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I think that the American thirst for money is perhaps sometimes greed, but most often it's a gnawing psychological side effect of our relative lack of personal security in our society. A person can have $100k in the bank and still be bankrupted and left literally living on the streets if they have the audacity to get cancer, lose their job, and have unlucky circumstances.

(edit) This insecurity is a 'feature', not a bug, in our social fabric though - it keeps workers compliant and 'grateful' to have income even when work conditions are otherwise unacceptable. It's why some fight so hard to prevent any expansion of a social safety net.

Personally, I only started feeling safe when my savings edged up towards 1M.. but I may also be more anxious than most.

To add to that since public institutions are failed or failing you keep having to buy your way out of get stuck.

2-3 Cars to buy out of failing public transport

Private school to make up for failing schools or at least a house in a rich school district enclave

Private senior caretaker because there are no good adult homes for any price

Gated community for failed policing

Etc etc and you get stuck in this cycle of having to buy your way out of society’s problems that’s really hard to stop but also hard to maintain if you loose your job.

> but most often it's a gnawing psychological side effect of our relative lack of personal security in our society.

This is really it. I certainly have some lifestyle inflation in my life, but not a lot compared to many others in my income bracket. I have no desire to increase my consumption beyond where I've been for some time.

Even though I logically know I'm in a great financial position - especially compared to the average citizen - seeing the costs and trends just make the treadmill seem endless. Then you add in elder dependents, kids, and probably some extended family who will also need help. It tends to be overwhelming.

I'm coming to the conclusion "security" is an illusion and always has been, so I'm trying to take a different approach towards money moving into 2022.

> I'm coming to the conclusion "security" is an illusion and always has been, so I'm trying to take a different approach towards money moving into 2022.

Interesting that you put it that way - a few years back, when I was sort of floating in space the book "The Wisdom of Insecurity" by spiritual-entertainer Alan Watts, though a bit dated, was helpful for me on a personal level.

Nice! IMO this makes a lot of sense.

(I mean it feels super foreign to me but it's a much better explanation than "greed" or "yeah but the house prices")

Lack of psychological security in our society is an artifact of greed.

I don't disagree, but to put a finer point on it, I think it's an artifact of... systematically excessively enfranchised greed.

> Personally, I only started feeling safe when my savings edged up towards 1M.. but I may also be more anxious than most.

I'm sure a lot of us feel this way because you need some psychological threshold where you realize that even in the worst case scenario, you can keep yourself fed and still keep a roof over your head.

Make sure you hold on to those gains, a divorce could cut your safety net in half super quick.

This person gets it. While some may dream of avarice, some (like me) want enough to be able to whether this volatile uncertain, complex, and ambiguous (VUCA) America that I live in where, if you are not well off, you will suffer.

Of course, living to acquire money to acquire (the perception of) safety is itself a form of suffering.

The lack of a social safety net contributes to further suffering in the form of anxiety.

Of course, the market can change (narrator: inflation is at 7% in the US now while Argentina looks on and says, “hold my beer”), leaving your savings and best laid plans diminished.

Our form of capitalism is a capricious master.

I am with you on this one! I really don’t get it… I love in France (French riviera) and my salary despite being very good for the region is very far from the hundreds of thousands of FAANG companies in the US… and yet I more than once turned down offers from FAANGs because no amount of money can bet all the other benefits I get… 35h work week (no extra Hours), very relaxed corporate environment, 35 days of vacation a year (and you are forced to take them all), basically unlimited sick leaves, telework 4 days a week (and living 10 minutes from the office), living in a nice home next to the sea! No amount of money can compensate for the possibility to have plenty of time for yourself and your family!

Sorry if I assume too much, but I think you'd be thinking quite differently if you had to consider buying your first home on the French riviera now, on something like a 60.000-100.000 euro pre-tax salary.

I just did (although not my first, that one I bought 10 years ago)… sold may old apartment (still in the French Riviera) and with my wife we bought a very nice house 100m from the sea! Mortgage interest rates are great at the moment… 0.9% ain’t bad!

