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Comment by nicopappl | Hacker News Reader

I have the privilege of owning a Happy Hacking 2, it has topre keys. I used it for about a year. And I hated it! It's insanely noisy, to the point of distraction. It's so damn loud. But the dealbreaker for me is how heavy and deep the keys are. It's just too much energy and travel time for efficient typing IMO. After long sessions my fingertips felt sore from the blunt damage of pushing down the keys.

But I'll recognize they have some merit. The chunky feeling has a sense of physically I never experienced in other keyboard. The 60 keys and compact form factor is great for transport and leaves a lot of room for other things on your desk (this is actually super useful). The physical switches for changing the layout are very handy. And honestly the thing look like it could survive an impact from a deep space object. I would be surprised if it starts to show wear within the next 10 years.

I still prefer my cheap Cherry Mx-Board 3 with brown cherry keys. The thing is clunky and ugly, but the more muted noise and lower pressure required to activate the keys is what I'm comfortable with.

I'm so sorry for my former colleagues that had to go through my topre period and deal with the noise I even personally was very annoyed with.

Edit:spelling

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I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them.

The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive!

I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them.

My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpad keyboard (TrackPoint Keyboard II Bluetooth 4Y40X49493): the island version (current) is more comfortable than the previous version where the keys were touching (SK-8835 family if you want a numpad) as it leaves some room for nails.

Mechanical keyboards seem preferred by gamers, but in my opinion, they make little sense in an office setting.

However, my new favorite mouse is the Logitech G600 that's popular for MMOs: after purchasing a few different mice that had been recommended here and testing them all, it's the one that fits the best in my hand, even if it's still too large (why can't they make smaller mice??)

What I like the most is how it has side keys that can be mapped in the firmware to physical keys (persistent setting) and to elaborate actions in AutoHotKey!

Now give me the same thing 30% smaller, wireless with bluetooth, with a left hand option, and I'd happily pay $200 for it!

Exactly the same sentiment. My yearlong experiment to try to love mechanical keyboards left me with a thousand euro hole in my wallet and physical problems spanning from fingers to upper body musculature. I loved the tactile feel, but hated what they did to my body.

I think mechanical keyboards are just too high, with excessive travel. You sort of have to keep your hands floating in the air, which transfers stress to your neck, shoulders and upper body. No palm support I tried offered any substantial relief, probably due to the long travel and finger contortions required.

Second issue, perhaps I'm a poor typist, but my fingertips frequently got stuck between the keys, causing mistakes by triggering adjacent keys.

One day I got tired and bought a 10 euro keyboard from the grocery shop. Noname, slimline, rubber domes. What a relief that was.

These days I swear by Logitech MX Keys. Best keyboard I have ever touched.

> One day I got tired and bought a 10 euro keyboard from the grocery shop. Noname, slimline, rubber domes. What a relief that was.

Actually, I had the same thing happen to me during my mechanical keyboard experiment when I had to use some old keyboard found in the basement on a raspberrypi.

It felt SO GOOD, SO COMFORTABLE, that I said "screw that experiment, I'll accept that I'm an uncultured swine who likes membrane keyboards!"

I decided to stop trying to fit my tastes to what's popular, and instead added that quirk to my list of differences with normal geeks (who hate many of the things I like, such as Windows...)

Then I bought myself a Thinkpad SK-88xx membrane keyboard new in a box at a price that'd make even mechanical keyboard snobs cry, and I've been happy ever since with regular Thinkpad membrane keyboards :)

» I decided to stop trying to fit my tastes to what's popular

Funny enough, for me it was the inexpensive (~ USD 25) no name "blue" switches keyboard that I like best. They are very clickity clackity. However, I work from home now so it works out.

It doesn't have a number pad which I thought would be a deal breaker but I don't mind much at all. Even the legendary Thinkpad keyboard is not good enough anymore. In fact, I went to the Thinkpad bios and switched the fn <-> Ctrl keys back to the same layout as on my USB keyboard.

> Funny enough, for me it was the inexpensive (~ USD 25) no name "blue" switches keyboard that I like best. They are very clickity clackity. However, I work from home now so it works out.

That sounds exactly like my personal experience. I purchased a cheap Ajazz ak33 for around USD 25 and I loved the feel and response. It's a shame that no one within a 30 feet radius shared my appreciation of it's clickyness, and now it sits on a shelf gathering dust.

I find average mechanical keyboards to be perfect for my typing style. They never cause me hand strain, stress, tension, etc. Membrane keyboards, however - and especially whatever you call the keyboards on Macbooks - feel like I'm trying to finger drum on glass. I end up with tons of hand pain.

However -- the qualifying fact is that I am a pianist, from the age of 5. I believe that a lot of the biomechanics I learned at the piano keyboard transfer to the computer keyboard, whether I want them to or not. I can't help but try to type the way I play piano to some degree -- in large part, this means an elevated wrist, a pretty high finger force and more of a hammer-type finger action rather than a pressing-type acting.

A very important part of any instrument training is learning correct technique, and a large reason for this is the prevention of injury. I've had decades to adopt the correct technique for keeping my wrists elevated and my fingers hanging down without tension. And I'm sure the increased finger strength helps, too.

And that’s why we always leave an insightful comment (thanks gene!)

