Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negative track record | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Getting back into the working world with a negative track record

60 pointsthrowaway789a91 comments

Hello,

I'm trying to re-enter the working world, but I face the problem that my track record is mostly negative...

On the positive side there are a finished apprenticeship and a bachelor in CS.

On the negative side, I got fired from two successful companies within a year of joining them because of conflicts with my bosses (in one case I refused to work on a project, in the other case I was obviously too critical when completing the assessment questionnaire about my boss). Furthermore I left a startup after about three months because I didn't get along with one of the other co-founders. Followed by a long time with psychic and health issues.

Another obstacle is that I'm an introvert loner and hence just the opposite of the "communicative teamplayer" companies seem to be looking for.

So far all responses to my CV/resume were negative.

Any ideas on how to get back into the working world with such a track record?

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My free advice, and worth every penny ...

Others will offer advice about where to apply to work (startups), and what to do in the meantime to be able to demonstrate your skills (github/OpenSource). I'll talk about my personal experience in the introvert/communication problem.

If you work in and/or for a company you will need to communicate. You need to receive guidance/instruction from those who are assigning you work, you need to pass the fruits of your labors back to your work colleagues and/or bosses.

No matter how much of a genius you may be, you have to communicate effectively.

I never could, until I was forced into a situation where I knew I was going to have to learn how to get along with people. This was in the mid 1970s - there was no internet, no home computers, no mobiles, and if you wanted information you got it from people or books. So I went and found a book that I could use as a blueprint for how to get along with people.

I used "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

These days it's terribly dated, but I picked up one of my copies the other day and dipped into it. Allowing for the language and the scenarios used, it seemed like it would be as effective today as it was for me some 35 years ago.

But you can't just read it, you have to study, reflect, and apply what you've just read. The book itself says that, exhorting you to read a chapter, then put it into deliberate practice.

It may not work for you, but I can pretty much guarantee that the one thing that won't work is not making the effort.

ADDED IN EDIT: I should add that there are people who hate me, and others that I get along with really well. This is my story - yours will be different. I tell it here not as an absolute, but as something to consider.

Second all that, and adding: For everybody there is a spot where they will feel right at home and their personality 'issues' will suddenly turn into assets. It took me well over two decades to find my niche, I hope that you won't have to spend that much time searching but you can take some hope from that.

Oh, and I get along just fine with Colin ;)

"I used "How to Win Friends and Influence People." These days it's terribly dated..."

People have been building relationships for millennia. HTWFAIP is barely 80 years old and a classic. I read it as a shy, introverted kid and it probably had a better effect on my life than any other book.

Something that had a huge effect was his theory that success is 15% professional knowledge and 85% communication skills. Didn't quite understand it as a kid but as I entered the professional world I saw how true that was. Not boot-licking, just the ability to explain concepts and show how what you're doing is useful to people puts you way above most, especially in heavily technical fields where communication is often lacking.

Leil Lowndes' "How to Talk to Anyone" is a more modern take on the subject that I found valuable.

> HTWFAIP is barely 50 years old and still a classic.

It's coming up on 80 years.

Also, literature tend not to lose it's status as "classic" with age :) I think you mean "relevant"?

Fixed, thanks :)

> I used "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

This is an interesting citation. I haven't personally read it but I recall an interview on NPR wherein an author (I can't remember his name now) recalled a year of elementary school during which he read this book and attempted to implement its techniques. The result? Both his peers and the teachers were left confused and unsure how to react to his methods that he had garnered from the book. Some people seemed to think he was trying to manipulate them while others were just unused to such unnatural social interaction. So that's completely anecdotal, after all who knows what a kid really would know about the advice of such a book or how he might have (wrongly or rightly) interpreted the book. Still I found it fascinating, the reactions he described. It made me wonder if you can really create a so-called "blueprint" for social interaction?

I've read the book, and I believe that one of the most important things with its techniques is that you have to be sincere and honest when applying them, otherwise it will seem (and be) fake for the people you are approaching.

As haraball says in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3130306 - it's really important that the ideas and techniques from HtWF&IP are not just used as rules to follow, but are internalized and applied faithfully and sincerely. Without that you do simply become a manipulative bastard, and people will work that out and then hate you even more than they otherwise might have done.

Sincerity works though. If you can fake that, you've got it made 8-)

Sorry, in all seriousness, yes, the sincerity is a critical component, which is why you can't just read the book and have a checklist of things to do and follow. It has to be internalized and become a natural part of the way you interact.

The results can be dramatic. They were for me.

It was written in a different time so the language and examples are archaic and would look odd now, but the principles are the same.

To paraphrase badly, there's examples along the lines of "So I laid my hat on the desk, asked his girl to fetch us some coffee and said '...so let's name the company after you'. He took the deal.".

Following that to the letter would likely get you kicked out (ie. wearing a fedora to a business meeting makes you look like a loon, summoning the nearest woman to fetch you coffee would likely get you a dirty look or a lawsuit) but the underlying principle of giving up credit to the other guy so everyone gets what they want is still a valuable principle.

You can't create word-for-word scripts for social interaction as context varies wildly between situations, locations and time periods - but there are underlying principles of interaction that can be modeled and learned, especially by those who are not naturally gifted with communication skills.

(Some other fascinating books on this subject: Robert Cialdini's Influence and Eric Berne's Games People Play)

An alternative viewpoint on how dated "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is from http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html#f8n

Buy an old copy from the 1940s or 50s instead of the current edition, which has been rewritten to suit present fashions. The original edition contained a few unPC ideas, but it's always better to read an original book, bearing in mind that it's a book from a past era, than to read a new version sanitized for your protection.

