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Comment by virtualritz | Hacker News Reader

I have an Australian friend whose wife is Japanese. He learned speaking Japanese from her.

When they lived in Japan for a while he was frequently the subject of jokes about how "he speaks like a woman" among male Japanese native speakers.

See https://bondlingo.tv/blog/male-and-female-japanese-how-males...

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The same thing happened to a friend of my dad. A long time ago, the friend was a British diplomat living somewhere like Singapore and he made friends with the two Japanese sisters in the next apartment. They used to have tea and chat and he helped them practice their English. Being good with languages he soon picked up a lot of Japanese from them. One day he got invited to an event at the Japanese Embassy and was excited to be able to show off his secret language skills. However, any Japanese man he spoke to would react strangely and it looked like they were trying hard not to laugh. He eventually got someone to explain that he was using “women’s words”, and the effect of a dignified English gentleman in a tuxedo talking like that was hilarious to them.

This is a running joke among Japanese language learners, but less of an actual problem than you'd think. The really feminine words (atashi, kashira, ending sentences with wa etc) are trivially avoided, so you end up with neutral/excessively polite/gaijinkusai but not particularly feminine language.

For what it's worth, few foreigners master Japanese to the level where they could convincingly sound like a tough male/gangster, but unless you actually are in the Yakuza, this ability is not particularly useful. Sonai yuun yattara ippen washi no chinpo shabutte miruka?

> This is a running joke among Japanese language learners, but less of an actual problem than you'd think.

I have gotten some comments about my Chinese being somewhat feminine. I don't speak, so this is all based on text messaging. And Chinese doesn't have overt gender-of-speaker markers, so the issue persists even if you avoid those.

I particularly remember one person commenting that making the agreement / I'm-listening noise in two syllables, 嗯嗯, was "cute" where a man should have just said 嗯. Apparently, this is the kind of thing that will get you.

For what it's worth, in my face-to-face interactions with Chinese men, I got a lot more criticism for the fact that all of the acquaintances I ever mentioned were female than for my choice of words in the rare case where I spoke in Chinese. But again, speaking Chinese is mostly restricted to text messages for me.

> 嗯嗯, was "cute" where a man should have just said 嗯. Apparently, this is the kind of thing that will get you.

Chinese people that I have talked to in Shanghai laughed at me when I said I liked using stickers (表情包)/emoji on WeChat. Apparently, guys are hardly meant to use them and that stickers/emoji are for girls.

Personally, I didn't take heed of their advice nor cared as everybody has their own way of communicating. I use 嗯嗯 stickers whenever I feel like it instead of 嗯. I use 哦 sometimes instead of 嗯 to annoy people and act like I am paying attention.

As an Asian guy, most of my friends/acquaintances in China are female. I have no issues talking to Chinese guys but tend to get on well with females there I guess.

However, back in London where I grew up, almost all of my friends are male. Confused? So am I.. lol.

I disagree. Yes, it's trivial to avoid saying Atashi and ending sentence in wa, but feminine language differences are a lot more pervasive than that. There's a ton of subtle stuff, and you end up sounding strange if you aren't really careful. To just give one example, there are a ton of places you can choose to throw in an o- or not, just like in English, you can choose to say "the" or not. As in English, it's about pattern matching and getting used to the subtle frequencies for this stuff. Just like French people sound silly when they use "the" in the wrong places, a man sounds silly when using o- in the wrong places.

> To just give one example, there are a ton of places you can choose to throw in an o- or not, just like in English, you can choose to say "the" or not.

Definiteness marking is certainly an area where speakers of languages that don't do that get confused. But I'm not comfortable saying that there are a ton of places in English where you can choose to say "the" or not. In most cases, there's only one correct choice.

Going back over the nouns in my previous paragraph: (marking area[0] speakers[1] languages[2] I ton[0] places English you cases choice[1] [there])

[0] rival article already marked

[1] "the" permissible; presence and absence are both fine

[2] "the" possible; presence may raise eyebrows

I think GP was talking about honorific/humble o not the object marker o, and chose a poor metaphor. Because honorific/humble o is often a signal for feminine language... there was a trending tiktok video about prefixing "toilet" with "o" for example.

If I meant the direct object postposition, I would write “-wo” not “o-”.

The problem with o- is that both men and women use it, but women use it slightly more, and getting that right is hard for a non-native.

If the overusing of the articles makes me sound like the Starfire, so be it!

I think that exists in most languages, including English! I also don't think it's too much of a problem, since once you have exposure to a broader spectrum of people you start to pick up what is masculine / feminine speech and how different social classes talk.

This is one of ways I can tell whether email was written by the native English speaker. Articles are missing or in wrong place.

The plurals is other dead giveaway. Apparently articles and plurals are very difficult in English, but to me--a native English speaker--they are the most natural thing in the world.

Of course I'm complete shit at the Latin-based languages because I can never get the masculine/feminine words right.

It happens in some of the plains tribal languages. One of my female bosses at a grant program learned to speak her native language from her uncles. Her female relatives tease her about speaking like a man.

