Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?
switchandclick.com
switchandclick.com
But I'll recognize they have some merit. The chunky feeling has a sense of physically I never experienced in other keyboard. The 60 keys and compact form factor is great for transport and leaves a lot of room for other things on your desk (this is actually super useful). The physical switches for changing the layout are very handy. And honestly the thing look like it could survive an impact from a deep space object. I would be surprised if it starts to show wear within the next 10 years.
I still prefer my cheap Cherry Mx-Board 3 with brown cherry keys. The thing is clunky and ugly, but the more muted noise and lower pressure required to activate the keys is what I'm comfortable with.
I'm so sorry for my former colleagues that had to go through my topre period and deal with the noise I even personally was very annoyed with.
Edit:spelling
It may be more silent than my typing on macbook air, but it's hard to compare because it produces lower frequencies, definitely nicer sound than macbook keyboard to me and never even thought about it as noisy.
Like just lightly glide your fingers across the keys and you should feel/hear the rattle. That same rattle continues as you type, it's just mixed in with the sound of bottoming out.
For comparison, my mech is a solid feeling piece of aluminum, the keys have 0 wobble, and there are no rattles at all.
It's night and day, I could never go back to a HHKB.
I’ve experimented with various keyboards but for me the sound and the action of the hhkb are my favorite. I just wish it had the layout of the Leopold FC660C.
Plastic case plus very loose tolerances on the switches = it rattles.
It's great if it doesn't bother you, it didn't really bother me until I got to experience better.
Even something as small as resting fingers on a key feels so much nicer when the switch has 0 play
But you may be right, I'm not such a keyboard aficionado, I only had a few mechanical keyboards and maybe my standards are too low (or rather, at level which keeps me happy).
But as somebody else noted if you found the holy grail please share.
And no, it's not a counterfeit.
It is not loud due to the o-rings.
Having used every tactile from Zilents to Holy Pandas, these are the first switches I'd consider a strict upgrade over the competition (including Topres)
They're crisp, come in silent and unsilenced (I prefer silent), and have uncanny tolerances which results in a consistency Topres can't match.
The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive!
I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them.
My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpad keyboard (TrackPoint Keyboard II Bluetooth 4Y40X49493): the island version (current) is more comfortable than the previous version where the keys were touching (SK-8835 family if you want a numpad) as it leaves some room for nails.
Mechanical keyboards seem preferred by gamers, but in my opinion, they make little sense in an office setting.
However, my new favorite mouse is the Logitech G600 that's popular for MMOs: after purchasing a few different mice that had been recommended here and testing them all, it's the one that fits the best in my hand, even if it's still too large (why can't they make smaller mice??)
What I like the most is how it has side keys that can be mapped in the firmware to physical keys (persistent setting) and to elaborate actions in AutoHotKey!
Now give me the same thing 30% smaller, wireless with bluetooth, with a left hand option, and I'd happily pay $200 for it!
Much more pleasant sounding.
I think mechanical keyboards are just too high, with excessive travel. You sort of have to keep your hands floating in the air, which transfers stress to your neck, shoulders and upper body. No palm support I tried offered any substantial relief, probably due to the long travel and finger contortions required.
Second issue, perhaps I'm a poor typist, but my fingertips frequently got stuck between the keys, causing mistakes by triggering adjacent keys.
One day I got tired and bought a 10 euro keyboard from the grocery shop. Noname, slimline, rubber domes. What a relief that was.
These days I swear by Logitech MX Keys. Best keyboard I have ever touched.
This is a new one on me. I have never heard of this happening to anyone. My recommendation for you would get a low profile mechanical keyboard like the Keychron K3 or Logitech G915
I guess I'm a slimline keyboard person and thanks for the recommendation. Perhaps I will try a mechanical slim as well, to fully close this experiment. For the moment I enjoy just getting some work done on the MX Keys, it is an absolute delight. Can't say enough good things about it.
Actually, I had the same thing happen to me during my mechanical keyboard experiment when I had to use some old keyboard found in the basement on a raspberrypi.
It felt SO GOOD, SO COMFORTABLE, that I said "screw that experiment, I'll accept that I'm an uncultured swine who likes membrane keyboards!"
I decided to stop trying to fit my tastes to what's popular, and instead added that quirk to my list of differences with normal geeks (who hate many of the things I like, such as Windows...)
Then I bought myself a Thinkpad SK-88xx membrane keyboard new in a box at a price that'd make even mechanical keyboard snobs cry, and I've been happy ever since with regular Thinkpad membrane keyboards :)
Funny enough, for me it was the inexpensive (~ USD 25) no name "blue" switches keyboard that I like best. They are very clickity clackity. However, I work from home now so it works out.
It doesn't have a number pad which I thought would be a deal breaker but I don't mind much at all. Even the legendary Thinkpad keyboard is not good enough anymore. In fact, I went to the Thinkpad bios and switched the fn <-> Ctrl keys back to the same layout as on my USB keyboard.
That sounds exactly like my personal experience. I purchased a cheap Ajazz ak33 for around USD 25 and I loved the feel and response. It's a shame that no one within a 30 feet radius shared my appreciation of it's clickyness, and now it sits on a shelf gathering dust.
I enjoy mechanical keyboards myself, and even so, I found myself liking the low profile ones a lot better. Like you said, I love the tactile feel, and I also find regular sized mechanical keyboards too high.
I currently use two: The Keychron K1 "Ultra thin" for work and the HAVIT Low Profile one. Both are a joy to type with. They are as thin as any rubber dome keyboards and provide a better type feel.
Could you recommend a model that's not too noisy and doesn't require too much force, but which also has the page up and page down keys on both sides of the up arrow?
This seems a rarity for mechanical keyboards, while it's quite standard on laptops. Since I spend most of my time on laptops, I'd like to at least match the general shape for the features I use the most- like shift-page up and shift-page down scrolling in consoles.
I've got two with Gateron Browns, I rate them very, very high.
One of the main advantages of a mechanical is that they are often programmable so you no longer have to rely on software based methods to change key mappings. Caps lock is Escape everywhere all the time.
1. High quality, tactile switches (Cherry MX Blues or Browns) 2. Programmable keymapping 3. TKL layout 4. 6NKRO 5. PBT double-shot molded keycaps (not ABS) 6. Steel baseplate with as little flex as possible 7. Removable USB-C cable 8. Black or grey (dark colours)
I don't care at all about RGB, that's a gimmick to me. I'm not a gamer. I need something I can blaze on when doing heavy Vim editing or writing (I type +/- 150 wpm) after a nap and a few cups of good coffee.