To you and the parent poster and the grandparent poster, I wonder if you've ever tried a mechanical keyboard with low profile keys and keycaps?

I enjoy mechanical keyboards myself, and even so, I found myself liking the low profile ones a lot better. Like you said, I love the tactile feel, and I also find regular sized mechanical keyboards too high.

I currently use two: The Keychron K1 "Ultra thin" for work and the HAVIT Low Profile one. Both are a joy to type with. They are as thin as any rubber dome keyboards and provide a better type feel.

So many people seem to rant and rave about mechanical keyboard that I'm still willing to give them a try!

Could you recommend a model that's not too noisy and doesn't require too much force, but which also has the page up and page down keys on both sides of the up arrow?

This seems a rarity for mechanical keyboards, while it's quite standard on laptops. Since I spend most of my time on laptops, I'd like to at least match the general shape for the features I use the most- like shift-page up and shift-page down scrolling in consoles.

Your best bet for mechanical switches that aren't too noisy are probably Cherry MX Browns.

I’m using silent red and I don’t find them too noisy.

One of the main advantages of a mechanical is that they are often programmable so you no longer have to rely on software based methods to change key mappings. Caps lock is Escape everywhere all the time.

I have Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl, like a UNIX-style keyboard. Otherwise, my requirements for a mechanical keyboard are simple:

1. High quality, tactile switches (Cherry MX Blues or Browns) 2. Programmable keymapping 3. TKL layout 4. 6NKRO 5. PBT double-shot molded keycaps (not ABS) 6. Steel baseplate with as little flex as possible 7. Removable USB-C cable 8. Black or grey (dark colours)

I don't care at all about RGB, that's a gimmick to me. I'm not a gamer. I need something I can blaze on when doing heavy Vim editing or writing (I type +/- 150 wpm) after a nap and a few cups of good coffee.

I also prefer a narrow bezel, something like this: https://www.duckychannel.com.tw/en/Ducky-One-Golden-grey-TKL

> I don't care at all about RGB, that's a gimmick to me. I'm not a gamer.

I once spent time writing a CPU, RAM, and IO barmeter using RGB backlight, using one color and one line of keys for each indicator.

It's VERY practical for a sysadmin!

> Caps lock is Escape everywhere all the time

This would be a limit: I use AHK to have chorded keys: - caps is esc if used alone, control if used with another key - enter is enter if used alone, control if used with another key - shift left is page up if used alone, shift if used with another key - shift right is page down if used alone, shift if used with another key - alt left is home if used alone, alt if used with another key - alt right is home if used alone, alt if used with another key

This makes many shortcuts very easy: ctrl-l can be done one handed with the right hand by pressing enter-l

Likewise, to control-shift-home, I press caps+shift left+alt left.

To move between tabs, on the left caps then shift left, or on the right enter then shift right.

Better: the two thumbs "beginning then end of file" to have a quick look at some code: right alt then left alt (so right alt=alt, left alt=home) and the same 2 keys but in the opposite order, left alt then right alt (so left alt=alt, right alt=end)

This is so super practical with AutoHotKey...

This is super interesting. I absolutely love AHK, too. But can you please clarify how you achieve, "caps is esc if used alone, control if used with another key"? Is it based on whether the key is still down (pressed) vs. up (released)?

If you don't mind, can you please share your script? My Capslock-as-a-modifier setup is very simple. I just use Capslock + various keys to do stuff:

   Capslock & p::Send, {PgUp}
   Capslock & n::Send, {PgDn}

Of course, I'm happy to share my script!

I've already posted it here, check my posting history.

Since you are the 2nd person to ask, I might even put it on github!

Silent reds are also known as pink, in case anyone is looking for them. They were exactly what I was looking for after trying brown (still too loud and a little too much force required), silver (way too many false clicks when I rested on the home row), and various Zilents (OK, until I tried the pinks and realized I don't like tactile switches at all).

Vortex Tab90M with silent reds. Best keyboard I've ever owned. Compact, quiet, mechanical, just fits all my needs for both work and gaming.

Sorry but like most of the 70% the up arrow has "shift" on the left, and "end" on the right.

The closest is the GMK UNIQEK C70, with pagedown on the right... but shift on the left. I might be able to remap FN, and to find a cap with the right slant... but then it's not low profile.

Take a look over this Keychron brand. They've got a lot of different set ups.

I've got two with Gateron Browns, I rate them very, very high.

>Second issue, perhaps I'm a poor typist, but my fingertips frequently got stuck between the keys, causing mistakes by triggering adjacent keys.

This is a new one on me. I have never heard of this happening to anyone. My recommendation for you would get a low profile mechanical keyboard like the Keychron K3 or Logitech G915

To be clear, I did not mean that my fingers are caught between the keys. More like I often felt like I'm hitting keycaps sideways. I could not always discipline myself to operate the keyboard like a 1970s typist. This was very distracting and caused errors. Probably I bottomed out too much, instead of just breaking the click? I'm sure there's technique that can be mastered.

I guess I'm a slimline keyboard person and thanks for the recommendation. Perhaps I will try a mechanical slim as well, to fully close this experiment. For the moment I enjoy just getting some work done on the MX Keys, it is an absolute delight. Can't say enough good things about it.