"Why do you need money? Aren't you already rich like me?"

Yeah the cognitive dissonance is fascinating in people all over the world. I hear the same responses from people here in California.

"Why don't you stop renting? Just buy a house like I did 15 years ago, taxes are so low!"

Right... your taxes are artificially low thanks to Prop 13.

"Why do we need high density housing? Just look further away from the city for cheaper housing, I'm going to stay put".

I literally sold my old apartment last year for almost the same price I got it for… so no profit. And my current home was bought this year… therefore considering the current housing market.

In SF/LA or SD? How is that possible? The entire market has moved significantly up in the last few years.

Don't forget to subtract sales commission and expenses.

In southern France… the French Riviera! I am not from the US!

Roughly how much did you spend on the home, if you don't mind me asking? I'm curious how expensive that area is.

Most homes that are near the sea are pretty damn expensive in the US. Or if not, have significant flooding, hurricane, and/or will probably be underwater thanks to climate change in 10-15 years.

Here homes are all built using either brick ore reinforced (like my home) and the climate is mild. Over the years there are hardly any damage… mine might only need to fix a bit of paint on a couple of corners… but 10 years old and no maintenance required so far (for the previous owner was a second home he barely used)

Isn’t that a very reasonable salary to be buying a home on? Especially at the upper end of that range.

Homes in that area are about 10x that salary - so no. Reasonable ends at 3-4x your salary. I would be surprised if you could get a loan if you're taking a mortgage out that is 8x+ your salary... but maybe you can in France? Not in the US!

That is not true… only sea view apartments and houses do have incredibly high prices… otherwise you can find an apartment of 100m2 for prices ranging from 200k euros to 500k. Many homes with garden in the area range from 450k to a million (depending on the location). If as a couple the household income is 100k or more a year it is not difficult at all to get a mortgage. In France is very hard to get fired… there is a much higher job security… and since we have universal healthcare we don’t even risk to not be able to pay due to a medical emergency! For a bank is less risky to lend you money! Life here is good!

500k is getting close to 10x the salary.

If you are married or in a pax it is getting closer to 5x not 10x

Just as a counter-point, I live and work in London. I can't imagine ever being able to buy a home here unless something drastically changes, house prices are close to 10x my annual salary.

> house prices are close to 10x my annual salary

Plenty of people in the world save for 20 years for a house.

https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/price-gdp-per-cap

And historically houses have always been hovering around the same 20x multiplier for desirable places, except for a few small blips like the postwar boom.

And of course stuff like the American westward expansion, because land was dirt cheap as were materials (everything was forested so you just had to start chopping, more or less).

It is… most of my colleagues own a house or an apartment and we all have more or less the same salary!

I think you get all of those things at the FAANG companies. You can set your watch by people arriving at 9 and leaving at 5, and disappearing for an hour to have lunch seemed pretty normal (that's 35h).

> I love in France

Freudian slip.

Probably XD

I'm contemplating a move to the Riviera (family reasons). Any general advice on the tech scene down there? My French is bad at present but I have quite a bit of room for manouevre...

Between Nice and Cannes there is the Sophia Antipolis technopole where various tech companies have offices. Most (like mine) use English as the official language used on premises. I have been living here for a decade and my French is not particularly good, mostly because I don’t use it much.

Are you in a big city? Love that part of the world but it ain't cheap. Maybe even the most expensive part of the EU outside of London.

I live near Cannes, in a town of 70k people. Not super cheap but not even that expensive!

How is life there?

Very nice! Plenty of people from all around the world (many international IT companies have offices in the area)… my group of friends have more than 7 different nationalities in it! It’s quieter during the winter and very lively during summer. Weather is amazing all year round… there are 16 degrees outside right now. If you feel the need for a something that only a bigger city can offer Canne is 10 minutes away by car and Nice 20.

Wow! I'm an IT student currently living in Antibes, working in Cannes and with quite a few friends from all over the world working in Sophia. It's a pleasure to see people from France on HN!

