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Comment by pmontra | Hacker News Reader

To be fair, it could also get functionality updates. For example they could upload a new totally different UX loved by the designers and that nobody else understands how to use ;-)

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> To be fair, it could also get functionality updates

This is an important point that owners[1] sometimes miss.

For example, if the owner makes a deal to partner with the maker of a particular detergent tab, the owner could create a new feature that only works with those tabs and not regular powder detergent.

1: Owner: the person who owns the firmware being sent over WiFi.

Yeah but usually what happens is that no new development of that sort occurs during the (intentionally limited by cheaped-out hardware design) lifetime of the appliance. If they do push any updates, they'll either be to fix security problems (only if you're lucky enough that they get fixed at all), or they'll push some horrible software feature users didn't ask for which worsens their experience vs how it operated when purchased and brings new bugs. Appliance manufacturers are terrible at firmware/software. You get all the downsides and none of the upsides.

And just general bug updates. Remember how buggy appliances used to be, back in the bad old days when they were too simple to run whole operating systems? A couple months after release these things will be mostly free of glitches!

This is why you should never allow a printer to directly connect to the internet.

Never is a strong word. If corporations can take advantage of you, so you can you of them. I’m yet to pay a single dollar for ink. The free 10 pages a month plan with HP allows me to use it to print the occasional recipes and labels in full color for free. I knew I’m not going to print too much stuff and I can swap it out for my own ink if my need changes. I keep the printer plugged out except when I need to print and it works out well for me so far. (This was why HP was trying to phase out the plan).

That might soon be mandatory as an anti-banknote-photocopy measure.

Or, maybe the detergents don't matter all that much and should be generic enough that you can use them in any dishwasher.

Pretty sure the person you were responding to was pointing out more ways that wifi is an anti-feature for a dishwasher

This still sounds terrible.

Meta: I intended this comment to be a pun because of the post about the Tesla 3 update but it is getting a surprising number of upvotes. Apparently it's striking a chord.

First of all, if you're a UX designer sorry for being a little snarky to you. A fair amount of it is probably unfair.

Second, maybe you can shed some light on why that kind of UX updates happen. As somebody else wrote in another comment "designers designing for design sake". Maybe it's not.

Third, maybe you can enlighten us developers about the circumstances when designers think that developers develop for development sake. I'm sure it happens.

It’s not just the 3 is it?

Another Tesla Model 3 owner with firmware v11? :)

Gotta take inspiration from the best in UX /s

All input is error (so we make it impossible to give correct input).

Miele (and BSH) is really good at industrial design in my experience so I'd be surprised if they'd do something like that. However, I also don't really see a particular reason why a dishwasher needs WiFi. Do people actually like... check on them and come running to unload it when it's done? I suppose for checking if it needs dishwasher salt or rinse aid it could make sense but ... eh

Miele's user interface isn't that great. I owned a Miele laundry machine. After you press "start" there is no way you can undo that. This sucks. Even missiles have an "unlaunch" feature.

Are you sure? I can hold stop to stop the current program on my Miele washing machine. The key is to hold, not merely tap stop.

With the current WiFi connected Miele laundry machines you can use the app to pause and add more laundry.

With my washing machine, I press the button. It'll say "no", drain down the drum so the water doesn't fall out when the door opens, then say "yes" and the door unlocks.

Apps used: 0.

Would be useful if the machine could select and load the washing itself from the basket, I'd use that app.

but why? I mean if I'm doing laundry I'm within 50 ft of the machine generally? I have never needed to do such an operation or can think of a situation where the added complexity merits the addition of wifi and security threats of a Russian hacker trying to mine etherium on my dish washer.

I can't claim to know every Miele there is but both an early 80s and an early 2010s Miele has pause/continue buttons. On the 2010 one it even looks like a play-pause button.

My first reaction was to write a comment about why you don't need WiFi on a dishwasher. Then I found there may be use cases: you want to start the washing program from the office so it finishes right before you get home. That day when you need to stay another hour in the office, being able to interact with the machine is a nice to have, even if not a really important thing. Same as with air conditioning when you want to save electricity.

If you already have the dishwasher loaded with the dishes before you leave for work, why not just run it then?