For some reason this happens to me with the MacBook laptop keyboards (the new ones). I don’t know what I‘m doing wrong, maybe it’s because I come from a MK with rather deep keys and all? I haven‘t figured it out yet.

After going to the Keeb Life (2x Ergodox + Iris + Mistel Borocco) for ergonomic reasons, i have some thoughts.

If using a mechanical keyboard caused the need for contortions, it was a bad fit for you. Full stop. Whatever layout you ended up with was built for the needs of someone else.

I generally tell people who're interested in the Keeb Life to grab something random off Amazon. If they want something known, I point them at the Code keyboard, which is 90% a basic keyboard, 10% swag. Nothing weird except some clever use of the function keys and some entirely optional helpful things for programmers in the layout.

IANAMD, but I'd bring up this with one. The relaxed "floating hands while typing" posture is one that a lot of people end up passing through. It works for some but not others and comfortable typing should be regardless of the keyboard.

> Second issue, perhaps I'm a poor typist, but my fingertips frequently got stuck between the keys, causing mistakes by triggering adjacent keys.

To me this is one of benefits of harder to press keys: Accidentally touching a key is not enough to trigger them but intentional keypresses go through. It's the same difference as between piano and light synth keyboard. The thing about long travel is part avoiding accidental keypresses but also that you don't have to press the key to bottom and can avoid the jolt.

Not all mechanical keyboard share the same key travel and profile height.

Mainly you can look up Chocolate switches.

[Example](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06...)

The mx keys is amazing. It feels so sexy to type on, and I can type far faster and more accurately than anything else I've used.

I've also not charged the thing in months and it doesn't seem to care, which blows my mind.

Topre Realforce aren't really mechanical keyboards — they are rubber dome keyboards. They get lumped together with them only because they are high quality rubber domes, with a luxurious feel.

I would best compare Topre to Key Tronic Lifetime and ErgoForce rubber dome keyboards from the '90s. Both those and Topre are full-travel, and have a distinct bottom-out feel, but they still require you to bottom out. They are also comparable in sound, IMHO.

BTW. I prefer low-profile rubber dome/scissor switches or full-travel mechanical Cherry MX Clear. I've used a Topre keyboard a few weeks at work some years ago but my fingers starting aching from having to push past that big bump in the key travel.

Except they aren't rubber dome switches, the rubber is just part of the spring mechanism while the switching itself uses capacitive sensing.

Similarly, infamous Hall effect switches, as well as the similarly rare optical switches, don't use mechanical component for switching itself... Rubber dome switches, however, technically do (switching happens when the keys cause physical hit on the membranes)

P. S. Yes, I'm riffing about how it doesn't really matter.

Libertouch was also a luxury high quality rubber dome keyboard like Realforce, but it's not known outside Japan. It uses simple electrical contact switch rather than capacitive, but feeling/mechanism are similar to Realforce. It also support changing weight by replacing rubber. US ANSI layout is also available.

Libertouch is the best feeling switch I've ever used including Realforce/HHKB. I love this but its full layout with tenkey is pain.

Are any of these still available for purchase? I saw a JP model but like they were discontinued

It's gone so only available on Japanese second hand markets like Yahoo Auction and Mercari. You need to use proxy service to import. Some are brand new.

https://buyee.jp/mercari/search?keyword=%E3%83%AA%E3%83%99%E... https://buyee.jp/mercari/search?keyword=libertouch&category_... https://buyee.jp/item/search/query/libertouch?translationTyp... https://buyee.jp/rakuma/search?keyword=libertouch

The MX Clear was the first switch I used that made me feel like I understood Mech keyboards. It eventually lead me to my current favorite switch the Zilent 67g.

You don't seem to understand that you don't need to bottom out your switches to actuate them. I have Kailh Copper switches which barely require me to push them down very far in order to actuate. Also they're pretty quiet. You can have your preferences, but blanketly saying that all mech keyboards "require too much strength" and are "loud" is wrong. The "expensive" part isn't even true in all cases.

This is a skill and it isn’t free. First, you have to learn the contact height with all your fingers for all angles. Second, the balance between the weight of your fingers and the key resistance must be fine enough, or you get fatigue in finger-extending muscles, or misclicks, or misrepeats. Topre even made RealForce variants to address this specific issue. I’m sure it’s not so hard and you mastered it, but an average random person has to try few keyboards before finding the one that fits and each try has a learning curve, and the last ones can be expensive (“Oh, it seems that I want speed non-mx tactile 55g with orings and media keys, but there are only three models, one doesn’t ship to my region, and the other two are too high based, one pretty overpriced”). That’s why mechanical keyboard guys often have a handful of them, cause all are nice but only one really fits.

The dexterity required to only press the key (roughly) half way to the actuation point is just as strenuous; you might as well be bottoming them out every time. I prefer extreme short travel keyboards for this reason. Quieter, shorter key travel distance, much less fatigue.

In my experience, you hypothesis is wrong.

> The dexterity required to only press the key (roughly) half way to the actuation point is just as strenuous

You don't have to only press the key to the actuation point, you have to press it at least to it. You can then stop anywhere between that point and the bottom, which is easier to do with long travel keys.

In my experience this works best with lighter keys (requiring less force). I found this out when messing around with a cheaper mechanical keyboard[0] by realising that I had just stopped pressing the keys all the way. I wasn't even looking to "type better" or whatever, I was just curious about all the mech hype and was trying one out.