I agree that even this book is good enough. The main thing is try thinking of what others get from you, and curiously thinking of what you thinking of yourself.

I can recommend the "59 seconds: Think a Little, Change a Lot" by Richard Wiseman, where he also explains what to tell at interviews and how to present your strengths and weaknesses.

Another thing I did and it was very useful was a psychological workshop lead by an actor with higher education in theater. That woman could decipher any our messages and explain what others get from them, that the way you communicate is often more important and tells more than the message itself.

So, my advice would be go get some knowledge, try in real life, then again knowledge and reflection, and so on. If you do it consistently, it doesn't make you the world's most nice person, but you'll definitely be more competent than many people around.

that 59 seconds guy is creepy.

Early in my career one of my bosses also recommended that I read "How to Win Friends and Influence People", so I just wanted to give it a second vote. If you take it seriously the book will definitely set you on the right path, or at least open up your thought processes to new possibilities for thinking about your relationships at work, with loved ones, etc.

There's no silver bullet that helps us address all of life's problems, big and small, but definitely check out the book as an easy first step - you can probably find a copy at any second hand bookstore for a few bucks.

Make sure you mean it though. Plenty of people that have read that book come across as insincere, fake and borderline manipulative.

That's very true, especially because the book is a type of sales bible for convincing people to buy things they shouldn't otherwise buy! But if you focus on the broad strokes and try to remain true to yourself, then you'll hopefully avoid insincerity altogether. Wouldn't it be great if somebody wrote a modern-day take on "How to win friends and influence people"? - less sales-y and more relevant to social issues that young people struggle with today?

Plenty of people who haven't read that book come across as insincere, fake, and borderline manipulative.

All thru-out the book, Dale Carnegie tells you that you must be genuine in order for it to be ethical.

Just last week, I pulled that book off my shelf to help me draft a response to my boss regarding a disagreement. The result was that we had a pleasant discussion and came to an understanding that avoided any negative feelings (and the lack of motivation that comes with them) in the workplace. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is definitely worth a read (and worth keeping around for reference).

Funny enough; it's sitting next to me right now. I started reading the book right before my new job but stopped because of moving and stuff. I was going to pick it back up today.

I've got the new version. You can definitely tell what's updated and what's not but that doesn't detract from the message.

As it says in the book, read with something to mark it with. I regretted not writing down or bookmarking the marxisms as I was reading; I'm going to have to go through and copy them down to refer to faster.

I can't upvote this enough. My mom bought me this book when I was 13, and it literally transformed my social behaviours (for the better)

Thanks for the book recommendation. Just ordered it.

Cool - I wish you all the very best. Let me just emphasize, though, that you really need to mean it, and it takes serious work and proper commitment to create change.

But it's worth it.

Good luck.

Being an introvert loner is not a permanent condition, and you can put in work to improve how you socialize and relate to other people.

Just like with any other worth-while self-improvement process this will require you to step out of your comfort zone.

A great way to to both improve your social skills and improve your job prospects is to start going to local networking events and meetups associated with the technologies you are interested in.

Set a goal for yourself to talk to atleast one or two new people. At first it will seem contrived, but think of it like going to the gym, and talking to people like exercise. Eventually as you improve, you will find that you actually enjoy it.

The point is that you have to expend conscious effort to improve this aspect of your life.

Well, before you get back into the workforce, you could try acting more likeable. You might disagree with something but you can choose not to let them know. And if your boss hired to to work on a project, don't refuse to do it; otherwise what did he hire you for? It's like signing up to be a cleaner but refusing to mop the floor.

I don't know about your CV/resume, maybe you can reformat it so we can view it anonymously but still get the gist of it and comment? (Delete your name, your previous company names, organisational names, project names, school names, marks, copy and paste and change the font to plain text format, use your imagination).

> And if your boss hired to to work on a project, don't refuse to do it; otherwise what did he hire you for?

We don't know the details behind their refusal. It possibly could have been something unethical, or less dramatically, simply outside the parameters of their job description.

> And if your boss hired to to work on a project, don't refuse to do it; otherwise what did he hire you for?

The project was in a programming language I didn't know (and it wasn't used at the company) with a tight schedule. And I knew I wouldn't be able to finish it in time in the quality I want to provide. Plus as a Java developer I wasn't that interested in that particular programming language (Perl).

How else would you handle such a situation?

Again, my $0.02 - this wouldn't work for everyone. But ...

Above all else, be positive and constructive.

For example, say that your current skills in Perl aren't great, but that you're certain you can come up to speed fairly quickly. Then point out that the work will probably not be of great quality unless you have to time to do that, and poor code executed quickly will certainly lead to more problems further down the line, so you really want to make sure that the company's code base remains clean and without unnecessary technical debt.

Then express enthusiasm again, and ask how you can work together to get the work scheduled to ensure it's of decent quality, while still meeting the company's timing requirements.

Solve the problems, and get the boss involved in solving them with you. Say that you're willing to do it, and welcome it as a learning opportunity.

A point for concern is your response that you're a Java developer with no interest in a different language. I would hope that most developers would welcome the chance to get experience in another language. New languages are either easy to pick up because they're similar to something you know, or hard to pick up because they are extending your skills and making you more able, adept and, in the longer run, valuable.

Try to see yourself as a problem solver, not just a Java programmer.

To generalize what Colin wrote -- this is a method I learned doing business in Japan. You can never, ever say no to anything; the other person would lose too much face. However, saying, "Yes, and..." and then pointing out possible issues that would arise (like Colin's 3rd paragraph) can often cause the decision maker to change the original request, or even decide it was a bad idea on their own.