I also prefer a narrow bezel, something like this: https://www.duckychannel.com.tw/en/Ducky-One-Golden-grey-TKL
I once spent time writing a CPU, RAM, and IO barmeter using RGB backlight, using one color and one line of keys for each indicator.
It's VERY practical for a sysadmin!
This would be a limit: I use AHK to have chorded keys: - caps is esc if used alone, control if used with another key - enter is enter if used alone, control if used with another key - shift left is page up if used alone, shift if used with another key - shift right is page down if used alone, shift if used with another key - alt left is home if used alone, alt if used with another key - alt right is home if used alone, alt if used with another key
This makes many shortcuts very easy: ctrl-l can be done one handed with the right hand by pressing enter-l
Likewise, to control-shift-home, I press caps+shift left+alt left.
To move between tabs, on the left caps then shift left, or on the right enter then shift right.
Better: the two thumbs "beginning then end of file" to have a quick look at some code: right alt then left alt (so right alt=alt, left alt=home) and the same 2 keys but in the opposite order, left alt then right alt (so left alt=alt, right alt=end)
This is so super practical with AutoHotKey...
If you don't mind, can you please share your script? My Capslock-as-a-modifier setup is very simple. I just use Capslock + various keys to do stuff:
Capslock & p::Send, {PgUp}
Capslock & n::Send, {PgDn}I've already posted it here, check my posting history.
Since you are the 2nd person to ask, I might even put it on github!
The closest is the GMK UNIQEK C70, with pagedown on the right... but shift on the left. I might be able to remap FN, and to find a cap with the right slant... but then it's not low profile.
I've also not charged the thing in months and it doesn't seem to care, which blows my mind.
If using a mechanical keyboard caused the need for contortions, it was a bad fit for you. Full stop. Whatever layout you ended up with was built for the needs of someone else.
I generally tell people who're interested in the Keeb Life to grab something random off Amazon. If they want something known, I point them at the Code keyboard, which is 90% a basic keyboard, 10% swag. Nothing weird except some clever use of the function keys and some entirely optional helpful things for programmers in the layout.
IANAMD, but I'd bring up this with one. The relaxed "floating hands while typing" posture is one that a lot of people end up passing through. It works for some but not others and comfortable typing should be regardless of the keyboard.
However -- the qualifying fact is that I am a pianist, from the age of 5. I believe that a lot of the biomechanics I learned at the piano keyboard transfer to the computer keyboard, whether I want them to or not. I can't help but try to type the way I play piano to some degree -- in large part, this means an elevated wrist, a pretty high finger force and more of a hammer-type finger action rather than a pressing-type acting.
A very important part of any instrument training is learning correct technique, and a large reason for this is the prevention of injury. I've had decades to adopt the correct technique for keeping my wrists elevated and my fingers hanging down without tension. And I'm sure the increased finger strength helps, too.
To me this is one of benefits of harder to press keys: Accidentally touching a key is not enough to trigger them but intentional keypresses go through. It's the same difference as between piano and light synth keyboard. The thing about long travel is part avoiding accidental keypresses but also that you don't have to press the key to bottom and can avoid the jolt.
Mainly you can look up Chocolate switches.
[Example](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06...)
What I’ve discovered over time is that I’m some kind of peasant when it comes to typing.
What I really like are thin, low travel laptop keyboards and trackpads instead of mice.
Small, symmetrical with everything centred below an external monitor.
I love the idea of mechanical keyboards but the reality is that actuation force and the key travel just make me wrists hurt after a while.
You and me both. I love low travel keyboard that make little noise. I've learned to accept my personal tastes, even if they don't match what's expected of me.
BTW I wonder how much of a learned preference mechanical keyboards are? At first, I thought they were preferred by older geeks because of a nostalgia factors, but they also seem popular with gamers.
I just don't understand. I have a friend on the spectrum who's (the best I can say) "physically violent when typing on his keyboard", to the point I wouldn't let him use my laptop as I'd fear for my keys.
He loves mechanical keyboards because they tolerate the abuse, and I just don't understand that: Isn't it better to not have to use that much force, and to not feel pain in your wrist and fingertips?
Take for example expensive gaming chairs that look like race car chairs. The side support makes no sense since gamers do not experience high g-forces. The side support lowers mobility which is actually really bad for your back.
I feel the same way. Oddly enough, one of the best keyboards I have ever used is the Google Pixelbook's. It has truly spoiled my fingers for other keyboards.
One thing that messing around with mechanical keyboards has taught me is that I don't need a full keyboard. Compact TKL's work best for me. The Logitech MX Keys mini has a small enough form factor and comes closest to the Pixelbook's feel.
Unfortunately, this particular model of noname office keyboard was no longer available, and out of stock at my office. I realized that I had to do something : find a keyboard which would last a very long time, and with known physical properties ( actuation force, travel distance, etc), so that if I had to replace it later, it would be possible, and very easy.
In the end, it seems like I want mx red(45 linear), a split keyboard, flat (no angle) , silent, and as low profile as possible. Problem solved, there's plenty of those on the market!
People do make smaller mice. But the downside is that they are generally cheapies, and not very robust. I have bought several over the years from supermarkets when I found I'd left my usual mouse behind.
When it comes to left-handed mice, it's often easier to obtain a symmetrical mouse, and change its handidness in software.
I use my mice so much that I have a problem with wireless mice forever running out of batteries. "Up to six months usage": bullshit. I'm lucky to get two weeks out of a set of batteries. So I stick to wired keyboards and mice.
The last mouse I had was a white Apple Magic Mouse: still a bit on the large side, yet much smaller than the Logitech G600.
But multitouch is not as good as 12 dedicated keys for shortcuts!
> When it comes to left-handed mice, it's often easier to obtain a symmetrical mouse, and change its handidness in software
Symmetrical could do, but then I'd miss the 12 keys right by my thumb!
Xtrfy MZ1 Coolermaster MM710 Razer Viper Mini
I'm currently using the first one and it is a great mouse. No special software, no BS, very light, great shape, and a cable you don't even notice that you have. Don't know about the rest, but before this one I had Logitech G Pro wireless, and it was great, but a bit too large.
Being a cheapskate but wanting a mechanical keyboard with swappable switches, I bought a Redragon K552 off Amazon (88 key version) for $28. The Outemu reds are fine, but I swapped the alphabet and control keys for browns.