Yes, in Lakota men and women speak differently. My mom used to laugh at women (usually non-Lakota) who would speak like men.

She speaks Dakota. I'm pretty sure that includes Nakota speakers as well.

Yes. The difference between the dialects of Lakota, Nakota & Dakota is that the L's in Lakota are replaced by N's and D's in their respective dialects.

There is a bit of word drift too.

What is curious about this, is that his wife didn't find it off-putting that her husband was speaking woman-lingo all this time.

Good point - my wife is hispanic and I've learned Spanish mostly from her. She's quick to correct me when I use a phrase that she uses all the time that men shouldn't (like "que feito", for example).

Spanish varies a lot depending on the country, but I've noticed this:

My female Spanish speaking friends use: Holi, Porfi (Hi/Please)

While the male ones use Hola and Porfa (Hi/Please)

This is typical Flanders-tongue but are interesting. The goal is not sounding femenine, is sounding childish. Something that can be useful

Porfa is used only when the context is casual. Porfi is extra-casual and childish but men can use it perfectly in the correct context. An example

> Por favor (Please) let me eat cake.

Not.

> Porfa (pleaaase, more pleading and casual) ...

No way, is for later.

> Porfiiii... (please,please,please... big eyed Cat of Shrek mode)

Well, okay...

> (bingo!)

In Spain using a childish tone by men is perfectly acceptable as long as you turn to the normal mode fast and you have a purpose.

Can be used to express a very close relationship with your audience. As a cute effect.

And much more important, can be used as comic relief.

When mimicking a child you reduce your level of perceived menace to other. Is like saying "Just joking, hehe", therefore you are triggering a calming effect in your public. Holi is the worst offender, but a big tall man talking to an afraid children could use it without any problem to express "I don't want to hurt you". Saying directly "I don't want to hurt you" could sound threatening instead (There is an implicit "I don't want... but I could")

An adult man will not need to calm other adult stranger normally, so in this context can do more harm than good. Never use it all the time, and never in business or formal context because you simply lose leverage.

Perhaps she is into really-subtle-and-really-long-term practical jokes.

That's a good point. My partner is Japanese and corrects me whenever I say something that would be considered a feminine way of saying things.

Maybe it's really only the men who actually care?

This is very common in Japan, it is honestly very cringe-inducing to see Western males coming off this way, it seems needy and submissive more than anything.

English actually has different languages for 12 year olds and adults. Vocabulary like “cringe” is fine for kids, but makes you come off as judgmental and unpleasant when used in a more formal context.

I keep hoping that word will eventually eat itself.

The only way that will happen is if adults start using it. Next time you meet a 12 year old who says something is "cringe", tell them they are "cringe" for using the word "cringe".

I wonder if this will continue to be a generational thing, I still have a smattering of eighties Valley-speak because that was pretty popular in my teen years. Maybe people who are in their early teens now will be as likely to call something they don't like "cringe" in their fifties as I am to call something "bogus".

It's fine to use the word "cringe", but it might be cringe to use the phrase "it's cringe".

Find a better word for that feeling you get when you hear fingernails on chalkboards and we can use that instead on this formal Hacker News setting.

> Find a better word for that feeling you get when you hear fingernails on chalkboards

Aroused?

>it seems needy and submissive more than anything.

Never before did the idea of being reborn as a woman in Japan in a next life sound that bad.

The funny thing is, Japanese women don't really come off that way, it's just how they talk and they are quite adept at achieving their goals with their "feminine" language. One gets the impression that many of the Western men who learn Japanese from their wives and girlfriends are actually trying to emulate this ability to manipulate their world through softer / more social language and achieve similar levels of success, but it doesn't really work for them and seems sociopathic instead. Hence, the cringe.

Interesting. Would "simping" be a better term than sociopathic? Obviously that's not necessarily what's going on, but Japanese is already so contextual, I imagine it's difficult to separate/rationalize how someone speaks the way they do from the why.

That’s not a bad way to describe it.

The persistence of this phenomenon has puzzled me for decades. From the 1980s, I have asked Japanese women who are married to foreigners, "Since you care about how your husband is perceived in Japanese society, why don't you correct him away from overtly female speech habits?" The usual reaction is to be simply dumbfounded at the question. I've never talked to a Japanese woman who reacted like, "Hey, that's a good idea."

I speak “female“ Kansai dialect because that's what I hear all the time from my wife. When I speak to other Japanese people they find it pretty hilarious.

I'm learning Japanese (very slowly and more of a hobby) and being a caricature of a "gaijin who speaks like a woman" has always been a fear of mine haha.

Fun fact, katakana (more sharp and right angled lines) used to be for men and hiragana for women (more round and swift).

I think I am missing the punchline.

Japanese is gendered

That is probably why.

I feel this in my own life, as an European grown up mostly around my mother, sister, and younger female cousins. My father lived abroad for long periods of time.

