfriend was also a mountaineer, because that's yet another common fact: mountaineers band together, it's difficult to be in a couple with one if you don't find that lifestyle fascinating.
Another friend who does parachuting (from airplanes) told me he knows lots of people who do BASE jumping (or even worse, those senseless "wingsuit" jumpers) and they tend to die young. They do a lot of it, always chasing a more extreme high, until one day they simply don't make it.
The "don't put this plastic bag on your mouth" warnings come about because the public supports those laws/cases. Those people are at the point were they rely on other to be responsible for them rather than using common sense. Those laws/cases create an environment where people come to expect warnings for everything rather than rely on their own common sense.
I do think you're right that day to life would cause more harm without any warnings, at least for certain people. The people who are responsible for themselves are generally going to be ok in either situation. The people who are happy-go-lucky and rely on others to think for them and arlt high risk in either situation, sometimes regardless of if warnings are present.
The plastic bag warning is aimed at parents of children mostly. Babies, love crinkly things. I know that my son when he started crawling would seek out the on floor garbage cans to play with the bags we used as a liner.
If you have someone who is not thinking about the ramifications, they would let the kid play with the bag, kid would end up putting it over their head(yay, surround sound) and some percentage would die.
There are similar warnings on buckets, about drowning. Kids that age love water, if they manage to get themselves head first in a 5 gallon bucket it only takes an inch of liquid of so for them to drown. Most people wouldn't think it takes so little.
A car can easily crush you, electricity can stop your heart. Don't be paralyzed in fear, but still think a bit of the worst plausible case.
Safety is an illusion, you never know when there's a meteor with your name on it.
Looks entirely harmless but is incredibly dangerous in some parts. Apparently the river "turns on it's side" creating a narrow but very deep stream with very fast underwater currents.
I’ve lost friends to drowning in calm looking waters where they got trapped in hidden potholes in river bed.
Water bodies are no joke.
It's powerful because there's a lot of it.
Also it's deceptive as hell. See all the stories here about strange pockets of rivers that almost killed people, or the author's own note about the 252 degree hot pockets in Yellowstone Lake with an average survival time of 20 minutes.
I think when people see water they're tempted to think it's a nice pool or a lazy river to enjoy - when really it's most likely a death trap.
Frequency/exposure matters. A lot of people swim. Not a lot of people choose the more extreme hike that's borderline on rock climbing.
The danger of the typical or average swim is basically nil. Worrying about it other than just knowing there's baseline danger (that you can amplify by poor decisions if you choose to, but same goes for everything in life).
It's not a lie, because the results are the results. And spreading awareness of the outcomes is about reducing the exposure that you mentioned, especially amongst the unprepared/unskilled.
(Let's not forget how many people die per year just by falling from a step-ladder etc.)
I once decided to climb Half Dome cables despite clouds that could have brought a thunderstorm and electrocuted me. On the other hand, I feel that 1. having had the experience of climbing Half Dome was a great asset to me in two decades since, 2. due to various life circumstances since I would probably not have come again later and 3. By now I am probably too old and busy with other priorities to manage requisite backpacking trip with two full days of hiking. So in retrospect, I don't regret my decision and, had it not worked out, well I would not be around to regret it. So long as one goes into things with eyes open, I am not going to judge.
The consequences would have been borne by your spouse, family, friends, the rangers who came to retrieve your body. This is such a young male take on dangerous activities.
I follow a few of the prominent ski mountaineers, and one of my favorite times is when they talk about a decision they made on a trip that was a bad one, but didn't end up badly. "Another notch on the belt of 'I got away with something'". I think this acknowledgement of making a mistake and getting away with it is very important b/c that is how you identify the lessons you need to learn.
And just downstream, world class kayakers paddle Great Falls for fun and practice.
It's wild (and sad) to think about the two groups of river users.
Turns out I had set up my tent on a barely-visible trail that they were probably accustomed to using to get up and down the slope. I don't know if I was really in any danger, but I gained more respect for moose after that.