I have no regrets.
You don't have to only press the key to the actuation point, you have to press it at least to it. You can then stop anywhere between that point and the bottom, which is easier to do with long travel keys.
In my experience this works best with lighter keys (requiring less force). I found this out when messing around with a cheaper mechanical keyboard[0] by realising that I had just stopped pressing the keys all the way. I wasn't even looking to "type better" or whatever, I was just curious about all the mech hype and was trying one out.
Getting back to membrane keyboards, in my case a 2013 MBP, was actually painful because the keys actually require more force to move past the rest position, but they then become very soft, so all the force becomes speed which then stops all of a sudden when I hit the bottom. To me, it's practically impossible to not bottom out the MBP keyboard because of the short travel. Also, since I got used to pressing the keys with too little force, I find I actually miss a lot of the keys, which had never happened before.
---
[0] Drevo Gramr with Outemu Brown switches
“Bottoming out” is just “typing”. You press the key. Find a keyboard that feels good when you press the keys.
The key travel is still the same, but I found that having the tops of the keys closer to the desk surface made it a lot less straining.
I also recommend a desk chair that lets your forearms rest so that your wrists are parallel with and just slightly above the desk surface, so that your fingers are sort of pecking down (L shape) instead of curled (J shape). For any keyboard, but it matters more the taller the keyboard.
I would best compare Topre to Key Tronic Lifetime and ErgoForce rubber dome keyboards from the '90s. Both those and Topre are full-travel, and have a distinct bottom-out feel, but they still require you to bottom out. They are also comparable in sound, IMHO.
BTW. I prefer low-profile rubber dome/scissor switches or full-travel mechanical Cherry MX Clear. I've used a Topre keyboard a few weeks at work some years ago but my fingers starting aching from having to push past that big bump in the key travel.
Libertouch is the best feeling switch I've ever used including Realforce/HHKB. I love this but its full layout with tenkey is pain.
https://buyee.jp/mercari/search?keyword=%E3%83%AA%E3%83%99%E... https://buyee.jp/mercari/search?keyword=libertouch&category_... https://buyee.jp/item/search/query/libertouch?translationTyp... https://buyee.jp/rakuma/search?keyword=libertouch
Similarly, infamous Hall effect switches, as well as the similarly rare optical switches, don't use mechanical component for switching itself... Rubber dome switches, however, technically do (switching happens when the keys cause physical hit on the membranes)
P. S. Yes, I'm riffing about how it doesn't really matter.
But honestly, I could go for something even easier to press. I fail to actuate the left shift with my small finger quite a lot. Guess I have a light touch.
They aren't available on a lot of keyboards, but I'm fond of Kailh Speed Copper switches. The travel and speed needed to activate the key is comparable to that of a mid-2000s Apple keyboard, but the tactile bump is much lighter, and there's a whole lot more travel after the activation point before you bottom the key out. I find this to be really cushy; I can type lightly but quickly, with very little impact because I'm not hitting the end of the key's range of motion with any force.
That said, the annoying thing here is that it's expensive to try keys. Even when computer stores have keyboards you can try out, they usually only have the run-of-the-mill red, brown and blue switches.
You can get switch tester kits off Aliexpress, I see there are $15-ish options that let you test 16-30 types of switches.
I am a guitar and bass player, and I love just having a linear switch that you can either hammer on and bottom out (=loud) or silently hover and move 1mm to activate it inaudibly. All depending on mood.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9bypxi...
IBM KB-7953
Weighs as much as a tablet PC.
Mine is from 1999, one of the most silent mechanicals, it's PS2 not USB.
It's beginning to stand the test of time and show proof of being as durable as you would want.
The office PC it is connected to is no spring chicken either.
>why can't they make smaller mice??
For an inexpensive less bulky office mouse ASUS AM1D is somewhat smaller than average and ambidextrous:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEMyuDKRmnc
You get surprisingly more use out of your limited mousepad/benchtop area.
Only takes up half as much room in a laptop case and anything smaller can be much less ergonomic.
It looks like about the same size as the Viper Mini gaming mouse.
You get red silents too, which end up not just less loud but also feel wise a little closer to traditional keyboards (which might be seen as a negative by the hardcore mech crowd)
For me coding during night was a no with my older MK even with the rings I would wake people in my house when typing.
We already had good computers and monitors, so fancy mechanical keyboards were the #1 purchase for most people. The mechanical keyboard fans nerded out over different switches and other hardware, spending countless hours doing research and trying out different types of keys.
And then slowly nearly everyone went back to regular old keyboards. There were a few die-hards who stuck to the mechanical keyboards, but most people eventually realized that the mechanical keyboard experience didn't really live up to the mechanical keyboard hype.
Some people love them, but the narrative that mechanical keyboards are objectively superior has gotten out of hand in recent years. In my experience, the average programmer doesn't really enjoy heavy mechanical keyboards over the long run.
(And before I get buried in comments that we weren't using the "right" switches or keys or whatever, trust me when I say that the office went through a lot of different variations and there was a lot of trading around)
1) Curved ergonomic / sculpt please. I am really shitty typist. Ergonomic however makes me suck less.
2) No funny layouts. Basically it has to be faithful replica of that old IBM keyboard.
3) It is full size with no small keys. Can sort of tolerate smaller F-Keys
I got no sense of satisfaction from that loud mech clicking. Tried it and gave back.
MK are all hype (I own a Keycron and use a Fnatic gaming kb as daily work kb) but I would pay to have the feel of good old 20 years old rubber cheap keyboards again.
So there are mechanical components and it mostly feels mechanical, but there's a membrane underneath it all that's what actually triggers the key presses.
It's kind of a pedantic argument, I guess? But they do say that "technically correct is the best kind of correct", so YMMV.
It feels very very different than a mechanical key switch, to the extent that I love Model M's, but I'm generally meh about mechanical key switches (not enough auditory or physical feedback), a really good rubber dome keyboard is preferable to me over a mechanical key switch keyboard.
With a Model M, I type less harshly than on any other kind of keyboard, and thats because the keyboard gives me an auditory and physical feedback as soon as the keypress registers (back pressure rises right up to the trigger point, then it drops again after and then rises again right to the bottom out point). I regularly will bottom out a mechanical keyswitch keyboard, I never do on a Model M, and only occasionally do so on a rubber dome (it depends on the keyboard).
