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Comment by trentgreene | Hacker News Reader

Side note, I don’t know if some of you have actually been key players in a large org without management, but I have, and it SUCKS. If you think random slack pings are bad, try random slack pings plus 5+ hours of meetings a day you need to decline, justify declining, communicate about async, just to have time to get your work done. It’s my experience that without management, top performers are easily looking at 80+ hour work weeks

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When a middle manager is removed, all the communication goes to the most senior member of the team instead keeping that person from being able to actually get things done.

The middle manager's time is a lot less expensive in most cases.

A middle manager should have managers reporting to them, not ICs.

Staff+ engineers generally report to middle managers, and are expected to work across that middle manager’s subordinate teams.

In upper management it might be one very senior “right hand.” In the lower tranches of middle management there will be more and more hands-on technical-track leaders.

Those aren't middle managers. Removing a middle manager entails an existing end line manager reporting to someone higher up.

Also, being a middle manager isn't much fun either. Basically all meetings and bullshit, and you get shit from people below you and above you. Upper management blames you for anything going wrong and workers blame you for, well, everything. You need to motivate, teach and provide resources while dealing with all the bullshit from above and a lack of resources.

But as you pointed out, it's necessary otherwise everyone has to deal with the bullshit.

Director is the worst position in a company. You aren’t really a VP working on big plans and you still have nagging line manager duties.

Hah I could see that...

I once was in a discussion between two former <FAANG> VPs. They were mentioning someone who had been at their prior <FAANG> co for 20 years.

VP 1: “Jason? He is still there? How?”

VP 2: “He never managed anyone.”

I thought about that a lot. What is it about being middle management that is so lethal? Its exactly as you said: Liabilities from from above, below and sideways.

Why would anyone ever sign up for that?

> You need to motivate, teach and provide resources while dealing with all the bullshit from above and a lack of resources.

What would a middle manager need to teach me? Genuinely curious, as a person that enjoys learning, and have been doing it on my own for awhile.

How to navigate organizational power structures to secure what is needed to get something done (both the formal and informal structures). How to establish organizational boundaries so that a teams capacity isn’t redirected. How to navigate upper management culture to communicate in a way they expect. How and why teams are organized the way they are and the pros and cons of different structures. How to position a team for growth and how to position a team during a period of consolidation. How to be therapist, mentor, mediator or executioner depending on the day.

I mean, in small enough orgs they're typically workers who have been promoted so they can teach the required skills. I guess in bigger orgs there's another layer...

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