Ironically, I'd spent the entire hike that day worrying about a bear encounter, but the only time I saw a bear was from long distance, across the valley, a mother and her cub.
If there were say 60 staff in that hotel, that gives Park employees a half-life of around 40 years.
Don't stay in that industry too long! The demographics are terrible.
How many people have road flares in their car? Or blankets? Or some sort of emergency heat source? These things don't take up much space, are cheap to acquire, and easy to maintain. They can save your life or someone else's.
Any automobile with adequate fuel is a fine source of heat. As long as you're not parked inside.
The rules and reasoning seem weak. Rule #1 (be prepared) seems fine. Rule #2 (be respectful) Seems to blur the distinction between respecting the danger and respecting your impact on the environment. You should of course do the latter, but not because you will be less likely to get hurt. Rule #3 (trust the statistics) I don't know what they're trying to get at, if there were fewer than 8 deaths per 10 million visits that would imply that it's a safe activity. They completely incorrectly say that the majority of deaths are men aged 55-64, when in fact that's just the largest group (we assume, the original report treats gender and age separately, but only 19% of deaths are in that age group). Even the source page mislabels the graph for this one.
Overall I just would have rewritten or cut out the end. It was what I thought was an interesting discussion on human actions but then it turned into something prescriptive with weak reasoning.
The statistics the article draws from: https://www.psbr.law/nevada/deaths-in-us-national-parks/
> Either way, statistically, one of you will die this summer.
go together with:
> But you can take comfort in knowing that there were less than eight deaths per 10 million visits to national park sites between 2007 and 2018.
?
I'm confused. How many people were there in that room when the ranger said statistically one of them would die? Were they for some reason more statistically likely to die than the other visitors? What was the reason?
Park staff activities tend to be a wee bit more risky.
They may be at slightly higher risk than the average family of four, and they rack up dozens of visits every season.
Driving through the storm in darkness, we saw through heavy snowfall the lights of a vehicle that was obviously off the road. I immediately started to slow down and we were both watching the vehicle, which had its backup lights on, to see what it might do.
Just as we arrived near the vehicle, my wife called out and I narrowly avoided hitting someone who was standing in the middle of the freeway trying to prevent vehicles from going behind their car.
That's the closest I've ever come to killing someone with my car.
Also, Be careful about driving fast in Death valley, been there. Changing tires with no cell reception, hardly any other cars and 120F temperature is not fun!
There is nothing but white sand. People have got lost and died from exposure because they went off the path and couldn't find their way back.
The trail signage says if you can't see the next marker, turn back.
Someone doing something dumb, going where they shouldn't, taking something, saying something, posting something.
The majority loose out because of the selfishness of the few.
On my first trip there, when I was hiking with my family on the Iceberg Lake trail, a couple appeared running back towards us with their bear spray pointed behind them. We were at first concerned that they were running from a bear, but a few moments later, a moose appeared behind them trotting down the trail. We turned around and booked it back down the trail until we found a spot where we could get off the trail behind some trees, and the moose ended up turning off.
That was quite a scare at the time, and it could have ended very poorly, but it makes for a great story now.
There’s no real good way to know if you’re prepared for falling into what is a crazy fast river or etc. It’s a pretty river one moment, and a death trap at the same time. Sometimes it’s just happenstance that you experience both.
Heat exhaustion once almost got me. It was shocking how fast your body can just turn off and you can just about feel organs just powering off and suddenly just standing up straight is like lifting the heaviest of weights.
WTF, even without the additional "challenges" of Yellowstone Lake.. I neither would nor could imagine go swimming then :o
Please don't fuck with nature for fun. It's all great memories, but one of 100 of you will die and someone else has to find your body and clean up your mess.
What's the matter with people?
+1 would recommend
Of course we had, but there's a quirk: they did it for ads money, and they kinda lied to their viewers about "anyone could have a life like that".
An analysis of deaths in U.S. national parks - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316529 - Jan 2023 (5 comments)