I live in Antibes too!

Captain Tibes!

You're living the dream my friend!

I do my best XD

Some of it is just an obsession with money, yes, but I think there are several drivers. I can really only speak for myself.

1. Healthcare costs: insane even with the good insurance I have. I'm chronically ill (though you wouldnt know it by looking at me) and I have to get a battery of simple tests done every year in order to not have my medicine withheld by my doctor (yes...they withhold it). These tests get expensive, with an MRI costing upwards of $2500 if necessary WITH my insurance. When I was on "public" insurance through an exchange I was paying $700/mo for even worse care. Now I pay $140/mo and that's "good". Because of my income if I lose my job my choices are COBRA (continuing insurance - really bad and expensive) or an exchange. Medicare (true "public" option) does not allow people with a certain level of assets to participate even if they have no income.

2. No guaranteed retirement: social security is simply a coffer congress raids periodically to fund the latest war/vote buying scheme. My generation will most like see significantly reduced and/or no social security according to the SSA. No company offers a pension anymore and most 401ks in tech don't match. This means every dollar you save is exactly what you get.

3. Absurd housing: I got fortunate and bought at the right time (thanks tech salary!) but I still have a mortgage 2x what my parents pay.

I make 4x the average family salary of my state. I still don't feel safe, and will not feel safe until I have paid off my house, saved at least enough for a 15 year retirement, and have guaranteed healthcare.

I don't think we should have a ton of "nanny state" benefits but the absence of any safety barrier at all to fall back on if things go wrong temporarily means that you necessarily have to become obsessed with money. Especially when you sit at the uncanny valley between middle and upper class, as we do in tech, and there really are no safety nets your tax dollars pay for available to you.

What some people do is make U.S. money while they’re young, and then move to a more stable country when they want to settle down

> At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places?

I think there are a few different types of people, some who think money buys happiness and too that I disagree. It however can buy other things, comfort, security, even freedom.

> Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

Making money doesn't mean that it is not fun or fulfilling either. Some people also get value in their life from working hard. Working at a FAANG for example, you might work on a project used by millions if not billions of people, some people would find a sense of achievement in that.

The cost of living is just so crazy high here though, $2.5m for a starter home in SV. More in some parts. You’d need a household income of 500k/yr to even qualify for that mortgage.

> $2.5m for a starter home in SV

While cost of housing is indeed crazy high, 2.5M for a starter home is quite an exageration.

Here's ~300 listings for under $1M:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,apartment_...

Pretty much all of those are nicer than any house I have ever lived in, lol.

A quick browse of real estate websites seems to show lots of nice places in SV for well under that amount.

For a certain definition of nice. If you are looking at family homes you’re quickly looking at 2M+ (with a few buildings priced so low that I have to wonder what is wrong with them).

What's considered a starter home? In England (well, the south-east of England), lots of people get started in a 1 or 2-bed flat (~60m²), maybe move up to a small terraced or semi-detached when they have kids.

A starter home in the US would be considered a dream home in many (most?) parts of the world. Garage, front yard, back yard, 3 bedrooms etc, all in a built-up area of around 1500-2000 sq ft (140-185 sq m)

And all of it on at least a quater-acre of land.

They just don't seem to do that kind of housing in much of the US due do zoning. It's all "single-family homes", with no opportunity for more mixed-use construction that would allow for density and cheaper accommodation, such as relatively low-rise buildings (i.e., less than six floors) with one/two bed flats, or even things like corner shops, community post offices, creches, and the like. All that's illegal, which is insanity.

I’ve done the roommating thing, and paid my dues living in small apartments. But at some point I wanted the comfort of a house with a garage, a hobby room, and a yard where the kids can run around.

So, yeah, different expectations.

Depending on your down payment. Some FAANGers just drop 4 mil on a couple of houses and rent one out. And 1.8M is an easy starter even this month.

well see, someone who is in a position to "just drop 4mil on a couple of houses" is top 1%, i.e. not representative for whole lot of ppl.