I've used enough mechanical key switch keyboard that have issues with key switches binding up, that I dont care for them, I shouldnt need to worry about lubricating my keyboard ;-)
At the time I thought it was made to appeal to the tastes is mechanical typewriter users who were still very common in those days. I just had a cheap BTC foam-foil one which was really nice actually but did need a full take-apart and clean every year or so. But the touchwas so much lighter than the model Ms at my dad's work.
It's fun to nerd out about tools and play with them. There aren't a lot of ways you can customize standard hardware and keyboards are an easy case for all sorts of little things, different colors, etc. and you use it all of the time.
I don't think a lot of the details around key types matter in any serious way, but it's a fun computer related peripheral to play with.
I tried dozens of switches, key caps and layouts over the years. Soldering my own switches, trying different materials to soften the sound for the perfect “thocc”
It was/is a fun hobby but over time I grew out of it and now I am happy with a simple low profile keyboard.
My favourites (in no particular order) are: Apple Magic Keyboard with Numpad, Microsoft Surface keyboards, and the Logitech MX Keys.
I also used to really like the old Microsoft natural keyboards many, many years ago
Interestingly (to me anyway) is that even though I am British I have grown to prefer a US (ANSI) layout over an ISO layout. Not really sure why though if I am honest.
The keyboard in these circles is all about status, not function. If anything, I would compare it to "dubious" car mods like "cambered wheels".
Due to RSI I tried dozens of keyboards over the years. When I see these new keyboards being sold at these prices, especially the mechanical ones marketed with "improved layouts" and ergonomics, I have to laugh.
There's genuine difference between the various switch types, and I totally believe that for some people the acoustic feedback can be a valid alternative to the haptic one. Physical feedback while typing can really help. However it's clear to me most of these people are not really trying to solve an issue when you see reviews of switching performance after lubing...
If you haven't got to the opensource crowd of the mechanical keyboard world yet, you should. Ergonomic is one of the problems that people are trying to solve, and their solutions are opensource.
I use a ROG Claymore now and it's great, the only real disadvantages being that the key caps are pretty flimsy, and they also come off too easily.
I've been using mine daily for around 10 years, and yes, you are entirely correct. If I could somehow clean all the coffee stains and grime it has accumulated it could probably pass off as new! And while I personally love the feel of topre keys, I can see why people might not like them - to each his own.
I just wish the new wireless HHKBs weren't so dang ugly!
Same... Once in a while I took all the keycaps off of my HHKBs and vaccuum clean everything, then clean everything using q-tips, clean all the keycaps one by one. They're looking close to new despite heavy years of daily usage.
They are, to me, out of this world. They ruined me forever in that I'll never be able to use something else than a Topre. I've got lots of IBM Model Ms, several Cherry boards (including the ultimate Cherry MX brown: the split MX 5000), I worked for years (when I was doing typesetting) on the best keyboard Apple ever made (Apple Extended Keyboard II is the name I think, from the early 90s): it wasn't bad.
But Topre is the best thing that ever happened to keyboards: I don't know how to put it in any other way.
My only gripe is that there are so little models to chose from: all the enthusiasts making their own keyboards are using Cherry MX switches but it's not because they're better than Topre, it's because they have no choice. There are many MX switches to choose from, yet, to me, they're not anywhere near close the greatness of Topre.
I'd totally be in the "build your own keyboard" community if I could easily build one using Topre switches. Heck, I considered cutting two HHKB Pro JP in half each to build me a split one... (it's doable).
Regarding the noise: I'm that guy crazy enough to go live somewhere quiet. Not the city, not full rural either because I don't want to hear animal farms and tractors. I'm the crazy one who'll splurge $$$ to get a high-end luxury car only for the sound insulation.
I'm also one of those dinosaurs who know what it was it was like to type in a room full of IBM Model M terminal keyboards (or similar) hooked to an AS/400.
Topre switches aren't that loud: no need to apologize for coworkers (moreover there are different Topre switches, some of which are quieter than others).
I'm not saying it's for everybody but I do really think anyone who's never tried one should try: it may be the keyboard switch they'll use until their last day.
I know I'm not the only one who's tried everything that exists out there and settled on Topre for life.
Before getting the Realforce I got two Filco Majestouch with brown switches. I used one of them in the office for quite some time and in retro respect I feel a bit sorry for my colleagues at the time. I still have and use those keyboards and the Realforce is much quieter.
Thinking about getting another Realforce and retire my Filcos. It's the "end game" keyboard for me.
It makes me think, though, that one of these manufacturers might be well served by creating an attached forum, like HN, that’s well moderated and permits discussion of other brands. People are getting into mechanical keyboards for the products and the art and then being driven away from community participation; whoever can capture those people could likely become the default home of mechanical keyboard fans, and the attached brand the default brand.
On the flipside of that is perhaps the geekhack forums, with a ton of elitists that sometimes have little patience for people that are not up to speed.
The forums I find worse are /r/mechanicalkeyboards on Reddit (elitist about customs) and Deskthority (elitist about vintage, and also unmoderated) For mech newbies, I have found various PC-hardware forums to be the most welcoming.
(Unrelated, my personal story:) As is my habit, I got real into researching MKs for a few months, went through 2 (one I liked pretty well but I really missed dedicated home/end keys, and one that had switches that were slightly too tough to push and thus I kept missing letters) before I found my dream one: Mistel MD770 with MX Browns. It’s a split that I can shift around however I like. I love it. Oh, and to finish what I was getting at, as is my habit I can now stop thinking about MKs and will soon forget most everything I learned.
As what switches/layouts/keycaps/etc. folks like are highly subjective and sometimes polarizing, I would often see people espousing opinion as fact. But no one treated me rudely even when I asked dumb questions in their daily discussion/advice threads.
I agree that much of the community consists of essentially bragging to other people about your own keyboards. But I saw even braggarts showing up in newbie threads to try and help other people get into the hobby.
Edit: I will add though, I tend to lurk for a while and gather knowledge before I even ask a newbie question. And I probably fit better with the kind of boys club tech bro culture that you're implying is prevalent (although I can't say I noticed this all too much).
I just bought a crappy razor keyboard specifically for gaming because I rather trash a cheaper keyboard versus my topre.
Let's talk about the layout. As a Vim user, I need my CapsLock->Esc. Fine, so I'll remap Ctrl—but inexplicably, there are huge gaps where the regular Ctrl keys would be. There are no arrow keys or nav cluster, which means you need to use layers or key combinations to access them. I have no problem relearning how to use my keyboard, but dedicated keys are still faster and easier.