Of course, sometimes, you end up doing the work anyway, but the 'disclaimer' in your "Yes, and..." give you a position in which to work where your boss implicitly buys into those limitations -- this is also a better thing.

"Yes, and... {limitations}" instead of a no is always a better answer to a superior. Most of mine have seen the light after discussions like this when something was a bad fit or bad idea.

On the other hand, sometimes I ended up having to do the undesirable. Take pride in what you do, no matter how undesirable, and you will find yourself building excitement for your work. You may discover you learn some cool stuff along the way, too.

Best of luck!

> A point for concern is your response that you're a Java developer with no interest in a different language.

It's not that I'm not interested in a different language (besides Java I use other languages, too), it's just that I was not interested in Perl.

I agree with you about the value of learning new languages, but I think you are more successful in learning a new language when you learn it because you want to learn it, and not, because you must learn it. Intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation.

I'm more successful in pretty much any task when I have no deadline, five highly competent assistants and a private masseur for whenever I'm feeling stressed. But if I was only willing to work that way, I'd be living on the street. Being a professional means getting the job done even in suboptimal conditions.

Yes, that's true, though I think being a professional also includes the option of saying "no" (on how you say it, that's another question).

No, you can only say "no" if you're a self-employed professional like a doctor or lawyer or consultant with his own practice. Then you have the choice of whether to take on a potential client or not. However, a professional who works for someone else has to take on their employer's priorities. That's the deal you sign up for when you become an employee; that's what you give up for a regular monthly paycheck.

If you're very valuable to your employer, you might be able to get away with saying "no". But most people are not indispensable, and if you say "no" too many times, your employer will start looking for ways to replace you.

Those are valid reasons. I coded a fair amount of Perl a decade or so ago, and I wouldn't be wild about having to do more of it, never mind learn it nowadays. But it doesn't sound like you were approaching the conversation constructively.

Why is it so important to your boss that the project be done in Perl? You need to understand this so you can see if there are other avenues you can pursue that will make him equally satisfied. For example, using Ruby or Python.

And why is it so important to him that you do the project in Perl? As you said, you don't even know Perl. Why isn't the project going to someone who does know it?

If you're lucky, there will be some alternate win-win path to helping your boss accomplish the goals he wants accomplished without getting stuck doing work you really don't want to do. Or you may have to sign up to do a certain amount of scutwork, but get your boss to agree that once you're through the current crisis, you can move on to a path that you will find more rewarding. If a good boss understands your career goals, he will work to find a way to help you work toward them. And the better you are at helping your boss solve the problems he faces, the more likely you are to discover that you have a good boss.

Of course, it's also possible that the reason you're being assigned this task is something to the affect that there's a lot of other Perl in the company, and the company wants to crosstrain people in Perl. Perl is just part of the deal there.. In this scenario, not learning Perl is effectively declining to develop essential job skills, and your only realistic option may be to suck it up until you can go find a better job. Just be glad it isn't COBOL! (Sorry, gallows humor there.)

> Why is it so important to your boss that the project be done in Perl?

It was an existing project developed by the client, and they used Perl. So the technology was fixed.

> And why is it so important to him that you do the project in Perl?

That wasn't important, I was just the guy with some free capacity.

> As you said, you don't even know Perl. Why isn't the project going to someone who does know it?

There was none who knew it (at least as far as I know), the company was a Java shop.

You tell them you're not comfortable with the timeline and Perl but never refuse. Try your best. Maybe you learn something, maybe you don't. That's work!

You tell your boss something along the lines of "I've never worked with Perl before, and I don't think I'm going to be able to complete the project with the time we've budgeted, since it can take some time getting up to speed with a new language." Then you present options iike using a language you're comfortable in, or lengthening the time that's available for the project.

Often part of a technical job, particularly a technical job with any interesting work or responsibility, is educating your boss about the true costs associated with a decision so that they can make good decisions. If they want you to do it in Perl, that's fine, they're paying for the time and you've informed them why it will cost more than they thought. It's a good idea to follow up with an email restating this so that there's a written record you can point to later when the project falls through.

Honestly, I had expected that you'd refused a project that was unethical or illegal, not that you'd just decided you weren't interested in the stack they wanted you to use. If you told me that story during an interview, I certainly wouldn't hire you. It shows a level of inflexibility as a developer that makes me seriously question if the reason you refused the work is because you're not capable of picking up another language.

Explain the risks as clearly as you can, and if your boss finds the risk acceptable, proceed. As long as you are communicating, it will be a project failure, not a personal failure. Don't be combative about it, make sure everyone fails and learns together :)

Good: clearly tracking the risks as the project progresses.

Better: pushing yourself to learn Perl and mitigate the risks to the best of your ability.

Best: spend some OT implementing it in Java and show her why it is better (or show yourself why it is not).

I am in this situation constantly. Bosses very often don't realize when they're making unreasonable demands, and it is sometimes your job to give them a reality check. But you don't just tell them no. Here's my script:

"OK, I'm totally on board with what you want to do, but I wanted to give you a heads-up about some problems I foresee. You want me to do Really Hard Thing and have it to you by Friday, but as embarrassed as I am to admit it, I don't think I'm quite good enough at Really Hard Thing to have it in a condition I'd want to present to you by Friday. I mean, I'll give it my best, but I felt like it would be irresponsible not to tell you so you could make a decision with all the relevant information. If I can make a suggestion, I think it might be better if we do More Reasonable Thing. It seems like the ultimate goal is to do X, Y and Z, and More Reasonable Thing will still do all of that. Alternatively, is there any wiggle room in the schedule so I can make sure you get it in the condition you're expecting?"