Getting back to membrane keyboards, in my case a 2013 MBP, was actually painful because the keys actually require more force to move past the rest position, but they then become very soft, so all the force becomes speed which then stops all of a sudden when I hit the bottom. To me, it's practically impossible to not bottom out the MBP keyboard because of the short travel. Also, since I got used to pressing the keys with too little force, I find I actually miss a lot of the keys, which had never happened before.

---

[0] Drevo Gramr with Outemu Brown switches

Can you show me an example of what you mean by shorter key travel keyboards? I think I'm in the same boat as you.

You can check the Keychron K3. These use low profile switches have 3mm max travel distance.

> The "expensive" part isn't even true in all cases.

Being a cheapskate but wanting a mechanical keyboard with swappable switches, I bought a Redragon K552 off Amazon (88 key version) for $28. The Outemu reds are fine, but I swapped the alphabet and control keys for browns.

I have no regrets.

I bought a Tecware Phantom 104-key keyboard with outemu browns for $50. Per-key RGB and came with replacement switches - no regrets here either.

Over the years I’ve become convinced that not “bottoming out” is a fetish that most people should not be trying to adopt.

“Bottoming out” is just “typing”. You press the key. Find a keyboard that feels good when you press the keys.

I have an IBM model M and a Pkr3 with Cherry MX Browns sitting on the shelf.

What I’ve discovered over time is that I’m some kind of peasant when it comes to typing.

What I really like are thin, low travel laptop keyboards and trackpads instead of mice.

Small, symmetrical with everything centred below an external monitor.

I love the idea of mechanical keyboards but the reality is that actuation force and the key travel just make me wrists hurt after a while.

Frankly, the old Thinkpad keyboard had the best combination of travel and feel ever put together. I can understand people preferring a different trackpad, and not particularly liking the TrackPoint, but the keys themselves were bloody amazing. Low travel, low effort, pre-bottom feedback with no unnecessary noise. (I used to use the USB version of the keyboard with my desktop machines, even though I needed a separate number pad to make some of the work easier.)

I think I remember the keyboard you're referring to- the keys had squared corners and slightly concaved shape? The newer Thinkpad keyboards have much different- and worse- flat keys with rounded corners, and mushy. I've actually come to prefer the much shorter Macbook style keys nowadays.

That's the one. And I'm not fussy one way or another about the keycaps - I loved the old ones, but I can see the arguments for the "island" style as well - it's the switches underneath that were the thing.

Same! I like both but I have a slight preference for the flat ones given the small distance between the keys that make it easier to do many things - including repositioning my fingers (F and J have a nub, but the spaces between the keys make repositioning easier, especially with nails)

> What I’ve discovered over time is that I’m some kind of peasant when it comes to typing.

You and me both. I love low travel keyboard that make little noise. I've learned to accept my personal tastes, even if they don't match what's expected of me.

BTW I wonder how much of a learned preference mechanical keyboards are? At first, I thought they were preferred by older geeks because of a nostalgia factors, but they also seem popular with gamers.

I just don't understand. I have a friend on the spectrum who's (the best I can say) "physically violent when typing on his keyboard", to the point I wouldn't let him use my laptop as I'd fear for my keys.

He loves mechanical keyboards because they tolerate the abuse, and I just don't understand that: Isn't it better to not have to use that much force, and to not feel pain in your wrist and fingertips?

I wonder how much of the mechanical keyboard popularity is just gaming marketing? I also prefer lower key travel and quieter keys. It is just lest straining.

Take for example expensive gaming chairs that look like race car chairs. The side support makes no sense since gamers do not experience high g-forces. The side support lowers mobility which is actually really bad for your back.

> What I really like are thin, low travel laptop keyboards and trackpads instead of mice.

I feel the same way. Oddly enough, one of the best keyboards I have ever used is the Google Pixelbook's. It has truly spoiled my fingers for other keyboards.

One thing that messing around with mechanical keyboards has taught me is that I don't need a full keyboard. Compact TKL's work best for me. The Logitech MX Keys mini has a small enough form factor and comes closest to the Pixelbook's feel.

A lot of people like low profile. There's even mechanical switches for these. I think Kailh Low Profile Choc being one of the more popular ones.

(why can't they make smaller mice??)

People do make smaller mice. But the downside is that they are generally cheapies, and not very robust. I have bought several over the years from supermarkets when I found I'd left my usual mouse behind.

When it comes to left-handed mice, it's often easier to obtain a symmetrical mouse, and change its handidness in software.

I use my mice so much that I have a problem with wireless mice forever running out of batteries. "Up to six months usage": bullshit. I'm lucky to get two weeks out of a set of batteries. So I stick to wired keyboards and mice.

> People do make smaller mice. But the downside is that they are generally cheapies, and not very robust

The last mouse I had was a white Apple Magic Mouse: still a bit on the large side, yet much smaller than the Logitech G600.

But multitouch is not as good as 12 dedicated keys for shortcuts!

> When it comes to left-handed mice, it's often easier to obtain a symmetrical mouse, and change its handidness in software

Symmetrical could do, but then I'd miss the 12 keys right by my thumb!