> At that point, aren't you well past the point where more money brings more happiness, even in high cost-of-living places? What's the point? Why not find a job that's fun and fulfilling?

From what I understand most top US software engineers intend to retire earlier using that money. Question to you and other similarly-minded Europeans here: Do you intend to churn web services until you are 67 years old (dutch state pension age starting from 2024)? Are you sure that idea of learning yet-another-JS-framework when you are 60 will sound as appealing to you ("fun and fulfilling job") as it does now?

No I don't plan to do that. I am investing the money I am making in Switzerland in holiday apartments in cheaper but more touristy European countries (so far only in Italy). The goal is that in 10/15 years (I am 33) I am done paying the mortgages and I can retire for good or at least work without really needing the salary.

In most cases companies can't magically make the work that need done more interesting, so the only thing they can do "easily" is to pay their employees more.

That strategy might work for some employees and not others.

And TBH, while work in FAANGs may not on average be more interesting than the most interesting startups out there, the kind of jobs vary wildly with smaller companies. It might be something that changes the world, or you may end up writing a CRUD app.

So the compensation level is actually a kind of bad-but-still-useful proxy for the quality of the work expected, at least it sets the lower limit. And of course, FAANG products do make significant impact (although not always positive). As long as you're OK with being a cog in a LARGE wheel. Not necessarily for everyone, but some people are fine and find fulfillment in that.

But why not just quit working for a salary altogether and pursue your "dreams"? I guess it turns out many people are not very imaginative with what they want to do with their lives and don't mind clutching onto their job even if money is not a big factor.

It's a myth that Americans are greedier than other people.

Few people want money for its own sake. Some people are competitive, they want to earn money for status reasons. Or they just want to advance their career and money is a follow-on from that. Other people want money so they can buy expensive things or live in a nice house. Others just want to support their family.

> It's a myth that Americans are greedier than other people.

You think? Just one thing I read between the lines before LED lights. Europeans had 1-200 W of lighting in a room, or even less. Americans had 400W+.

I move that some things aren't even noticed but more wasteful in the US.

Finding a job that’s fun and fulling and finding one that is very well paid doesn’t have to be a contradiction.

But there are multiple reasons why money is a bigger focus:

- less long term job security. And that lower paid fulfilling job might very well be less secure too. I want to secure my financials as quickly as possible.

- insane cost of housing. A family sized 1800 sqft house with a garden now routinely sells for $3M in my neighborhood. You’re looking at $120k per year in mortgage payments and another $40k in property taxes. That’s after a $750k downpayment.

- the cost of higher education for kids.

- the general cost of living.

We could all move to the French Riviera, I guess, or vote for a better system that isn’t a hellscape for a significant segment of the population, but for an individual who’s forced to live in the current reality, money is a short term fix.

Move to a different neighbourhood.

They want a single-family home in a major world city in a walkable neighborhood, moving is not an option.

I hear this a lot - it’s a non starter. There are only a few places that are walkable in the US, and they are all expensive.

The suburban hellscape where you can walk to a church more easily than a bar is simply not a substitute, even if housing were free of charge.

Or try to get how zoning fixed to allow for mixed-use.

How's that going to fix the problem of expensive single family homes in walkable neighborhoods?

While working for a FAANG in Europe me and a lot of colleagues have been offered to relocate to the US. With a big salary increase as you can imagine.

Believe me or not, very few people accepted. Surprisingly for me.

I'm a Googler working in Switzerland and have been offered the same package and I refused the offer almost on the spot. There are 3 reasons for me:

1) Salary change not worth it. Switzerland already pays a lot and for me it's the sweet spot for quality of living / disposable income. Considered the cost of living in SV I would be saving more or less the same amount of money regardless of the bump in compensation.

2) US working mentality is not healthy IMHO. Luckily I was able to experience the workaholic culture that my peers in the US show. Answering mail or reviewing code over weekends, late at night for their timezone, ... . If I am expected to do that to meet expectations thanks but not thanks. I value my work life balance too much. This compounds the 10/15 paid holidays days year vs 25 I currently enjoy.