This is the part where an HHKB user says I'm doing it wrong. But that doesn't explain the inexcusable absence of Ctrl keys. And that doesn't explain the $300+ price tag when there are better keyboards for half the price.
The one nice thing about the layout is that it keeps the keyboard small. I'd gladly trade a little size for more keys though.
There are other Topre keyboards and Topre clones, as well as good linear switches out there. The switches are not really special anymore. Ten years ago, maybe, but not anymore. If I had to have Topre-like switches, I'd get clones with a better layout and Cherry-compatible stems. This isn't the mid 2000s anymore; there is actual competition in the mechanical keyboard market now.
I think typically vim users will map caps lock to ctrl and use ctrl+[ when escape is needed.
"Easier" is subjective and so I won't address it. As to "faster", I have ♢+{🄸,🄹,🄺,🄻} mapped to {up,left,down,right} making them much quicker to access than reaching for a dedicated cluster of arrow keys.
The ♢ key is to the immediate left of the spacebar and is quickly reachable by my left thumb. 🄹,🄺,🄻 are under the fingers of my right hand in its default home row position and 🄸 is only a very short distance away.
I could put my toilet in my bedroom, would make waking up to piss much quicker, but each room has a purpose and a mood.
The ijkl keys are for typing. The navigation cluster is for navigating. Why mix
There is no excuse, other than being totally obnoxious prick, for using a loud keyboard in an open office.
Does everyone use "Blue" switches over there?
BTW, I don't believe mechanical keyboards are a fad. They're much better than the better rubber dome keyboards. Especially as they age.
You might not think that is a good thing. ..
Logitech is much more consistent, softer, strains my hands less, allows for faster typing.
Rubber dome keyboards become heavier as they age, because their key stems wear down. They become extra heavy when you don't use them for some time, because grease tends to harden as they age. This is not the case with the mechanical switches. They just behave the same, all the time.
On the worst case, a rubber dome keyboard needs so much force and has so much friction that it sprains your hand/fingers (Dell's low end bundled keyboards are an health hazard).
Significantly louder than a standard Dell membrane keyboard, or Logitech MX Keys, or Apple.
On the other hand, there are far more silent mechanical switches available. There are "Silent Brown" switches, "Red" switches without any tactile feedback, or "Silent Red" switches, with even less noise.
If I decide to change my office keyboard one day, I'd buy Red or Silent Brown switches, not because standard Browns are actually annoyingly noisy, but we as people are under stress in the office and get irritated sometimes, and I want to be polite.
As I said before, mechanical keyboards are not about the noise they make primarily, they're much more comfortable to use and they last a long time. Oh, I like the sound of my Browns, but it's just a secondary effect.
Slowly after that, people started bringing in all kinds of mechanical keyboards.
But I do think mechanical keyboards are way too loud, way overpriced, and way overhyped. (But that's just my opinion. I'm sure people would say the same thing about some of the stupid stuff that I'm into.)
You'll miss the sound of cherry mx blues in no time.
And then of course the "Rigorous Japanese Quality Standards", because obviously QC is better if the factory is located in a country containing people of the Japanese ethnicity compared to other ethnicities.
Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it.
I think the Japanese part is being brought up to talk about the cost, as Japan is a higher cost of living country and has higher labour costs as a result. Lots of mass produced "Japanese" goods aren't actually produced in factories with Japanese workers as a result, so the fact that the manufacturing is only done there I think is just highlighting a supply-chain reason for the higher cost (using labour in Japan), without making an argument that the quality comes from that supply chain decision.
Because it's a high quality tool, long time ago the US firm IBM made some high quality keyboards too...long time ago.
BTW: I can buy 6 HHKB for 1 Iphone (what is the luxury item here?)
I have no doubt the pricing on the HHKB and other Topre boards provides a very comfortable profit margin. Which is fine, if people are happy with paying for them then it doesn't hurt my feelings. There are other equal quality boards for significantly cheaper, though that's IMO of course.
Though I'd guess it was a standard accessory - you gonna order an IBM AT PC without a keyboard? Probably not. And that AT would have been around 5000 $ or so, so 250 $ for the keyboard isn't that outrageous. Computers were expensive.
It was my favorite until I got a new thinkpad, with island keys: even if both are membrane, they are just so much better than the mechanical alternatives!
Today I bought a 30 year old model M for $150 :/
I guess it’s still a good deal, but I feel kind of stupid now.
And that's exactly what i wanted to say, quality is expensive and has not much todo with luxury in the first place, it's a high quality tool...basta.
Not that I necessarily agree with that take, like I said if people are still paying what they ask for them then that's great for them.
I've taken apart Topre style boards before. I can absolutely confirm that the internals work differently from a classic rubber dome board.
I'm not about to argue that the different mechanism makes Topres somehow special or worth the price of admission, but there's nothing "alleged" about it. I do love the sound they make, though.
Unlike normal mechs, there is almost no chance you're not bottoming out a Topre anyways, so the actuation point could be at the very bottom of travel and still work the same.
Also I've tried $40 rubber dome Keytronics that had identical snappy Topre action, and the result was so similar I doubt most Topre users would be able to tell them apart (they might even prefer the Keytronic, the keys were much tighter)
This has nothing to do with ethnicity, but mostly work ethics and attention to detail. It is true that this may not apply to all Japanese products, but they are regarded as good manufacturers, akin to German products in Europe.
> Topres are expensive because it's a luxury item and they get away with it.
This is true, they are a luxury item. It is also true that they are inherently more durable than other keyboards based on rubber domes, and perhaps not as durable as many other high end mechanical keyboards.
A couple years ago, during one of my trips to Japan, I went to BICamera and tried some Topres. They are built like tanks, no doubt about it, and the feeling of the heavier switches was rather pleasant. I still like my mechanical keyboard better (have a thing for heavier switches), but I cannot deny it was a quite good product. Perhaps not worth $300, but I could see them in the $150 to $200 range.
This, by the way, is immediately apparent if you are traveling in Japan. You get the impression that the Japanese don't goof off at work. This is especially noticeable with folks who work outside: road work, construction, janitors, etc. Quick, to the point, and you won't see anyone leaning on their shovels like in the US. My already high regard for the Japanese has improved even more after a couple of weeks there.
My father still uses a generic Dell keyboard he got with a PC in 2002 because he didn’t like all the media keys on the keyboards that came with new computers.
So much for legendary QA.