Not sure what is your ideal small mouse, but there are some good small "gaming" mouses though:

Xtrfy MZ1 Coolermaster MM710 Razer Viper Mini

I'm currently using the first one and it is a great mouse. No special software, no BS, very light, great shape, and a cable you don't even notice that you have. Don't know about the rest, but before this one I had Logitech G Pro wireless, and it was great, but a bit too large.

I get the impression that mechanical keyboard people tend to be hard typers. The keyboard I have now uses cherry MX reds, and everything online suggested that these were super sensitive and you'd mis-type a lot. Only good for games.

But honestly, I could go for something even easier to press. I fail to actuate the left shift with my small finger quite a lot. Guess I have a light touch.

It depends? Cherry MX keys have very stiff springs IMO - it's definitely an oldschool feel. Low profile keys tend to have a shorter pre-travel, and may have lower actuation force.

They aren't available on a lot of keyboards, but I'm fond of Kailh Speed Copper switches. The travel and speed needed to activate the key is comparable to that of a mid-2000s Apple keyboard, but the tactile bump is much lighter, and there's a whole lot more travel after the activation point before you bottom the key out. I find this to be really cushy; I can type lightly but quickly, with very little impact because I'm not hitting the end of the key's range of motion with any force.

That said, the annoying thing here is that it's expensive to try keys. Even when computer stores have keyboards you can try out, they usually only have the run-of-the-mill red, brown and blue switches.

>That said, the annoying thing here is that it's expensive to try keys

You can get switch tester kits off Aliexpress, I see there are $15-ish options that let you test 16-30 types of switches.

I like this kind of keyboard:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9bypxi...

IBM KB-7953

Weighs as much as a tablet PC.

Mine is from 1999, one of the most silent mechanicals, it's PS2 not USB.

It's beginning to stand the test of time and show proof of being as durable as you would want.

The office PC it is connected to is no spring chicken either.

>why can't they make smaller mice??

For an inexpensive less bulky office mouse ASUS AM1D is somewhat smaller than average and ambidextrous:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEMyuDKRmnc

You get surprisingly more use out of your limited mousepad/benchtop area.

Only takes up half as much room in a laptop case and anything smaller can be much less ergonomic.

It looks like about the same size as the Viper Mini gaming mouse.

They make sense in an office setting : I have RSI, and random rubber dome keyboards in the office are painful. Some of them are good, some of them super bad, and to me, bad essentially means painful. So, I found one I liked, and stuck to it, until it started having problems. Then I tried to replace it.

Unfortunately, this particular model of noname office keyboard was no longer available, and out of stock at my office. I realized that I had to do something : find a keyboard which would last a very long time, and with known physical properties ( actuation force, travel distance, etc), so that if I had to replace it later, it would be possible, and very easy.

In the end, it seems like I want mx red(45 linear), a split keyboard, flat (no angle) , silent, and as low profile as possible. Problem solved, there's plenty of those on the market!

Ever tried any linear type switches? Silent silver, silent red, silent black...

I am a guitar and bass player, and I love just having a linear switch that you can either hammer on and bottom out (=loud) or silently hover and move 1mm to activate it inaudibly. All depending on mood.

There are mechanical keyboards that are lower profile. I felt the same as you with my old Filco Majestouch-2 with MX Blues, but switched to a Logitech G915 with MX Browns and enjoy it a lot more.

The key travel is still the same, but I found that having the tops of the keys closer to the desk surface made it a lot less straining.

I also recommend a desk chair that lets your forearms rest so that your wrists are parallel with and just slightly above the desk surface, so that your fingers are sort of pecking down (L shape) instead of curled (J shape). For any keyboard, but it matters more the taller the keyboard.

Atreus keyboard with purple switches is the best ever imo, tiny (no hand movement to use anything, incl. numbers & arrows), great mechanical feel & not too much travel / noise. Ill never switch back!

I’ve tried a couple of mechanical keyboards at this point and I still don’t understand why people rave about Cherry MX blue switches. I have two of the exact same model of keyboard, one with Cherry MX blue and one with Cherry MX silent red. I much prefer the silent red for pretty much all situations. I suspect I might also like/tolerate the Cherry MX silver switches for their relative silence (still not as silent as the silent red though) and really short actuation distance.

For me, the Blues just feel perfectly snappy and quick. I really like the Red switches as well and if I was using a keyboard in an office environment, I'd probably go for Reds as the Blues have an audible click. But in the privacy of my home with no one else around, I find the typing experience to just be really fun and snappy on Blue switches. Your fingers can easily race over the keyboard (assuming you're not bottoming them out!)

Hah, at my last job my colleagues in the software development department were like waging a loudness war. Almost everybody, including myself, brought their own blue switch keyboard to the office. Being an open-floor office with no noise absorbing ceiling, it was funny as hell to take off your headphones and suddenly realize all the clicking and clacking happening around you.

Not all mechanical keyboards are loud. I have used fairly quiet cherry brown switches that nobody seemed to mind in my office settings. And not all require as much key travel and force. I am using louder and heavier keys now and I do agree with the general sentiment of your comment. I think the linked site has the best reviews but favors louder and heavier.

>key testers: the red keys are less noisy

You get red silents too, which end up not just less loud but also feel wise a little closer to traditional keyboards (which might be seen as a negative by the hardcore mech crowd)

There are bluetooth mechanical keyboards with low profile, shorter travel, silent actuation, lightweight touch. The combination is there. Don't hate every mechanical keyboard.