Sounds like one of my projects, Perl as well. What did I do? I manned up and got it done. I took on a load of technical debt to do it, but that didn't matter, because the cost of missing the deadline was higher than the cost of sorting it out later (which another team is doing in C# I believe).

What exactly do you think you do that the company pays you for? It isn't programming. Programming is just a tool you use to solve business problems.

You could start being nice to people. Seriously. When everyone around you is in conflict, look in the mirror. We're not all extroverts, but the fact remains that business requires dealing with other people effectively, so suck it up and learn how to make people feel good. Being right is a career killer.

More directly, start networking, and change your attitude. You will find something.

Have you contributed to or created any open-sourece projects? Showing that you are a good programmer, capable of shipping projects could help you overcome some of your past issues.

Like some of the others have said here, however, you need to look to way to improve yourself, not just your resume. Leaving three out of four jobs on bad terms may be a string of bad luck, but probably not. From your own admission, you have some interpersonal communication issues, and communication is a huge part of working with others. Try to look back at how your relationships with these three companies progressed and ultimately ended, and try to see how others perceived you to be. Look at things from their perspective. And as you grow as person, continue to revisit these situations and see how you'd handle them after improving your skill set.

In the meantime, if you have to work now, focus your job search on positions where you can remain relatively autonomous until you're in a better social state of mind.

> Have you contributed to or created any open-sourece projects?

Yes, I have contributed patches/bug reports to open-source projects, but I'm not involved as a regular developer in any project. And I created some open-source projects, but they are only small libraries. Plus I'm active on StackOverflow.

Here's a tip from improv comedy: when you hear something you don't like, don't say "No." Say "yes, but..." This one little tip can really change how you interact with people. It won't change your world by itself though. Example interaction: your new boss says, "We should switch all the Linux servers to Windows." You say, "Yes, that would help with X, but have you considered the cost?"

Also, come up with a narative that explains your resume. I know a professional person who left a good job to take another good job in their home city. The new job evaporated for reasons out of their control in less than three months. This person came up with a narative that allowed hiring managers to see past the black spot on their resume: "I had family issues to take care of in my home city, they are resolved, and now I want to return to X city."

Good luck!

Another suggestion to consider. Try not to use "but" because it is a flag that you are about to discount what you just said. Here's an alternative to the above, where you simply replace "but" with "and". (Also note saying why you like something really helps too.)

"Yes, I like that because it would help with X, and have you have you considered the cost?"

Usually "but" can be replaced with "and" fairly smoothly. However, if not, you can do something like:

"Yes, I like that because it would help with X. I wonder how much it would cost, both for the licenses and for the effort?"

oops, listen to F_J_H! The improv phrase is "yes, and" not "yes, but".

Funny you mention "Say yes". So far I often heard the advice to say "No" more often, especially during my apprenticeship.

When people advise you to say 'No' more often, I really think they mean to qualify your "Yes" so that you can actually follow through. For example, instead of saying "No" to your boss about the Perl, or even saying "No, because I don't know Perl", say a qualified "Yes." There are plenty of examples above of a qualified "Yes" that let you convey your doubts about the project without seeming uncooperative.

You can even get creative and say "Yes" in such a way that demonstrates you're not serious about the commitment. I used to do landscaping work in college, and when my boss discovered I was good with numbers, I took over part of the pricing for new jobs. When someone asked for a quote for something we could do but didn't want to (e.g. building a large retaining wall, mowing a 50 acre field in an inconvenient location), I'd give a "go away" price (usually by tripling our labor rate and padding the estimate) that would signal we didn't really want to take the job but didn't hurt our reputation in the same way a blanket "we don't do that" would.

This let the owner call back and say "Yes, we'd love to mow your field. We've run some numbers, and based on the location and the size of the job, it's going to cost you $2500. Oh, you'll pass? So sorry to hear that, have a nice day." Most of the time, people passed. The couple of times that someone took our "go away" price were rare enough that we were able to keep our focus on residential landscaping (which has much lower overhead) but frequent enough that we could still advertise we did larger scale jobs.

A qualified "Yes" will leave doors open when a "No" would slam them shut, and it's good to know how to say one in any field.

There's plenty of (good) advice here on how to work on yourself to fit into a team environment. That's a very good idea.

You may also want to consider that it is possible you're not meant to fit in quite like that. Being an introvert is a weakness if you want to fit in to an extroverted team environment, or a strength if you want to work remotely on self-directed projects.

Introversion isn't worse than extroversion; it just means you recharge your batteries by being alone with your thoughts, and have to use your batteries to participate in group activities (the reverse is true for extroverts). Perhaps part of your frustration is trying to fit yourself, a square peg, into the round hole of a corporate team environment.

I'm assuming you're looking for CS gigs, and that you have entrepreneurial aspirations. Maybe you should hit some freelance websites to fill your coffers & stay afloat, while working on an idea of your own on the side. If you're interested/open to travel, you can significantly reduce your overhead while still making decent wages by finding a place to work from that will lower your cost of living.

I'm not saying this is the right way to go - I know nothing else about you - but it's worth considering that maybe the rest of the world is wrong, not you.

Being an introvert is not a strength in remote projects. Remote projects require better communication skills than on-side work.

It requires a different kind of (more formal) communication skills though. Of course you need to be able to report your progress, your obstacles, work out requirements, and discuss who is going to do what. This could be through IRC or through Skype or whatever...

However it is completely different from an "extraverted team environment" in which you're expected to be social and cheerful about all kinds of unrelated stuff.

