But point taken.
2. Convince them that it's necessary to stop the pandemic without giving any arguments.
3. Have them defend your measures in public forums and feel very smart.
It won't stop infection. But it greatly reduces that rate and, above all, your risk of death and the strength of the disease in general in case you do catch it.
> Convince them that it's necessary to stop the pandemic without giving any arguments.
The argument should be very clear: vaccines are a known and easy way to make the virus a non-threat, or a small one at that.
To that end, you can see the numbers for yourself after vaccination started[1] and how greatly the number of deaths and cases has reduced.
[1] see for example Brazil since June till now: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/brazil/
> Have them defend your measures in public forums and feel very smart.
Given this is a place where IT Big Corp and govts. are constantly critized, I don't think anyone here is defending this as an WHO or any institution ass kisser
really?
What's the fuzz about anti vaxxers always talking about "won't stop infection" or "stop the pandemic" - 1st this is not black and white - 2nd and nowhere I have seen that these are the actual arguments for these measures?
Seriously. Mitigating the damage from failure to contain and eradicate the virus when we had the chance (in the precious few early weeks where lockdowns had that potential, but guess what, the same people f'd that up) involves filter after filter after filter. Each filter reduces spread and severity by some amount. Masks reduce (but don't eliminate) transmission. Vaccines reduce (but don't eliminate) infections. Vaccines reduce the length of infection, reducing transmission. Lockdowns and social distancing reduce the spread. On and on. Every single measure is applying a filter that might only be 90% successful. That is no way a logical argument for no filter at all.
These people really don't understand how bad this pandemic would be if we had no mitigation measures at all. The entire hospital system would collapse and millions (more--probably tens of millions) would die. Yet that's what they constantly argue for. Yet forcing people to get a needle in their arm is "draconian".
We have enough data by now, worldwide, to clearly say that lockdowns were completely bullshit and ineffective. There is virtually no correlation with viral spread and lockdown status.
You're saying that ineffective, half-hearted lockdowns elsewhere were ineffective? Hold the phone.
Victoria, Australia. South Korea. Wuhan. New Zealand. Singapore.
These lockdowns eradicated the virus locally--for several months at a time; but they are precarious, leaky ships due to the virus spreading everywhere else. An effective worldwide lockdown was exponentially more difficult. But very large countries with the ability to isolate themselves from international travel did do effective lockdowns, so I will not be accepting your narrative above.
Can you talk us through exactly which rights you think are being violated?
I recall the left has been very vocal about "my body my right" when it came to some different kind of issue.
Funny that the standards don't hold very much.
That debate is about the state forcing you to do something.
This debate is about Google opting to not employ you.
Not even remotely comparable.
I am kind of tired of hearing that when ACTUAL DATA shows that vaccinated people transmit the virus just as well.
Yeah, it's not a binary problem but the reproduction rate drastically decreases with vaccine. Vaccinated people may transmit the virus, but they're less likely to get infected at the first moment AND less likely to spread. This is supported by ACTUAL DATA from everywhere, including Israel and Portugal.
Regarding abortion. Are pregnancies contagious now, creating a serious public health crisis?
the serious health crisis where mostly people with 3-4 comorbidities (or old age) are dying? It's rather a crisis when your population is not being very healthy in the first place.
Now, tell me, where do healthy 20 years olds go (who I guess you are able to emphasize with, or is that only yourself?) when they get in an accident? Is a cancer discovered at the prime of someone’s life “comormibidity”?
Google also won't employ you if you turn up to your interview with very bad breath. That's not a violation of a right to not clean your teeth.
You're seriously confused about what a 'right' is.
There is no medical secret anymore? Being vaccinated or not should be, and remain, a private decision - with your doctor as a counterpart. Your employer has nothing to do in it.
No I don't think that's a right is it?
I've always had to disclose vaccination status prior to the pandemic to my employer for travel reasons, for example.
2. Not having an entire generation and their aggregated centuries of experience wiped out is probably beneficial for the future of a society.