I believe Leopold sells a similar line of non-Topre keyboards as well, certainly possible that the cases are manufactured elsewhere and imported/sent to various factories based on switch type.
Regardless, if final assembly/inspection does occur in Japan, it was quite disappointing to receive a keyboard with such an obvious defect, especially at that price point.
My Lite2 PS/2 Kana-less JP from well before the earthquake is still fine and it was “was $49.99” anywhere back then. I know some RealForce US are real good but no way I’m spending $200 on a keyboard.
Not sure how $200 is any expensive when it makes you feel comfortable for 10 years. Think about return value than the upfront cost.
No, I haven't heard of Topre or seen any reviews until now.
> Topre boards, why are they so expensive? ... $250 ...
Although I suspect many keyboard enthusiasts might usually hover in the $100-$200 range for their pieces, $250 for parts and labor isn't that expensive. The Kinesis Advantage is $350, the Ergodox Moonlander is $370, even Apple's magic keyboard for the iPad is $300 so a $250 isn't cheap, but certainly isn't astronomical compared to what's out there. A lot of cheaper keyboards can be had, but they usually come at the cost of poorer quality or require additional labor and customization.
These might be the closest ones yet: https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard
and the v2: https://hackaday.io/project/178232-lalboard-ergonomic-keyboa...
Those that would like to explore a bit more, in the custom keyboard world the aforementioned switches are mostly considered starters. More popular, people use switches like Gateron Black Ink V2, Alpacas, Tangerines for linear. U4T, Zealios, Kiwis for tactiles. And about 100 different alternatives available based on taste [0].
Combined with a more premium quality board that fits your typing angle and keycaps in a profile you like (you have cherry profile but also KAT, KAM, DSA, and many more to fit your liking) it may differ considerably from pre-built options.
Not saying it will be for you, but discarding mechanical keyboards on base of what the pre-built market offers is not the best measure of things. It is like saying you hate scissor switch keyboards because you typed on an Acer laptop once.
P.s. Be careful as you will quickly learn topre keyboards are not that expensive.
[0] https://www.theremingoat.com/ - popular switch reviewer
What about buying a single $25 off-brand keyboard with off-brand cherry MX keys and liking it well enough that I can't justify even considering a new keyboard with different switches that I might like more?
The matias has the nice tactility of a snappy rubber dome with the benefit of not having to bottom out. I DO bottom out, but I am such a light typer that I sometimes miss keystrokes on other keyboards.
The BTC (??) is sort of a poor man's topre. I like it a lot more than my friends realforce which hardly seems to have any tactility.
With brands like keychron and ducky now providing hotswap options on Q1 or Ducky 3 entering custom builds became a lot easier as these provide big runs which allow you to buy from a shop rather than joining limited group buys with nowadays 6-12 months lead times (and selling out in minutes or taking raffles). It isn't the quality of say Monokei, TGR or Keycult but that is expected for the budget range they play.
Having gone beyond entry market years back I'd say it today still brings me the most joy of any hardware upgrades I make to my computer setup. Walking up to my desk seeing a full custom is something I like.
Matias boards are just no-nonsense boards for typists. I dont like fiddling with my keyboard. No keycaps. No lubing. No swapping switches. I have done that. It is a distraction for me. I like typing on my matias board. When that dies I will get another one or maybe just use my old no-brand dome-with-slider keyboard (probably BTC) that I have used since 1994.
I use a Leopold with Topre 45g silent switches now. It’s not as nice IMO but it works all the time.
I have probably been lucky. A friend had one switch that chattered, but I opened it up and cleaned out some of the lube and it was fine.
That is why I usually recommend the clicky switches. They seem to not have that problem. They feel even nicer to type on IMO, but I am not the kind of guy to spend $150 on a keyboard when I have one that I like (a 2015 secure pro that never had issues).
I don't think it's expensive or a luxury item at all. If you indulge in mechanical keyboards with switches, your expenditures can easily go beyond $250 price tag: you buy expensive, special, limited supply switches because most switches are shit, and then you have to lube all of those or pay someone else to do it because otherwise it feels and sound like shit, then you have to buy a good case and plate because otherwise it sounds shit. Plus trad switches really don't like dust. I bought my FC660C and never did anything else, it works great, it feels great, it looks great, all by default, and it's dust proof.
It's elite/niche so it costs more that regular things you can get off ebay.
I got my last TrackPoint Keyboard II Bluetooth 4Y40X49493 openbox (like new) for $40 shipped. It's silent, battery powered, slim, travels with me all the time.
At this pricepoint, I've a few similar ones, for when I need (say to use with my tablet) - quantity has a quality all its own
> or pay someone else to do it because otherwise it feels and sound like shit
I didn't waste more than a minute when I removed my $40 Thinkpad keyboard from its box.
> it works great, it feels great, it looks great, all by default.
Same, but how much did you pay? And how reasonable is it to get one for your tablet, and another one you'll leave in your car?
They are expensive though. I own three (I've got several computers and I take one with me when I travel) and I love them (daily driver since years and years and years: I can throw anything at them, they're rated for 150 million keypresses... per key) but... I do hate the pricepoint.
Just checking on Yahoo Japan for an HHKB Pro JP like I have: 40 800 JPY / 350 USD / 320 EUR.
Common... However good it is, it's still just a keyboard.
The criticism on the pricepoint / luxury item: I do agree with.
And yet you think $350 is expensive? There must be many more things that return less to you.
Use it for 10 years, that's about $3/month for comfort of daily typing.
> it's still just a keyboard.
Interface is where it matters. Keyboard, display, chair etc. I hate to work with an average keyboard.
I have the RealForce R2 with variably-weighted switches and it is such a pleasant experience to type on that I don't even bother looking at other keyboards any more - there's nothing else I want from a board.
I've added Hasu's board on it a few weeks ago and it's basically a perfect keyboard now.
You can do pretty much anything you can think of. Tap for escape and hold for Ctrl on Caps Lock is in fact something I got on mine. I also coded it for function keys on double tap for the number row, F13 on tap and F14 on double tap on the left corner key (Left Ctrl or Caps Lock depending on your preference) etc. And that's really basic, people put whole macros in there.
[0]: https://qmk.fm
One thing I cant agree with is the claim of superior QC. I had to RMA one due to faulty pcb - pressing Num Lock would cause all the leds to light up, and had another that came with a fairly sticky key (m). Not going back to any other switches though, but i dont think there is any particular care given to them during manufacturing.
It's a mechanical switch with a D shaped tactile bump.