I never worked in a remote project, but for me it is easier to communicate via email/chat than by talking to people because the asynchronous way gives me more time to think about what I want to say.

I have a similar challenge, and I've found psychotherapy the most effective intervention. If you can afford it, I recommend looking for a therapist who offers both individual and group therapy. Finding a therapist is not the same as finding an excellent therapist, and everyone needs the latter. I recommend looking for recommendations from the local chapter of the American Group Psychotherapy Association.

If you cannot afford a therapist, pick up a copy of "Don't Bring It To Work" by Sylvia Lafair. The subtitle is "Breaking the Family Patterns That Limit Success". And see if there are some low-cost/sliding counseling centers in your area.

You can change, and you deserve it.

Being an introvert loner is fine for plenty of jobs. Just be more diplomatic when you do interact with people; since you've learned the hard way what being undiplomatic will get you, try to use that experience to encourage yourself to smooth over the hard edges a bit in public.

Regarding your track record... is it possible to gloss over the really bad stuff? Your potential new employer doesn't have to know about your past mistakes in all their full gory detail (or even at all?). You make it sound like every new employer can find out the full story on your past, is that really actually true?

Thanks for posting this. It takes a lot of balls (even with a throwaway account) to post something like this and, hopefully, only good will come out of it. If this thread goes like these kinds of threads usually go on Hacker News, I have no doubt you will have helped quite a few others with this. And hopefully, you will get help too. But that won't be easy. Here's why...

When I read your headline on the front page, the first thing I thought was, "OK, someone to help and encourage. Good." After I read your comment, I didn't feel quite the same way.

I normally try to be upbeat and positive, but in your case, it won't sound that way. I'm going to give it to you straight and I hope that you don't get offended or upset. You need feedback from my point of view.

It's perfectly normal for someone to be weak technically or with other people. It's perfectly normal for someone to struggle with work habits, project management, or personal issues. It's also perfectly normal for excellent people to have been fired. Many of us have been on both sides of these issues.

And these are the kinds of things that are easily managed and fixed.

Your issues, unfortunately, run deeper. Conflicts with bosses? OK, we've all been there. Not getting along? That happens, too. A negative assessment of your boss? Whoa. That would piss me off, too. Why didn't you just talk to him? Refusing to work on a project? WTF? That's your fucking job!

These are the kinds of things that are not easily managed and fixed. I don't know why anyone would take a chance on someone with this kind of track performance. I know that I wouldn't. I'd much rather hire a weak performer with good attitude and potential than a strong performer with interpersonal issues you describe. It's just not worth the trouble.

You most telling remark, however, was:

Another obstacle is that I'm an introvert loner and hence just the opposite of the "communicative teamplayer" companies seem to be looking for.

As one introvert loner to another, I can confidently tell you that this is just an excuse. Almost all of us are introvert loners and almost all employers want "communicative teamplayers". And most of us just find a way to make it work.

I bet I've been in situations like yours (and worse) far more times than you and I bet many others here have too. I've been abused more ways than I care to remember. I've done the work of 5 people and been passed up for promotion. I've worked overtime for years and got no credit. I've been yelled at, cussed at, and many times, generally treated like shit. But I've learned how to put up with it until it's no longer time to put up with it. It all depends where you draw the line.

I've never had words with a boss or customer. I've never emailed, talked about someone else, or filled out any form about them without talking to them first. And most of all, I've never refused work. That's our reason for being there in the first place.

Any ideas on how to get back into the working world with such a track record?

I may sound negative, but believe me, I really want to help. So here are a few thoughts:

1. The root cause of your negative experiences is probably still there. You need to identify that cause, understand your role, and fix it. Get help with that if you think you need it. The good news: you know there's a problem and you're already talking about it. You may be 90% of the way there.

2. Always tell the truth.

3. Don't be afraid to admit that you may have been wrong.

4. Be prepared to describe your experiences (truthfully always!) and what steps you have already taken to grow because of them.

5. Don't volunteer (in writing or in person) anything that you don't have to that can potentially hurt you.

6. Never give references until after you have a job offer (contingent upon those references).

7. Find a way to have a positive attitude and make it show.

8. Understand that there are assholes everywhere and you will surely encounter many more. You can't control them. But you must control yourself. Don't let them fuck you up any more.

I hope I haven't been too tough, but I think you needed to hear this. I wish you the best and look forward to hearing about you getting up on your feet again. If you want to refute anything I have said or need any follow-up feedback, please contact me off-line. Best wishes!

But he did post here and he asked for input. So even if none of us would likely give the man/woman a chance based on their admitted attitude (and that's not what is being asked) the input is what matters.

And input like yours is exactly what might make the difference when he or she interacts with potential employers next time.

As a non-team player that manages to successfully fake it (within limits) I think that even that can be turned into an asset.

Refusing work that you are paid to do for is a firing offense all over the world. But circumstances do matter and since they're not provided I'm going to at least reserve judgment on whether or not there were any mitigating circumstances. For the record, I once refused to do a job that was technically within my abilities and job description. The only reason that job was given to me was as a revenge action for speaking up against a superior on an earlier occasion. Fortunately for me I had enough credit by then to be able to refuse the job and get away with it but technically that would have been the perfect pretext to fire me.

Growth is a process. Posts like these are part of that process, so I have plenty of hope that the OP will eventually manage to find his way, and improving on his communications skills would seem to be the first order of battle. Even saying 'no' is a sales job.

Ed (edw519) recently gave us the I'm going to give it to you straight and I hope that you don't get offended or upset routine and after working with him we came out a million times better. If you are sincerely looking to improve your situation then you have my recommendation to take Ed up on his offer.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer. It contains a lot of things I have to think about. And no, it wasn't too tough, it is the kind of feedback I was looking for.

