Hacker News Reader

An alternative viewpoint on how dated "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is from http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html#f8n

Buy an old copy from the 1940s or 50s instead of the current edition, which has been rewritten to suit present fashions. The original edition contained a few unPC ideas, but it's always better to read an original book, bearing in mind that it's a book from a past era, than to read a new version sanitized for your protection.

"I used "How to Win Friends and Influence People." These days it's terribly dated..."

People have been building relationships for millennia. HTWFAIP is barely 80 years old and a classic. I read it as a shy, introverted kid and it probably had a better effect on my life than any other book.

Something that had a huge effect was his theory that success is 15% professional knowledge and 85% communication skills. Didn't quite understand it as a kid but as I entered the professional world I saw how true that was. Not boot-licking, just the ability to explain concepts and show how what you're doing is useful to people puts you way above most, especially in heavily technical fields where communication is often lacking.

Leil Lowndes' "How to Talk to Anyone" is a more modern take on the subject that I found valuable.

> HTWFAIP is barely 50 years old and still a classic.

It's coming up on 80 years.

Also, literature tend not to lose it's status as "classic" with age :) I think you mean "relevant"?

Fixed, thanks :)

Second all that, and adding: For everybody there is a spot where they will feel right at home and their personality 'issues' will suddenly turn into assets. It took me well over two decades to find my niche, I hope that you won't have to spend that much time searching but you can take some hope from that.

Oh, and I get along just fine with Colin ;)

Early in my career one of my bosses also recommended that I read "How to Win Friends and Influence People", so I just wanted to give it a second vote. If you take it seriously the book will definitely set you on the right path, or at least open up your thought processes to new possibilities for thinking about your relationships at work, with loved ones, etc.

There's no silver bullet that helps us address all of life's problems, big and small, but definitely check out the book as an easy first step - you can probably find a copy at any second hand bookstore for a few bucks.

Just last week, I pulled that book off my shelf to help me draft a response to my boss regarding a disagreement. The result was that we had a pleasant discussion and came to an understanding that avoided any negative feelings (and the lack of motivation that comes with them) in the workplace. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is definitely worth a read (and worth keeping around for reference).

Funny enough; it's sitting next to me right now. I started reading the book right before my new job but stopped because of moving and stuff. I was going to pick it back up today.

I've got the new version. You can definitely tell what's updated and what's not but that doesn't detract from the message.

As it says in the book, read with something to mark it with. I regretted not writing down or bookmarking the marxisms as I was reading; I'm going to have to go through and copy them down to refer to faster.

Make sure you mean it though. Plenty of people that have read that book come across as insincere, fake and borderline manipulative.

That's very true, especially because the book is a type of sales bible for convincing people to buy things they shouldn't otherwise buy! But if you focus on the broad strokes and try to remain true to yourself, then you'll hopefully avoid insincerity altogether. Wouldn't it be great if somebody wrote a modern-day take on "How to win friends and influence people"? - less sales-y and more relevant to social issues that young people struggle with today?

Plenty of people who haven't read that book come across as insincere, fake, and borderline manipulative.

All thru-out the book, Dale Carnegie tells you that you must be genuine in order for it to be ethical.

I agree that even this book is good enough. The main thing is try thinking of what others get from you, and curiously thinking of what you thinking of yourself.

I can recommend the "59 seconds: Think a Little, Change a Lot" by Richard Wiseman, where he also explains what to tell at interviews and how to present your strengths and weaknesses.

Another thing I did and it was very useful was a psychological workshop lead by an actor with higher education in theater. That woman could decipher any our messages and explain what others get from them, that the way you communicate is often more important and tells more than the message itself.

So, my advice would be go get some knowledge, try in real life, then again knowledge and reflection, and so on. If you do it consistently, it doesn't make you the world's most nice person, but you'll definitely be more competent than many people around.

that 59 seconds guy is creepy.

I can't upvote this enough. My mom bought me this book when I was 13, and it literally transformed my social behaviours (for the better)

> I used "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

This is an interesting citation. I haven't personally read it but I recall an interview on NPR wherein an author (I can't remember his name now) recalled a year of elementary school during which he read this book and attempted to implement its techniques. The result? Both his peers and the teachers were left confused and unsure how to react to his methods that he had garnered from the book. Some people seemed to think he was trying to manipulate them while others were just unused to such unnatural social interaction. So that's completely anecdotal, after all who knows what a kid really would know about the advice of such a book or how he might have (wrongly or rightly) interpreted the book. Still I found it fascinating, the reactions he described. It made me wonder if you can really create a so-called "blueprint" for social interaction?

It was written in a different time so the language and examples are archaic and would look odd now, but the principles are the same.

To paraphrase badly, there's examples along the lines of "So I laid my hat on the desk, asked his girl to fetch us some coffee and said '...so let's name the company after you'. He took the deal.".

Following that to the letter would likely get you kicked out (ie. wearing a fedora to a business meeting makes you look like a loon, summoning the nearest woman to fetch you coffee would likely get you a dirty look or a lawsuit) but the underlying principle of giving up credit to the other guy so everyone gets what they want is still a valuable principle.

You can't create word-for-word scripts for social interaction as context varies wildly between situations, locations and time periods - but there are underlying principles of interaction that can be modeled and learned, especially by those who are not naturally gifted with communication skills.

(Some other fascinating books on this subject: Robert Cialdini's Influence and Eric Berne's Games People Play)

As haraball says in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3130306 - it's really important that the ideas and techniques from HtWF&IP are not just used as rules to follow, but are internalized and applied faithfully and sincerely. Without that you do simply become a manipulative bastard, and people will work that out and then hate you even more than they otherwise might have done.

Sincerity works though. If you can fake that, you've got it made 8-)

Sorry, in all seriousness, yes, the sincerity is a critical component, which is why you can't just read the book and have a checklist of things to do and follow. It has to be internalized and become a natural part of the way you interact.

The results can be dramatic. They were for me.

I've read the book, and I believe that one of the most important things with its techniques is that you have to be sincere and honest when applying them, otherwise it will seem (and be) fake for the people you are approaching.

Thanks for the book recommendation. Just ordered it.

Cool - I wish you all the very best. Let me just emphasize, though, that you really need to mean it, and it takes serious work and proper commitment to create change.

But it's worth it.

Good luck.