The logitech MX series is smaller yet more comfortable

Silent reds are what I use after a long time on clears and browns. Can't go back, reds are good for gaming but also far less effort for typing. Never found the tactile bump to be all that useful.

I love brown after awhile of using blue. Blue feels great but is loud enough to wake up the neighbors.

Same boat here. I'm eyeball some silent reds right now so if you could share what you got if you've had it for a while I'm all ears. Ideally I'd like to own a mechanical keyboard that just isn't going to have a key die on me.

You should try Gazzew Boba U4 Silent.

Much more pleasant sounding.

They’re amazing. I picked them up a few months ago based on a random recommendation online, and couldn’t be happier. They’re 90% as satisfying to hit as Blues, but the noise level is similar to an Apple keyboard.

I worked at a company that gave people generous leeway to purchase computer gear they wanted.

We already had good computers and monitors, so fancy mechanical keyboards were the #1 purchase for most people. The mechanical keyboard fans nerded out over different switches and other hardware, spending countless hours doing research and trying out different types of keys.

And then slowly nearly everyone went back to regular old keyboards. There were a few die-hards who stuck to the mechanical keyboards, but most people eventually realized that the mechanical keyboard experience didn't really live up to the mechanical keyboard hype.

Some people love them, but the narrative that mechanical keyboards are objectively superior has gotten out of hand in recent years. In my experience, the average programmer doesn't really enjoy heavy mechanical keyboards over the long run.

(And before I get buried in comments that we weren't using the "right" switches or keys or whatever, trust me when I say that the office went through a lot of different variations and there was a lot of trading around)

You describe me quite well too :)

I tried dozens of switches, key caps and layouts over the years. Soldering my own switches, trying different materials to soften the sound for the perfect “thocc”

It was/is a fun hobby but over time I grew out of it and now I am happy with a simple low profile keyboard.

My favourites (in no particular order) are: Apple Magic Keyboard with Numpad, Microsoft Surface keyboards, and the Logitech MX Keys.

I also used to really like the old Microsoft natural keyboards many, many years ago

Interestingly (to me anyway) is that even though I am British I have grown to prefer a US (ANSI) layout over an ISO layout. Not really sure why though if I am honest.

I'm a diehard Model M guy, but it's not a mechanical key switch.

Buckled spring is about as mechanical as it gets though. I really hated those back in the day because of the clangy noise and the heavy resistance.

At the time I thought it was made to appeal to the tastes is mechanical typewriter users who were still very common in those days. I just had a cheap BTC foam-foil one which was really nice actually but did need a full take-apart and clean every year or so. But the touchwas so much lighter than the model Ms at my dad's work.

They feel very different than a Selectric I/II, but the Selectric III uses a similar keyboard action. A manual typewriter feels very very different (and is impossible for me to use, as someone who is a key pounder at times - like my cube mates could tell when I was writing an angry email by how my keyboard sounded, lol)

Yes it is, it’s buckling springs.

Some folks like to make a technical argument that no, it's not; the buckling spring on a model m keyboard isn't what actuates the keys on the Model M and similar keyboards; instead, the springs are mounted on top of a fairly traditional keyboard membrane layer, and it's the membrane layer that acts as the "switch".

So there are mechanical components and it mostly feels mechanical, but there's a membrane underneath it all that's what actually triggers the key presses.

It's kind of a pedantic argument, I guess? But they do say that "technically correct is the best kind of correct", so YMMV.

Sort of? they feel like different beasts, and both literally and functionally are different beasts.

It feels very very different than a mechanical key switch, to the extent that I love Model M's, but I'm generally meh about mechanical key switches (not enough auditory or physical feedback), a really good rubber dome keyboard is preferable to me over a mechanical key switch keyboard.

With a Model M, I type less harshly than on any other kind of keyboard, and thats because the keyboard gives me an auditory and physical feedback as soon as the keypress registers (back pressure rises right up to the trigger point, then it drops again after and then rises again right to the bottom out point). I regularly will bottom out a mechanical keyswitch keyboard, I never do on a Model M, and only occasionally do so on a rubber dome (it depends on the keyboard).

I've used enough mechanical key switch keyboard that have issues with key switches binding up, that I dont care for them, I shouldnt need to worry about lubricating my keyboard ;-)

I have an HHKB, but I think it's mostly fun (and I guess fashion?)

It's fun to nerd out about tools and play with them. There aren't a lot of ways you can customize standard hardware and keyboards are an easy case for all sorts of little things, different colors, etc. and you use it all of the time.

I don't think a lot of the details around key types matter in any serious way, but it's a fun computer related peripheral to play with.

It's possible that the went back to the old keyboards for another reason. Not because they dislike mech keyboards but because of analysis paralysis.

As other posters mentioned, the recent "mechanical keyboard" subculture is all about show and boasting. It's not a surprise it seem to have boomed with gaming rigs and streaming channels.

The keyboard in these circles is all about status, not function. If anything, I would compare it to "dubious" car mods like "cambered wheels".

Due to RSI I tried dozens of keyboards over the years. When I see these new keyboards being sold at these prices, especially the mechanical ones marketed with "improved layouts" and ergonomics, I have to laugh.

