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Comment by samtimalsina | Hacker News Reader

As an immigrant who walked everywhere where I grew up, this is one of the things I miss the most about living in America. Walkable neighborhoods are rare in most parts of the US, let alone the cities. I wish we had more places to walk. Sigh.

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In the U.S. walking has even been criminalized to some extent for those in out groups. For instance, if 4 black teenage boys walk together in an affluent, white neighborhood they can expect police to stop them. Walking is so rare that a small group of people walking together is seen as something out of the ordinary. I think it’s bad for society to be set up this way.

https://illinoislawreview.org/print/vol-2017-no-3/the-crimin...

I walked a block with a friend yesterday next to a relatively busy feeder and someone in a passing car screamed at us. It's not a rare occurrence, I have plenty of memories of walking to the nearby gas station convenience store as a 13 year old and the same happening.

People really underestimate how antisocial people are to walkers in the US.

There's something dehumanizing about seeing most others on your commute as large metal fortresses instead of actual human beings.

Well the issue can be even more profound than that: areas that actually physically cannot be walked at all (excluding technicalities like walking on busy roads). On the bright side, you can't be arrested for walking somewhere that doesn't even let you walk there.

That is something I’ve never encountered anywhere except bridges. Just because there’s no road there doesn’t mean you can’t walk (unless the space next to the road is air/water).

To be clear, the technicality I was excluding was the 'technically you can always walk on the road' part. In places without footpaths your choices often require walking on the road because of fences etc. even if momentarily that's still a horrible walking experience that will effectively cut pedestrians to zero. Also, gigantic highways across which the crossings are separated by kilometres will effectively segregate areas from anyone who has no car.

> unless the space next to the road is air/water

Or rock.

This article doesn't talk about "walking" though. It talks about two things - jaywalking, i.e. walking in places designed for motor vehicle traffic, and minor children walking on public street unaccompanied by adults. While both have arguments in favor of current regulation being excessive (the latter probably has much stronger case, my whole generation's childhood is "child endangerment" by these laws, I wonder how we survived) - you comment implies it's about generic walking and racial angle, which it is not.

Yes but that is nothing to do with walkable cities.

A second order effect of criminalization of walking is a culture that does not value walkability. People are so accustomed to non walkability and so unaccustomed to groups of people strolling about that it does not even occur to them to think about what a loss this is.

But this assertion was more about racism than walkable cities.

The claim still works without the element of racism. In the extreme car-centric areas of the US you're regarded a weirdo for walking anywhere by members of your own race.

of course it does have to do with walkabale cities.

to walk in a city that is not set-up for walking is clearly an odd thing to do.

if the city were set-up for walking and people walked it, a group of 4 persons walking wouldn't be an oddity

You could bet you that those four people would have the same thing happen to them in Japan's walkable cities as well. It is nothing to do with walkable cities.

at least have enough courage to admit that 4 teenagers would make you nervous. there's nothing wrong with being alert. teenagers can be dangerous and unpredictable. the dividing line IMO, would be behaving preemptively in such a scenario.

4 teenagers would not make me nervous. Happens many times per day for many of us. Parent comments are talking about something different than "common sense" or "being alert". Profiling is a real thing that many people have to deal with.

Can you please cite some sources where it has been criminalized (made illegal) as you claim?

There’s a link in the post you responded to. That’s the source you are looking for.

I see reference to jaywalking. The argument was "Walking is so rare that a small group of people walking together is seen as something out of the ordinary."

While I skimmed the 20+ page PDF two clicks into the "reference", I still don't see cases where walking itself has been criminalized. Of course people can walk places they shouldn't (and whether they should be allowed or not is debatable) but I really don't see anything about walking itself being criminalized as the comment argues.

So I asked a question for clarification, instead of posting about the fact the comment was conjecture.

There is no law that says walking is illegal. There are laws that prevent loitering which has a side effect of encouraging people to not hang out outside. Particularly if you don’t “belong” in the area. Knowing that you will be harassed by police even if you are doing nothing other than walking with too many friends is a form of de facto criminalization. What is being talked about is the effect of living in a culture that does not value or understand a need for walking and the attitude of police forces in this regard. Again, there is no law that says walking is illegal.

As lawyers sometimes say, you can win the case in court but will you survive the time spent in jail waiting for the trial? Effective criminalization is not limited to just what is written in the law.

That link is not the source.

I remember when I was younger, that in many suburban neighborhoods it was common (i.e. expected) that everyone would walk around the block after dinner. You'd see all these couples walking slowing, chatting with neighbors, and basically showing their face.

That probably died in the 90s.

Around where I live, there are large residential areas with no sidewalks at all. It blew my mind when we first moved here. I still don’t understand the reasoning behind it. Some of those areas are in the hills with winding roads, it’s pretty scary walking there, having to be constantly on alert.

This is not just a US thing. I have definitely been outside of towns in the UK for example where there are no sidewalks and walking along the narrow country lanes with zero shoulder is scarier than most places I've experienced in the US.

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