One clarification:

> A negative assessment of your boss? Whoa. That would piss me off, too. Why didn't you just talk to him?

Filling out the assessment form was a required preparation for the yearly staff appraisal. You fill it out, give it to your boss and then you discuss it with him at the meeting. Though the discussion never happened in my case.

I think that's the point - why didn't you communicate major issues in private before humiliating in public?

There was no public humiliation. The only person who saw the assessment form was my boss.

Glad to hear, however isn't that form added to his record/file with the company? I don't see HR shredding it. Unless I'm wrong.

If the boss deserves a negative assessment then he deserves to get one. The mistake that the OP made is believing that HR is there for low level employees and putting his true feelings on paper.

Always remember that HR is present to safeguard the company. They will look after the manager more than they look after you because he is, to the company, much more important.

OP: you need to learn what I learnt during my time in corporate America - focus on getting what u want instead of focussing on being right. When your a startup founder you can work on creating a better workplace. For now though focus on getting along with the boss. It's a way to make good money and it's a great skill to have - being able to work with difficult people.

focus on getting what u want instead of focusing on being right. This is excellent advice.

If the boss deserves a negative assessment then he deserves to get one. Yes, but not without speaking with him first, giving him a chance to correct himself or working something out with the OP. It is wrong to come at anyone from the left field. Just like an employee does not deserve getting fired w/o fair warning, the boss does not like being written about to HR about without ever communicated with first.

Note: I am comparing firing with a bad review because they are both the strongest action the given party can take against the other.

Lots of my bosses have given me negative reviews without talking to me first.

HR was never involved in this (except in doing the admin stuff after the termination).

And it wasn't about my true feelings or me being right. I enjoy analyzing and thinking about stuff, and so when you give me an assessment form with about 20 topics, you will get a (critical) analysis of them. With my thoughts on what's good and what could be improved. And many questions. For me it was like a code or design review.

Well all reviews go thru HR and its basically safer for you that way.

So your saying that a manager fired you solely on feedback u gave to him? I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

Also you seem stuck on "being right". That's a lonely place to be in my friend.

> So your saying that a manager fired you solely on feedback u gave to him?

Yes.

> I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

Why would that be illegal?

You have to have good reason to fire an employee. There needs to be a paper trail of him not being able to do his job or him being generally insubordinate. The only thing that can legally get you fired on the spot is sexual harrasment or where you've broken the law in some manner that could affect the company.

Anyway you dont fit in to a regular command and control type organisation. Welcome to my world :) ....

Now if your generally a rebel but you do love creating things then you _might_ be an entrepreneur. First get a job and then view the job as the thing that allows you to become an entrepreneur in the future. Ie the job is your "Venture Capitalist". Save up enough so that you can quit in the future and go it on your own.

Again this means you have to put what you want before your urge to be right. This will take you about 3 years to learn. In 3 years you could have $50000 saved up and the oppurtunity of a lifetime to be an entrepreneur.

Actually, if someone is an "at-will" employee in the U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment), you don't need any reason at all to fire him. Certainly gross insubordination (such as refusing to do a job when asked) is something that people are fired for all the time. Paper trails are useful when the employee is a member of a protected class and could allege in a law suit that they were fired because they were a minority, pregnant, over 40, etc. But that doesn't seem to apply to the original poster's situation.

I'm pretty sure your wrOng. There's a reason why incompetents ate kept on payroll for so long.

That's true. In my case I was not fired on the spot from a legal point of view. I had just to give up the keys, and my access to the company network was revoked, but legally I was still an employee for a while.

And maybe you are right about me being a potential entrepreneur. It's something that's in the back of my mind, but so far I didn't find a business idea.

Go help someone. Someone who helps about of people is an Entrpreneur if he can figure out a way to make money for his help.

Hiring has picked up these days, and this is the time to get in. Get a job you reasonably like, keep your head down and build a positive track record. If the job is shitty, don't just get fired; act like an adult and keep them happy while looking for a new one. It is much easier to get a job when you already have one. Good luck!

I second that. There's something to be said working a shitty job doing things you don't like to do and keeping your mouth shut (speaking as someone who's been there, done that). When you finally get the job that you love, you'll love it even more.

I don't know. Based on your track record, it doesn't sound like you really want to work for someone else.

I disagree with my bosses and don't want to work on projects all of the time, but part of working for someone else is that you have to make that person happy (or at least not piss them off). So you have to compromise, and give generous assessments even if they aren't totally warranted (because in turn, you will be given a good assessment).

As an introvert loner, you will never be fully comfortable being a communicative team player, but it is something that can be worked at. (Set up reminders/mantras to essentially brainwash yourself into remembering your goals of cooperativeness and willingness to get along).

You say that CV/resume responses were negative, but share things that shouldn't necessarily show up on a resume as possible reasons for failure. Resumes just get you in the door.

Most resumes are horrible. I've worked with dozens of people (nearly a hundred) to successfully improve their resumes, and I'm happy to help you too. Send me a Word doc (I can respond w/ embedded comments) or PDF (I'll put comments in a separate file). I'll shortly add my email address to my profile here.

The simplest resume/interview advice is to think of the thing at each job you're most proud of. That should be the story you tell in the first couple of bullets for each job. Most people list responsibilities. List accomplishments instead. Don't share too much; it's a common mistake.

I recommend people keep an annotated "long-form" resume as notes of all accomplishments, duties, projects, etc.; in the U.S., it's customary to only submit a single-page resume, but those extra notes are handy in building a resume. (Take some time to do an annotated long-form version, and send that too.)