There's genuine difference between the various switch types, and I totally believe that for some people the acoustic feedback can be a valid alternative to the haptic one. Physical feedback while typing can really help. However it's clear to me most of these people are not really trying to solve an issue when you see reviews of switching performance after lubing...

>Due to RSI I tried dozens of keyboards over the years. When I see these new keyboards being sold at these prices, especially the mechanical ones marketed with "improved layouts" and ergonomics, I have to laugh.

If you haven't got to the opensource crowd of the mechanical keyboard world yet, you should. Ergonomic is one of the problems that people are trying to solve, and their solutions are opensource.

Oh I'm fully aware. This scene has been going on far longer than the current wave of mechanical keyboard craze (and it often doesn't emphasize switches as much either). I consider the two groups completely distinct.

Cambered wheels are the automobile equivalent of wearing pants round your knees.

I second this feeling.

MK are all hype (I own a Keycron and use a Fnatic gaming kb as daily work kb) but I would pay to have the feel of good old 20 years old rubber cheap keyboards again.

About the only things I care about in keyboards are:

1) Curved ergonomic / sculpt please. I am really shitty typist. Ergonomic however makes me suck less.

2) No funny layouts. Basically it has to be faithful replica of that old IBM keyboard.

3) It is full size with no small keys. Can sort of tolerate smaller F-Keys

I got no sense of satisfaction from that loud mech clicking. Tried it and gave back.

Layout and ergonomics are much more important than switches, my dream is to have a kinesis advantage with blue switches, but until then I much prefer my advantage over my regular keyboard with blue switches.

But.. they are objectively superior. Not everyone needs them. But they are better in many ways.

I've got a totally different experience... I own three HHKB: two HHKB Pro JP (for they have a narrower spacebar and more modifiers: so less thumb travel: I do have very close Japanese family but I don't speak Japanese) and one HHKB Pro 2 (the first I got).

They are, to me, out of this world. They ruined me forever in that I'll never be able to use something else than a Topre. I've got lots of IBM Model Ms, several Cherry boards (including the ultimate Cherry MX brown: the split MX 5000), I worked for years (when I was doing typesetting) on the best keyboard Apple ever made (Apple Extended Keyboard II is the name I think, from the early 90s): it wasn't bad.

But Topre is the best thing that ever happened to keyboards: I don't know how to put it in any other way.

My only gripe is that there are so little models to chose from: all the enthusiasts making their own keyboards are using Cherry MX switches but it's not because they're better than Topre, it's because they have no choice. There are many MX switches to choose from, yet, to me, they're not anywhere near close the greatness of Topre.

I'd totally be in the "build your own keyboard" community if I could easily build one using Topre switches. Heck, I considered cutting two HHKB Pro JP in half each to build me a split one... (it's doable).

Regarding the noise: I'm that guy crazy enough to go live somewhere quiet. Not the city, not full rural either because I don't want to hear animal farms and tractors. I'm the crazy one who'll splurge $$$ to get a high-end luxury car only for the sound insulation.

I'm also one of those dinosaurs who know what it was it was like to type in a room full of IBM Model M terminal keyboards (or similar) hooked to an AS/400.

Topre switches aren't that loud: no need to apologize for coworkers (moreover there are different Topre switches, some of which are quieter than others).

I'm not saying it's for everybody but I do really think anyone who's never tried one should try: it may be the keyboard switch they'll use until their last day.

I know I'm not the only one who's tried everything that exists out there and settled on Topre for life.

100%. i’ve tried everything. model m, model f, cherry, etc. nothing feels the same way the hhkb does for me. and the layout, as an emacs user, is sublime

Model Fs are the capacitive ones? I know they're good but I never got into that: I found Topre before going there and I'm a happy camper since then!

i’d recommend you try a model f. despite the model m’s quality, it was actually made as a cheap alternative to the model f. the f is basically an m on steroids. i don’t prefer it to the hhkb for 2 reasons: (1) it’s ridiculously heavy, and i take my keyboard around with me (2) the layout doesn’t suit my workflow very well

Ditto, I have a Realforce R2 PFU Limited Edition and it's the best keyboard I've ever used. I don't think it's that loud and I could see myself using it in an office setting.

Before getting the Realforce I got two Filco Majestouch with brown switches. I used one of them in the office for quite some time and in retro respect I feel a bit sorry for my colleagues at the time. I still have and use those keyboards and the Realforce is much quieter.

Thinking about getting another Realforce and retire my Filcos. It's the "end game" keyboard for me.

I'm typing this comment on a Leopold Topre keyboard. It is far and away my favorite keyboard. I like it more than my Moonlander or any other mechanical keyboard I've ever owned.

I have an HHKB for many years. It’s still my favorite keyboard. It’s very personally and subjective. Most of the reasons for why I like it can be explained as I am used to it though - eg it’s layout.

I would be surprised if it starts to show wear within the next 10 years.

I've been using mine daily for around 10 years, and yes, you are entirely correct. If I could somehow clean all the coffee stains and grime it has accumulated it could probably pass off as new! And while I personally love the feel of topre keys, I can see why people might not like them - to each his own.

I just wish the new wireless HHKBs weren't so dang ugly!