The end result is a bottom out that feels similar to a Topre, but a much crisper action up and down.
So far I like Amber Alps the best by a large margin. They are kind of hard to find though. Like I said though its subjective. There are some people that try every key switch under the sun and still like MX Browns the best. There is no "best" switch and there is no wrong choice.
Also, for the uninitiated, a Topre is a unique type of rubber dome keyboard. Unlike most rubber domes, they actually feel quite nice and better than many mechanical switches. They aren't technically a mechanical switch though.
I have a Topre RealForce BTW. I've chosen it after trying out a bunch of keyboards, some Cherry MX, rubber domes, scissor switches, IBM Model M, ALPS, etc... My first reaction with the Topre was "oh, that one feels really nice" then I looked at the price and "wtf?!". I eventually bought it, because I didn't find anything better, and compared to a good PC, it is not that big of an expense.
I've been using it for 8 years now, and I expect to keep it for many more. Also the author is now wrong saying the cable is the weak point, I had to change it last year, a wire broke inside, which surprised me because despite not being fancy, it looked like a good cable. I blame the way it channels from under the keyboard and the lack of strain relief.
BTW, before my RealForce, my keyboard was a Keytronic KT2001, which I really liked despite being a lowly rubber dome keyboard. In fact, maybe that's the reason why I love Topre so much. Topre switches are essentially better rubber domes.
I'm still faster on buckling spring or Topre though, despite daily driving the ergo. Their lighter force and deeper stroke (4mm versus 3.5 for the Kailhs) just are better for extremely fast typing.
After years of climbing and grappling I am very wary of keyboards that trigger some kind of sensation in my joints. Heavy switches for 6-8 hour typing sessions seem like a recipe for some life—altering RSI
update: I just flipped it over and see that the particular Model M I'm typing on is from 1991.
Has anyone tried both Wooting and Topre? Or for that matter, Wooting and anything they liked as much or better?
Also a callout to Wooting wrist pads, they are sturdy, easy to clean, and feel amazing. The only bad part is availability in different sizes/colors, I've looked for similar products, but no dice.
Is it lighter or heavier than MX Brown?
For office work I strongly prefer the Topre (programming, long form writing, etc).
For fun the Wooting is much more enjoyable.
I got my Wooting 2 HE yesterday, and it feels great, but I think I still prefer the Cherry MX low profile speed switches that I bought by accident (I thought I was buying a replacement for a keyboard with full profile MX speed switches, but I was happily surprised to learn that I preferred the low profile switches). Adjusting the activation height to 1.0mm gets me most of the way there, though.
It's definitely an advert. And if it was a review, it's a really bad one. There's way too many adjectives without the context of actual evidence supporting the claim.
> "Rigorous Quality Standards"
Corporate buzzwords with nothing substantiating that claim. Also, as opposed to what? Other companies not having rigorous quality standards?
> many rave about the way they sound and feel
False consensus effect via argumentum ad populum.
And plenty more...
Money/access/goods has almost certainly changed hands.
Well... If your thing is really clicky, then indeed Topre may not be for you. I do like blues too and I used Model Ms for years (even way clickier than blues) before finding Topre switches. Clicky switches lovers are, I think, a category of their own.
I always think the same when buying condoms...humans probably.
Could never find Cherry MX Blue/Browns which worked for me- always triggered RSI in my outer wrists. Chiclets caused problems in my fingertips from bottoming out.
Topres gave me a decade of heavy coding after battling RSI and I love them for that. But this Niz is making me smile. I'll get another Niz before I go back to my Realforce.
and after all that, i've landed back on the good old Apple Magic keyboard (sans numpad).
I can't really explain why, other than to draw an analogy with my vim configuration. I've found that the more experience I accumulate (almost 20yrs to date), the simpler my vim configuration has become. To the extent that my init.vim is <100 loc from somewhere near 500 at its peak.
I view moving back to the apple keyboard is another simplification of my setup, becoming less reliant on a special keyboard / layout, although this was never my intention at the start. It's comfortable and I can type >100wpm accurately and without undue stress on my fingers or wrists. (caveat - I touch type and use mostly correct fingers for each key).
What i'm realising typing this out is that my loop through the wonderful world of mechanical keyboards was driven from an undercurrent of being generally bored, both from WFH COVID lockdowns and being bored with my current work assignment. The devil makes work eh...
Topre’s are different to the typical cherry style, and well regarded by those who have them. They also rarer than cherry-style keyboards, so there’s more mystery about them.
I’d wager most people will be out of the loop on them, they’re a niche product of a niche hobby. I’m still yet to try them, but maybe one day.
Not in defense of it, the site does seem to be the typical blog model of review and drop an affiliate link.
If you customize lots of things and carry your keyboard to many different computers, I guess doing it in hardware is marginally "better" than just using software, but ctrlcaps is common enough that the software is just there by default.
Low demand keeps prices high? I guess I kind of understand what the author's point is, but that's a somewhat counterintuitive argument. It's not so much the low demand that keeps prices high; it would seem that low demand prevents the product from reaching a level of mass production that would exploit economies of scale which might lower unit costs.
I'm using blue switches today only because I can't find a backlit buckling spring. If such a thing comes to existence, I'll be first in line.
Expensive gadgets make programmers happy...
The real crock is to not buy your employees nice equipment.
1000 lines of code per engineer per week is probably a factor here. Think about a flow where you're bottlenecked by typing something. You then don't finish the thing because you have a sprint planning meeting. You come back and forget where you left off, and never check in the code you half-wrote. If you finished before the meeting, then your line-modified count would have increased by 50 lines or something. But now you spent an hour doing nothing, as far as the lines-of-code counter says. That's a problem!
Typing speed is back pressure on ideas. When a system is overloaded, it should apply back-pressure so that the producer produces less. That's what your keyboard does. The question is: do you want back-pressure against your ideas? If not, you need to add a buffer that can account for the bursts. Typing faster is that buffer.
I believe software folks could take some cues from that practice.
The reliability of the keyboard doesn't matter for software engineers. You just get another $20 one out of the supply closet while you get your next cup of coffee.
(I used to be a big Topre keyboard fan and owned quite a few. I didn't buy them for reliability, though, I bought them because I liked them. That's not a good "enterprise" reason, though, which is why they're not standard-issue for software engineers.)
One issue about Realforce: the configuration software for it is Windows only. Also Topre has said the keyboard might not work properly when connected to a Mac. I get the sense after using one for a while that the keyboard gets confused in a minor way, but beyond that I like the keyboard and expect to use it for a few years.