As for interviewing and people skills? I may not be the best person to ask, but the above advice to get and study How to Win Friends and Influence People is excellent. Perhaps the simplest summary of it's lessons is "People tend to align their behavior with how you feel about them. Sincerely care for others."

Just a couple of quick points from a point of view of someone who has hired/worked with a lot different employees and freelancers.

Firstly, joining open source projects is all well and good, but this is only a part of what people are looking for. The main thing is that you can finish something. For want of a better expression: that you can "ship".

If you are someone that can consistently complete assignments and projects, then it really doesn't matter if you're introverted or not. If you are the type of person I can give a project to and I know that it will be done when you say it will be done to the quality I expect, then you can really do what you want - work from home, in the office, on a beach.

However, from your post, this is probably something that needs to be worked on. As others have said, consider joining a freelance site or similar to get a few completed projects under your belt.

Secondly: communication. Saying no is absolutely fine. It is how you say no that matters. I've had a couple of people not want to do a specific projects for me, due to cultural/ethical reasons. And this was fine. They explained their reasons why, I accepted and everyone was ok, and we still work on other projects. If they were an arse about it then most probably I would never work with them again on anything. The only advice I can offer you here is to think about it from the other person's perspective (and this works both ways).

Once you have can prove that you can get the job done, and you can communicate effectively, then you don't need to be "teamplayer" to be of value to a company.

Good luck with it

You might try getting involved in some open source projects, that way you can build a network of people who have worked with you and know what you can do, but who didn't have to take a risk on hiring you, given you track record.

I don't know what your skillset consists of, but if you have any experience with mobile development (android, iphone, etc) or think you can pick it up, there's a huge demand for mobile developers, and if you build a few apps on your own and publish them to the app store/market, that gives you something to show people, instead of them only being able to check your past work history by calling up previous bosses.

Finally, if you can get stuff done, you might see about working for a startup. They will probably be much more demanding of your time, but they may be willing to give you a chance where a corporate HR person would otherwise rule you out off the cuff.

Good luck.

You must demonstrate your ability to get along with people. Your client, your boss, your co-worker, your employee. You must be civil and decent to any and all of those people.

Your track record, as has been described, doesn't say you can do that, it says you can't.

I'd suggest a two-pronged approach: find a position where they aren't too choosy- i.e., a volunteer program, and also as you are working there, reflect on your behavior and consciously reflect on your habits with an eye towards tact and civility towards all, even in difficult circumstances.

It helps me a good deal to consider two things when dealing with people I disagree with. First, treat others as I want to be treated. Second, figure out where they are coming from and why they want the things they want.

You may want to add a section to your work history in which you're an independent contractor. You can fill it in with any technologies you encountered or developed (even if it wasn't paid work). That may make the job history seem less abrupt (if that's indeed what you think is the issue).

If you're in need of more references, you may want to ask a friend to provide one or do a small task on a site like elance/rentacoder/guru and ask the employer to sign a letter of reference (you can get some nice boilerplates online). That way you can present a glowing recommendation along with your resume.

Try freelancing. In my experience it tends to be a lot less bureaucratic. For example on Jobserve many gigs contain the line "if you are interested, call xyz" - no sending in a CV and waiting weeks for a response, just call (that was a few years ago, but I assume it is still like that).

Also it is normal if freelance gigs last less than a year. You don't have to write "I was fired" on your CV. I just have a section with "recent projects" and don't even specify if I was employed or freelancing.

I wasn't asked for references from previous jobs very often, either.

Except that in many cases, your clients are going to ask of you the equivalent of "write this tomorrow, in a language you don't know." In fact, I reckon freelancing is even worse in this regard, as you have no recourse--at least at a full-time job, it is likely you may have another higher-level manager to whom you can plead your case.

Telling a client "no, I can't do that" isn't going to work, because they will find someone who will, for less money.

Followed by a long time with psychic and health issues.

I'm not sleeping too well this week, so not up for any brilliant public comments. Short version: I got into a job after 2 decades of hiding out as a homemaker because I was too overwhelmed with psych and health issues to do a full time job. So, yes, it can be done. I commented on this previously here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2293021

Best of luck.

You say you want to re-enter the working world. The real question is do you want to change who you are to match the needs of the working world?

Different advise for the different answers...

Hey,

If you apply for jobs that suit your personality you may get more positive feedback. Turn these points into strengths.

Some things to consider especially if you have been having various health issues is a) are you ready to take on a new role b) what would your perfect job be?

I worked in tech recruitment for a few years, I'd be happy to make a few changes to your resume if that is of any help to you. I'm my HN username at gmail

have you looked at anger management? obviously, you could go see someone, but if you'd prefer to work things out yourself you might gain something from working through a book like "the angry self" by gottleib. it's not the greatest book ever - sometimes it's a bit dumb, and sometimes it feels a bit slow - but if you go through it step by step, including the exercises, you might find that it helps. i think it helped me. it starts with very basic stuff about what being angry is, then how to recognise it, then how you can deflect / control it in various ways. but the best part is at the end where it also shows how it can be a useful tool.

i'm guessing that you're getting angry and frustrated. i do too. that book helped me channel that in a more productive direction. good luck.

Hello Throwaway789a, Could you post a little on your skills and any other experience you have? Are you a Developer/Designer/Consultant, etc?