3) I don't like commuting for that long. The 101 in SV is a nightmare and, honestly, I am not sure how people do that to themselves like spending 1+ hours each way every day. In Zürich it takes me 12 minutes door to door using public transportation.

To be fair regarding 3) nothing forces you to commute for an hour on 101.

That will be the case (riding a comfortable shuttle with WiFi) if you work in Mountain View and want to live in San Francisco (65km away). You can either move (much) closer to the office or just work in San Francisco (more likely if you find another employer).

The 45+min bus ride from SF is not exactly pleasant either. When I was in SF I took a daily shuttle that went on the more scenic I280, but staring at those meadows and hills got boring after a couple months. The GP can get to office in 12 minutes.

Moving much closer obviously makes the monetary aspect of the proposition much less enticing since the rent is ridiculous. And if you happen to hit peak traffic where everyone is trying to leave the office, even being physically close might not get you home in 12 mins.

If the rent in SF (with 1h commute) is fine, MTV wouldn’t be any worse.

I have lived within 15 mins car/public transportation of the office(s) I’ve worked at in SF and SV for years and paying the rent has been more than worth it.

> Believe me or not, very few people accepted. Surprisingly for me.

In a way, there's a selection bias: most of these employees already knew that they could get more in the same company by just relocating to a US office, and that it's not that hard to do. If they were still in Europe at this point, it meant that they had real reasons to stay.

a lot of people are in a situation where they could do the same amount of work, most likely with better people and not have the culture i described above, for 30-50% more cash and more equity (at face value although it’s potential). this has nothing to do with america. you have to be really loving your job to turn down that kind of change. its not about having enough. it’s getting a LOT more for the small price of a few zoom calls

One of the things the pandemic thought me is that I value my time a lot more then I do money. Just had to try it out. No way I'm going back.

> I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it.

The issue that arises when you hear about many large orgs is that they really don't have anything else to offer.

A job can be fun and fulfilling and better paying.

Most former FAANG employees do seem to like working in up and coming startups better with more control over the company vision.

> A job can be fun and fulfilling and better paying.

I agree, but I was replying to a comment that suggests people quit extremely well paying jobs because they can earn more elsewhere, and not because of culture etc.

But the comment you replied also didn't imply that people switching were sacrificing anything in terms of culture and so on. Everything else being equal, more money is better.

Of course you choose between staying at a place you know and trying a new place with better pay and some unknowns, so there's some risk involved, but in a lot of cases this risk is rather small.

I think a lot of people who earn $500k switch jobs exactly for the reason you mentioned. But a lot of times that also comes with a pay raise.

> I'll never understand the American thirst for money for the sake of it.

I hope I don't come off as abrasive but I don't think you've had enough money if you think this is American or applicable only to a small subset of people.

Greed has driven people forever, in different systems of government, from communism, to fascism and capitalism. Leaders have always had (or had access to) a ton of capital to influence and control different aspects of their lives.

Also making a ton of money can be an instrument for good. There are a lot of wealthy folks that donate a lot of their money because they have an excess.

My current contributions are tiny, comparatively, but as my compensation increases, so do my charitable contributions.

About making money for good... this is something I think about often, especially in my manufacturing businesses. Let me explain:

Say you were to pull in 50M USD in revenue to your co. over 20 years, you own a plastics processing factory for example and you sell plastic products b2b, maybe you are a broker between multiple plastics recycling depots for example, there are many ways for you to cause 500M USD in total damages that cannot be traced back to you (for now) in pollution costs

We should follow your example of charity and apply it more broadly, on a systemic level and establish businesses that are more sustainable

I'm not a scientist, I'm just ranting

I don’t really feel like I need to make charitable donations. That’s what taxes are for right? At least that’s something I like my goverment to take care of.

I assume you don't live in America.

America is an individualist country and individualism is rewarded. We don’t care about average people. We care about our own ethnicity, our own identity, our own family, our own self. We are just playing the game here. Don’t blame the player. Blame the game.