3. I am vaccinated and am going to get a booster this week because I am very smart.
Careful now, very smart person, this blade has two very sharp edges.
Citation needed.
Point 2 is false.
Point 3 is too vague to make any sense.
Why not fire people who drive cars - the risk of dying and killing other people is greater than Covid presents for most every age category...especially those ages that are working for Google. And you should be o.k. with that too.
And obesity doesn’t spike up at random intervals with enough extra hospitalisation to impede the healthcare system as a whole.
And obesity can’t be mostly prevented by getting a tiny low-risk jab in the arm every so often.
And they’re working on self driving cars precisely because it’s such a big cause of death, but those things are currently about as ready as a cure for aging. (As in: yes, but with huge caveats that make it a no in practice).
It's hilarious watching the "muh personal freedoms" people complain about private entities exercising their personal freedoms because it has bad overlap with their own. Either swallow the hard pills that come with "personal freedoms" or shut up about it.
Also haven't heard of just infecting others with obesity..
My risk of vehicular injury is not increased by being around you, even if you are a bad driver.
As for driving you are of course wrong, other bad drivers can affect your health.
Are there any studies on causation?
Completely reasonable to destroy someone's livelihood while they may not be at much risk of dying from the said disease?
Because, we are not even talking about preventing transmission at this point, in case you have not noticed. Vaccines only provide personal protection.
Herd immunity is still a thing.
I'm going to say it. As a left-libertarian, I see government and industry working hand in hand. The public is always being distracted from what the industry is doing, by being told it's their responsibility to clean up the mess. Let me take the lid off it so you can't unsee it:
1) The industry adds highly processed sugars and starches into foods, genetically engineers high fructose corn syrup into everything and overuses antibiotics for animals. As a result, we have unprecedented levels of diabetes and obesity in this country, even for kids. (And by the way this has correlated heavily with morbidity and mortality from this coronavirus.) https://www.dhhs.nh.gov/dphs/nhp/documents/sugar.pdf
What is the public told? Exercise consumer choice. Diet and exercise, take care of it yourself. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. The brainwashing gets so bad that they rose up in arms against Bloomberg's ban on giant sugary drink containers, in the name of "freedom".
2) The industry turns all farms into factory farms, as a result of capitalist competition so the hamburger can be $1 cheaper. Billions of animals are raised in appalling conditions. Chickens for example are caged with dung dropping from the animals above them, and can barely even spread a single wing. Their beaks are cut off so they don't peck each other. Pigs, turkeys and others are treated horribly as well. Antibiotics are overused in order to make them bigger, which might begin to lead to superbugs that make this pandemic seem like a walk in the park (I hope I am wrong) https://www.worldanimalprotection.us/blogs/antibiotic-resist...
What is the public told? Exercise consumer choice. Go vegetarian. You can change the world, etc. But this isn't your grandmother's farming industry. People are used to having cheap meat but they don't think about what happens behind the scenes. They even used to happily eat "pink slime" in hot dogs, McDonalds etc.
3) Plastic containers. While beer companies still use glass, companies like Coca Cola and Snapple have switched from glass to plastic, to save money on transportation, and so forth. But the materials are non-biodegradeable, so it produces externalities all over the world. Same with clothing companies and polyesther and other plastics. Instead of researching and switching to non-biodegreadeable plastic, they push their negative externalities onto the environment and people: https://theconversation.com/plastic-plastic-everywhere-airbo...
What is the public told? Exercise consumer choice. Opt out of plastic bags and straws. Some cities are now MANDATING this, yet the companies upstream continue to produce metric tons of this crap every day.
Oh yeah, also the public is told to RECYCLE, and that was mandated too, but it was revealed to be largely a scam in the USA: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/7025017...