I don't know what your definition of team player is, but at (almost) any real job, there is shitwork. You know exactly what I mean -- maybe someone has to evaluate a new classifier, and that means spending a pair of 10 hour days looking at several thousand documents and hand labeling. Or maybe you're switching version control and someone has to go through 5k branches/release branches/tags and figure out what is needed and what isn't. Or maybe the raid array in the box that hosts artifactory shit itself and someone has to get artifactory back up, recover as many artifacts as possible, and for those that can't be recovered, find their tag in your git repo, check out, and rebuild where possible. Or maybe your company decided to swap DFSs and your project touches HDFSUtils in 873 places (just to pick a random number =P), and some sucker is going to have to go through each and every place you use that module and audit it for possible breakage during the dfs swap. Or maybe you need to upgrade from the original hadoop job api to a cascading equivalent, and you have to do this to some 80-odd production jobs; it's tedious work that has to be very carefully performed so the original semantics are preserved. Etc etc. These are all things that I or coworkers have done.

The point is, in any job, there is work that nobody wants to do but that someone has to do. ie shitwork. However, you seem like you don't want to do this. For example, sometimes your boss drops a last minute job in a language or api that you don't know or have never used or maybe actively don't want to use in your lap. Sometimes the work is already late when you get it, or it wasn't scoped or specced appropriately. It happens. Refusing to do it would reasonably get you fired, and make your coworkers hate you, because your coworkers are all doing their ration of shit shoveling.

Of course, it's perfectly fair to complain if you always end up shoveling. Or if that's all the job offers, get a new one. But refusing to do it or refusing to pull your fair share is not going to get you far.

You need to decide what happens the next time you are asked to do something like this. Because the one thing I can promise about a programming career is it will happen.

Ok, it sounds like you have a lot to work on, personally speaking. That's not unusual; most smart people in their 20s do have serious issues to work through. I don't know you, so I can't comment on that. You probably have a better sense of what you need to fix about yourself than I do.

Three job-ending personality conflicts in less than 3 years is worse than average, but not the worst I've seen. But do take the hint that you might be doing a few things wrong. You don't need to be a popular-jock type, but please do yourself a favor and bring your social skills at least up to the 35th percentile. Read books like How to Win Friends and Influence People and read them seriously. (Just don't get into that sleazy PUA shit.)

Personal change is the hard part. Regarding career repair, that's much easier. Find a good recruiter and she'll help you with a lot of that. First, don't put months on your CV, just years. If you worked at a place from Nov. 2008 to Jan. 2009, put 2008-2009. If your tenure was 6/2010 to 8/2010, just put 2010 unless it was an internship (then put a season, e.g. "summer 2010"). Second, never say you were fired. Say you left of your own volition; no one can legally contradict you. If previous employers say something different, have your attorney send a C&D letter. Make sure your departure reflects positively on your ambition but not negatively on the company. Third, check your references. Use a professional reference-checking service like Allison and Taylor instead of trying to do it yourself. Find out what people are saying. If the references are damaging, bring on the C&D's. Fourth, most people with "damaged track records" are people who give away the store on their ex-employers. The "permanent record" exists, but only in your mind. If you can just learn to shut the fuck up occasionally (I'm speaking from personal experience and past mistakes, so I know how hard this can be) about the injustices you've faced it will do you favors. You can do much more damage to your enemies (if that's what you want; most people stop caring about their enemies once they're successful) by succeeding and getting into an important role later in life than you can by smearing their reputations in 20 unsuccessful (you can't throw shit without some sticking to you) interviews.

When you interview, keep the conversation technical and focus on what you worked on. The politics and personality conflicts you should gloss over entirely. And learn a few stock evasive answers if you get questions related to these matters. When interviewers probe you for political dirty laundry on past employers, they're not doing it because they "value" your opinion; it's either (a) a test, or (b) scouting against competitors, and neither benefits you personally.

> Second, never say you were fired

In my CV I don't mention I got fired. However, from the certificates of employment (I'm not sure this is the correct translation for the German "Arbeitszeugnis") you can easily figure out that I was fired.

Well, that is not strictly true, a company can perfectly legally say it would not rehire you, and the next company will read between the lines. Good luck trying to sue - if word got out that you did, you really would become unhireable.

Also, hiding gaps on the CV is a major red flag. It would be grounds for instant dismissal, it's as bad as pretending to have a qualification you don't.

In the U.S., no. Blackballing law is extremely friendly to the employee. And no, you don't sue over a bad reference. You have your attorney send a C&D letter and they fall back to the "default" reference: name, dates of employment.

Generally, you never need to sue over a bad reference. The best response to a bad reference is to replace him, ideally with someone who worked with you at the company and can vouch that, yes, you actually did good work.

Also, hiding gaps on the CV is a major red flag.

I didn't tell him to hide gaps. I told him to put his years of employment (not months) on his CV, e.g. 2009-2010 instead of Nov. 2009 to Jan. 2010. He may still have to put the dates on the formal application that comes later in the hiring process, but after you've had an interview, CV smells don't matter as much.

It would be grounds for instant dismissal, it's as bad as pretending to have a qualification you don't.

You cannot be serious. Omitting two months at a startup that didn't work out is not the moral equivalent of a quack surgeon pretending to have a medical degree. That said, from a strategic perspective, omitting a job of even 2 months is almost never a good idea because a gap is more damaging that a bad job (which can always be spun). (If it's less than 2 months, omit it; you didn't really work there.)

In the U.S., if an employer gives information about you that's factual, you'd have no grounds for suing them. If they fired the original poster, they'd almost certainly have the paperwork to prove it.

If you want to learn more about these kinds of employment issues (from both the employer's and employee's point of view), I can recommend a couple of excellent blogs:

- Evil HR Lady: http://www.evilhrlady.org

- Ask a Manager: http://www.askamanager.org

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