We try to avoid running our dishwasher when our toddler is around because he will interfere with the cycle, but sometimes we forget to start it right before heading out the door. Remote start would be handy in a case like that :)

I have a Bosch dishwasher which has the controls inside where kids can’t touch them. Plus it’s insanely quiet

Still an overengineered solution -- a better feature would be some kind of access lock. Either a keycode or something requiring a lot of strength to remove.

(Edit: With that said, I am reluctant to leave the dishwasher on when I'm not present for the first cycle just because of the risk of something going wrong that wasn't adequately checked for.)

But is it worth having yet another insecure & hackable device on the wifi when the manufacturer quits creating FW updates? Or ever even bothers?

Off-peak electricity pricing, not wanting to wake/disturb others with noise, not wanting to consume too much hot water before the rest of the house showers or uses the clothes washer...

My 15yr old dishwasher does this with a timer functionality. This doesn’t sound like the strongest use case.

Yep, it's just a dial that lets me delay up to 12 hours lol. Overengineered hackable electronics. I'd rather than cost go into a more sturdy unit made of better materials. My dishwasher is 20 years old and works fine. The owner of the house before me said he did have one of the timer replaced at some point.

Better not to leave it too long after finishing IME, in terms of water marks and (after days/weeks, if you put it on before going away say) smell.

But that's not appy.

I would find it useful to check whether the dishwasher is currently running. At least BSH has models without any indication outside where the dishwasher is fully hidden behind a frame.

How do you set the wifi password if there's no screen that is capable of showing information?

If it has a screen then surely it's possible to show its current status.

Or, and bear with me because this is a really crazy idea... how about a single LED to show it's busy?

There is no need of a screen. Either a WPS button or start in access point mode, find its IP address, connect to a web server on that address and set the SSID and password there. I got stuff doing both ways upon the first start up or after a factory reset.

>I'd be surprised if they'd do something like that

I don't think that post was necessarily directed at Miele, but at designers designing for design sake in general.

> come running to unload it when it's done?

You don't? You must be one of those people that never unloads the dishwasher until you need something that's in it? weirdo! /s

> You don't? You must be one of those people that never unloads the dishwasher until you need something that's in it? weirdo! /s

Load in the evening, unload in the morning.

> functionality updates

The only UI a dishwasher needs is "wash" and "dishes in here are still clean don't put in dirty dishes yet." I've yet to see a dishwasher do the latter with the necessary nuance.

My kitchen aid has a white light that comes on when it finishes running, and automatically shuts itself off when it is closed.

As long as you unload it instead of fishing a single item out this works pretty well for telling the clean state.

> fishing a single item out

This is the challenge. Allow for partial unload without displaying "ready for dirty dish load."

Ultimately I think it has to be performed by a manually operated sign, which can easily get out of sync with the dishwasher state.

https://www.amazon.com/Dishwasher-Indicator-Dishwashers-Home...

Yeah, I'm surprised I haven't worn out the door latch on my dishwasher...

My dishwasher has a manual lever for locking during wash. I guess I know if its locked and not running and filled they are clean and can be put away.

Tesla is making dishwashers now?

“Full Self-Washing” is coming soon, just you wait!

And check out the new Ridiculous wash cycle!

The jokes practically write themselves.

"Soon you will be able to turn on your water valve and enjoy clean dishes, almost as much joy as being a part of the Tesla Family. Keep your eyes out for a dry cycle for only an additional $8000"

Is the Ridiculous Wash where you put in regular dish soap instead of dishwasher soap and the suds go all over the floor?

Or remove features altogether because they don't want to support them anymore!

In theory yes, but so far in my 43 years of life feature updates are usually things that are hostile to the user.

So things are now generally much less user friendly than 43 years ago?

Yes. Both more capable and less user friendly. 40 years ago a TV had three physical controls and one input.

Those old TVs had some serious usability issues, though. There were 10 (?) channels selectable by one knob, and then additional channels selected if the main knob was turned to the correct setting ("UHF", if I recall correctly). The master knob tended to be below the additional-frequency knob, though, which seems a little strange. Then there was the challenge of the fine adjustment ring on the UHF selector for tuning (not sure if the master knob had one). And, of course, the more frequently needed coarse adjustment from the (unmentioned) antenna, which seemed like it always needed some hacky tweaking. Including sometimes touching it continuously in order to get a good picture.

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