4) Fossil fuels. We all heard of this one. But do you realize that the vehicle are locked into a monopoly of fossil fuels, and that the electric car could have been already invented if the government wasn't distorting the market subsidizing fossil fuels for all these decades against OPEC and others? They pollute the environment with carbon dioxide and other chemicals, they contribute to the greenhouse effect that makes the planet warmer, acidification of oceans.
What is the public told? Commute to the office. Take public transportation. Don't drive so much, etc. Well, in this case I actually agree, we need to address the demand side, too much waste with all those parked cars etc. And the pandemic made people realize they can work from home, and the industry is FURIOUS. But it was the largest drop in emissions ever.
5) Vaccines. The government and industry failed us with mask production early on, they had months to prepare and didn't. And the Trump government took out all the stops and "Operation Warp Speed" greenlighted mRNA vaccines. And they are FAST indeed. They just made one for HIV, even. But somehow ... lo and behold, this "warp speed mRNA industry" can't seem to update their vaccines for delta, mu, lambda. I mean, they clearly have the capability, and they can simply target the latest mutation. But they are engaging the government to mandate you inject yourself with LAST YEAR'S PRODUCTS, because they are selling like hotcakes all over the world.
What is the public told? Get a jab of last year's vaccine, or you lose access to your job, your entertainment, your restaurants, whatever. The companies are MANDATED in the USA to do what Google is reported to be doing here.
The initial curve was too steep and lots of morbidity because no one had immunity to the novel virus. Now that so many people have been exposed, natural immunity is shown to be more robust than vaccines (by the way what do you think the immunity after breakthrough infections is due to, the vaccine? that's what they will claim in their data LOL). But the government is going by inertia on how bad the omicron coronavirus is, and treat it with much more mandates than t the flu. But what gets me is that no is talking about the major effect of always putting responsibility and mandates on the individual it lets the industry off the hook! In this case the mRNA pharma industry from producing up-to-date vaccines like they do for the flu. The government and media is carrying water for them and helping them sell last year's product, so they have no incentive to cannibalize their own business with R&D. Imagine being forced to download unpatched Windows 95 for years in order to be allowed to get on the Internet. That's how this is.
So you see the government constantly telling the public to stop using plastic straws (while Coca Cola produces metric tons a day), to stop watering their lawns (while industries waste water), to go vegan (while factory farms raise billions of animals in abysmal conditions), to stay healthy (while putting sugar and corn syrup in everything), to recycle (while using more and more plastic).
George Carlin and Greta Thurnberg were right, there are people running the show, and they want you to be guilt tripping each other into cleaning up their mess so you never look upstream at where the problems come from. At least with fossil fuels, we have finally begun to do so.
And this is true in other states and countries, too, governments tell people to stop watering their lawns (while industries waste water), we have aquifers running dry and Day Zero for water around the world drawing closer while industries siphon their water to ship globally. Bolsonaro the "business friendly" president wants to clear away tons of rainforest and displace native tribes so he can grow Soy and more Cows for the world. Exports and capitalism at the expense of the environment, again.
There are people who say there is nothing wrong with capitalism, but. But no, these are quintessentially issues specifically arising from market competition and firms turning to government as an enabler, even against the people and the environment. Whether it's the government of Flynt Michigan letting their private buddies pollute the water supply, or privatization of water in Bolivia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_Water_War), or factory farms emerging as a result of cutthroat competition in agribusiness, private ownership and competition and capitalism are at the root of many of these issues.
As a left-libertarian, I recognize that government works with the capitalists (including bailouts to banks, stock market, whatever). And we the people need to call for reform of the system. But when they do, they are told "Bernie, Buffett, why don't YOU pay your taxes, and leave the system alone, capitalism is the best thing that's ever happened you socialist freak." These people are calling for common sense things that are done in many other countries, and they're social democrats, not socialists, btw.
I would start with UBI FUELED BY PIGOVIAN TAXES on all the above things. This will avoid the yellow vest protest phenomenon and align incentives correctly.
Read the above and tell me if you don't see a pattern...
Vaccines are just one of many examples of the big problem.