> I've been using mine daily for around 10 years, and yes, you are entirely correct. If I could somehow clean all the coffee stains and grime it has accumulated it could probably pass off as new!

Same... Once in a while I took all the keycaps off of my HHKBs and vaccuum clean everything, then clean everything using q-tips, clean all the keycaps one by one. They're looking close to new despite heavy years of daily usage.

My HHKB Hybrid Type-S is definitely less noisy than MX-Brown (at least in WASD keyboards edition).

It may be more silent than my typing on macbook air, but it's hard to compare because it produces lower frequencies, definitely nicer sound than macbook keyboard to me and never even thought about it as noisy.

That's the exact HHKB I have and trust me, it's a noisy rattly mess compared to a good mech.

Like just lightly glide your fingers across the keys and you should feel/hear the rattle. That same rattle continues as you type, it's just mixed in with the sound of bottoming out.

For comparison, my mech is a solid feeling piece of aluminum, the keys have 0 wobble, and there are no rattles at all.

It's night and day, I could never go back to a HHKB.

I currently use an HHKB (for almost 10 years now) and I love it. But RSI has pushed me towards building my own split ergonomic ortho keyboard. What switches are you currently using on your daily driver mech? I got some 67g Zilents that I'm hoping give me a fairly close feel to my Topres when lubricated.

Boba U4

Having used every tactile from Zilents to Holy Pandas, these are the first switches I'd consider a strict upgrade over the competition (including Topres)

They're crisp, come in silent and unsilenced (I prefer silent), and have uncanny tolerances which results in a consistency Topres can't match.

I also have a type-s hhkb with the silencing o-rings and I’ve never thought that it sounds noisy.

I’ve experimented with various keyboards but for me the sound and the action of the hhkb are my favorite. I just wish it had the layout of the Leopold FC660C.

Like I said, mine is a Type S. They are inherently rattly.

Plastic case plus very loose tolerances on the switches = it rattles.

It's great if it doesn't bother you, it didn't really bother me until I got to experience better.

Even something as small as resting fingers on a key feels so much nicer when the switch has 0 play

I examined mine carefully after reading your comments and.. did you buy it directly from HHKB? Maybe you have some counterfeit?

But you may be right, I'm not such a keyboard aficionado, I only had a few mechanical keyboards and maybe my standards are too low (or rather, at level which keeps me happy).

But as somebody else noted if you found the holy grail please share.

I honestly have no idea what the parent is referring to. My HHKB feels solid, and I prefer it to the other mechanical keyboards that I've tried.

It is not loud due to the o-rings.

I mentioned it before, Boba U4s are the holy grail.

And no, it's not a counterfeit.

Which keyboard/switches are you using if I might ask?

Boba U4 62g in a Millmax'd Tofu 65

I switch between Cherry Browns and Topre (Leopold 660) and my Topres are much quieter. I prefer them for office calls, as a result

I never understood regular mechanical keyboards either - the fact that the switches are so thick, makes the whole assembly thick, which forces your wrists into a stress position - which is uncomfortable and I'm pretty sure will lead to wrist problems down the line. This also applies to thick "gaming" or "workstation" laptops as well. Call me an unwashed casual, but the most comfortable typing experience for me is on a Macbook. The fact that it's thin, the keys have little travel depth, and take very little to actuate allows me to comfortably type for extended periods of time.

Keychron has low profile models.

https://www.keychron.com/

Agree brown cherry keys are the best, and the Happy Hacking keyboard is probably overrated (never used one, thankfully never gave into the minor urge to buy one years ago).

I use a ROG Claymore now and it's great, the only real disadvantages being that the key caps are pretty flimsy, and they also come off too easily.

My MX-brown keyboard is definitely louder than my standard HHKB2, even though the MX got after market dampeners installed. Estimate about double the noise from the MX so surprising to hear you had the opposite experience.

Yes, I also settled with Mx browns after a long time trying to like Mx blues. It seems to be a common course of action among my coworkers. Also my blues started failing after 5 years, the browns seem to not be affected.

I have a HHKB2 Pro Blank for like 7 years now (heavy daily use). Its just awesome and it pretty much feels like day one. Keys are still very responsive. I love that thing.

I’m with you. I bought the HHKB and thought I’d love it but I didn’t. I also found the keys too “heavy” but I did buy the quieter model, so it never felt loud to me. I have gone back to an old cherry brown switch keyboard and have preferred it.

There is a type-s version if you want it to be quieter, or you can mod it yourself with some sound dampening rings. Placing a folded microfibre cloth or a mousepad or something similar underneath the keyboard also dampens the sound quite a bit.

The mx board 3 is a remarkably good keyboard - I think I had bought it because it was fairly flat and thin, unlike most mech keyboards, and ended up enjoying it a lot more than expected.

Ever try a Type-S? Mine is really quiet.

It’s also not very hard to modify non-silenced keyboards with aftermarket rings. I did that on my old HHKB and it worked great.

Meh, while it actuates the noise a bit it generally doesn't make a night and day difference.

For me coding during night was a no with my older MK even with the rings I would wake people in my house when typing.

That’s reasonable. Modern silent MX switches and MX clones like the Boba U4 are extremely quiet because of their internal dampening.

I have tried them once but they just don't match the good old IBM keyboards

Why did you keep using it if you hated it?

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