Women nowadays keep assuming I'm gay due to my mannerisms.

https://notalwaysright.com/a-gender-fluid-household/157967/ . Short version: 11 year old living only with women picked up practices about how to wear at towel, what to shave, wearing mascara, etc. that his mother's boyfriend both supports and gently points out they are typically gendered.

This strikes me as very strange...

How did the mom not realize that her kid was shaving his legs and wearing mascara? I guess it would be one thing if the kid was doing it with intention, but he clearly wasn't. How did she never talk to her son about that?

Don't forget bias error. The linked-to site gets contributions from around the world. There's 45 million mothers in the US, so source population of about 100 million mothers. If 0.1% of families have no other male presence that's 100K families. If 0.01% of these mothers don't notice [1], that's still 10 families.

And it's the unusual which make it to sites like these. ("When dog bites man, it's not news. But when man bites dog, now that is news!")

[1] Or it could be the mother didn't know how to bring it up, or thought she was being supportive of her son's choices.

I feel like if the boy went to school with male students the other boys would make fun of him until he conformed to the standard behavior, or until he decided he didn't care if people made fun of him.

... yes. Which is probably why the text says "She laughs and apologizes after [Stepdad] tells her I am lucky I've never showered at school or I'd be a laughing stock" and "I'm SO GLAD he was around before I started high school; I can't imagine that would have been a pleasant experience doing things the way I'd always done them."

Could other 11 year olds spot a boy using mascara, a differing from one with thick eyelashes?

Or tell that someone is shaving his legs when there isn't yet even peach fuzz on his chin?

I couldn't, but I'm pretty oblivious to such things.

> Could other 11 year olds spot a boy using mascara, a differing from one with thick eyelashes?

I think they would just default to making fun of him for wearing mascara. (source: i have thick eyelashes)

> Or tell that someone is shaving his legs when there isn't yet even peach fuzz on his chin?

definitely not.

> I couldn't, but I'm pretty oblivious to such things.

as am i, but i've learned that many other people are oddly skilled at picking up on these things.

Well, there's a growing trend against bullying. Personally, bullying toughened me up, and it affected me in ways that I am glad for. Of course it could have gone wrong, too.

eh, i think i am largely glad the whole bullying + male chauvinism thing is slowly dying out.

i think the next step is recognizing that this is a problem that needs to be confronted for both men and women. "toxic masculinity" among men is frequently nowadays talked about and criticized, but i think women are given a bit too much of a pass in holding pretty shitty gendered/trad expectations of men.

I couldn't use chapstick in elementary school because of the relentless bullying it inevitably triggered. Not just toward me, but any male that dared to hydrate his lips. That sort of reaction made me super averse toward any sort of preening-type of behavior, lest I be perceived as feminine.

Even now, I'm more comfortable if I look at least a little unkempt, as if I work outside with my hands or something. I consciously know it's dumb, but my wife expresses preferences for that unkemptness in me as well.

Did any of these kids ever chop wood outside in the winter or hunt?

No, they either ran home to watch Dragonball Z or Pokemon depending on if they had cable or not.

Probably not. American Masculinity is both violently enforced and generates a bunch of whiny cry babies. I mean, just look at Donald Trump.

I wonder why this comment is getting down-voted. I am talking about my own experience, and I also acknowledge that it could have gone wrong. What exactly is down-vote worthy here?

"Could have gone wrong" is a mild phrase which doesn't reflect the reasons why there is trend against bullying.

An amputee might find strength and toughness in learning to adapt to being without an arm. That doesn't mean we go around encouraging people to cut off their arms. I suspect most amputees would rather not have to have that experience in the first place.

Quoting "Bullying: A Module for Teachers" at https://www.apa.org/education-career/k12/bullying under "Myths about bullying"

> Many beliefs about school bullying are not supported by current research. These are among the most common myths that even some teachers have been known to endorse: ...

> Being a victim builds character.

> Another misconception is that bullying is a normal part of the childhood and adolescence experience, and that surviving peer harassment builds character. In contrast to this view, research findings clearly show that being bullied increases the vulnerabilities of bullied children. For example, we know that children who are passive and socially withdrawn are at a heightened risk of getting bullied and these children become even more withdrawn after incidents of harassment (Schwartz, Dodge, & Coie, 1993).

How many other people suffered, in being part of the same bullying environment from which you drew your character?

I can't speak for those who downvoted you, but the implication of your post (whether intentional or not) is someone might be doing someone a favor by bullying them. (You are "glad" that it happened.) I rolled my eyes at the image of a person punching people in the face and then lecturing them on how they did them a favor.

Gendered in the West maybe. Plenty of men in Pakistan and Afghanistan wear kohl, dye their beard with henna, stroll hand in hand etc.

Sure. But this story is clearly labeled "Australia", and Pakistan and Afghanistan have their own gender-based customs. So your point is .... that gender practices are not universal?

I mean, growing up in the US I heard about how French women didn't shave their armpits. As an Italian example, Sophia Loren - https://fineartamerica.com/featured/sophia-loren-on-a-poster... . So it's not like these have been universal Western practices even in my lifetime.

That was a fun read

This is the best anime I've ever watched.

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