It generally works out cheaper than prebuilt, but I did end up nickel and diming myself making arbitrary improvements. A good read if don't you want to get sucked into the ridiculous prices of custom keyboards like I did: https://golem.hu/guide/budget-builds/
In India, the best mkb you can buy is a TVS [1], and I am a happy user for many years now. They don't market to mkb hobbyists (e.g. gamers, mkb collectors), but to heavy-duty users such as bank clerks. This kb is affordable, durable, reliable. What more can I ask?
I am not a gamer, but a typist. It's reassuring that the strokes are happening the instant I expect them to. Totally worth the experience.
Like the Microsoft Trackball that was like $30 way back when but is now $200 for a make it yourself kit. By selling millions of them you can make them in a way someone selling a few thousand could never afford to.
However my keyboard journey has lead me to the conclusion that I prefer split keyboards.
Using standard keyboard layouts gives me a lot of pain in my arms. I noticed this pain when using the standard mac keyboard, an ibm model m (this one hurt my fingers as well), or a 60% board.
Right now I'm using a kinesis freestyle 2 and it's tenting feature helps alleviate the pain.
Are there any split keyboards that use topres?
After enough persuasion from my friend, who loves mechanical switches, I bought a silent full-sized Realforce R2 PFU. This is not a game-changer but a nice upgrade of the workspace. Now I am more comfortable with it than with any mechanical switch I tried.
I had a CM Novatouch for a while, which was Topre-based. It wasn't my cup of tea (I'm partial to dampened ALPs switches from old Apple Extended Keyboards), and I eventually sold it, but it was a solid keyboard.
Personally I've been on and off Topres since my first HHKB, about 10 years ago. Gazzew U4Ts / Nixdorks have however changed my mind, and my life.
Or, at least, specific features/qualities to seek out.
Otherwise a lot is going to depend on personal preference, how often you use a numpad or other things, but that's one thing to look for in extended typing.
The main downside is that setting up macros or alternate configurations is a pain. It involves a lot of very specific key presses, with only minimal feedback on the board itself. A proper software utility would be a wonderful feature.
Maybe start with:
https://switchandclick.com/best-mechanical-keyboards-for-typ...
That said, they tend to be biased toward more traditional key layouts. If you're looking for an "ergo" keyboard - split, columnar, whatever - there are fewer review sites that cater to that approach. Also fewer options, though. Especially if you're looking for a low price point.
1. Plastic case. Aluminum cases and metal back plates have become pretty popular, but they are sooo heavy. It's nice when the keyboard has some weight, but I think things have gone too far.
2. No LEDs. A lot of keyboards have LEDs. Backlighting the keys is one thing, but a lot of keyboards just do it for looks and it gets annoying after a while.
3. Cherry MX blues and browns are great switches. A lot of switches have come on the market over the last few years. I think their proliferation is driven by people wanting something new, but Cherry's blue and brown switches are still better than many other switches.
4. Timeless layout. There has been a drive to make keyboards smaller. I agree with this trend, up to a point. If the keyboard is missing keys you need, it's not a good choice for extended typing. Sure, you can remember the hotkeys for the missing characters, but it's still annoying. Also, there isn't really a standard 60% design, so all the manufacturers do it differently. A ten-keyless keyboard might be _slightly_ bigger than I would prefer, but it's got a layout that has withstood the test of time.
It's certainly the oldest piece of technology in my office. I've typed on newer fancier keyboards (and have a 60% for travel), but the Majestouch is still my favourite.
Still, I also recommend Filco, not cheapest but it has taken years of my abuse... Including liquid and poor soldering jobs for swapping switches.
Bought Minila Air as well. Which I have been quite happy to use recently. Maybe need to order second MX Brown board as wireless one...
Was this a Costar-manufactured keyboard? My experience with Costar across multiple brands has been so satisfying, it's been hard to trust that other sources would meet the same standard.
I would recommend the "CODE" keyboard. They make almost every variation you would need (including "silent red" version):
https://www.wasdkeyboards.com/products/mechanical-keyboards/...
It's essentially a WASD brand keyboard with a nicer font on the keycaps and some different switch options.
Pay close attention the key layout you want... especially the enter key. You might be mad if you buy the layout you're not used to.
Edit: I see that it is an o-ring modification.
You can add o-rings to other switches to help reduce the sound of "bottoming out" (when the bottom of the keycap touches the mounting plate or PCB depending on how the keyboard is constructed). But, I don't like the o-ring method because it's not as quiet and it also impacts the key travel, which doesn't always feel nice. Also, the o-ring only helps with the bottoming out sound, and some switches have an actuation point click that also makes sound and the o-ring doesn't change that.
Additional foam, gaskets, etc can help with noise but it's pretty minimal compared to the switch itself.
It's loud, but worth the hundred bucks.
And yes, too loud for the modern office. At home I got used to it and don't really mind anymore. Too heavy to carry around in the back-pack, but I do appreciate the 'heft' on the desk at home.
I wish they made a 100% layout of this model, because Blender.
[1] This is the one I got, but others certainly work: https://www.amazon.com/Cherry-Switch-Tester-keyboard-Sampler...
Having a split keyboard is the most important step IMO to healthy hands, right after getting the right desk height to keep the wrist at the normal angle.
I recommend keeb.io keyboards (I own 3), Sinc (fuller size) or Quefrency. Don’t let the aesthetic confuse you - they are much better quality than anything factory made.
If you are looking for a more traditional keyboard - look at Kinesis offerings (they have several split mech boards, I own Freestyle, but retired it in favor of Keeb.io stuff)
I hear people like Digma Raise as well, but i never used it.
YMDK has a 65% split board on Drop i think.
Seriously, go for the split one.
In my case, I've fallen in love with my Corsair gaming one with blue switches. The red backlight is ugly, but it's actually comfortable when used in a dark room.
I have a leopold with browns I bought used for $40 years ago plugged into my work laptop, and a cooler master with cherry browns and backlighting I use on my desktop that cost me a little over $100. I did get one keyboard with gateron switches because they're cheaper than cherry switches, but one of the keys was failing within months. I have stuck with cherry switches since.
I've been on the fence for a few years about buying a kinesis advantage 2. The layout does seem like it would make typing much more comfortable and ergonomic.
If you want tactile switches they are a great option. Cherry MX browns are linear compared to a snappy rubber dome.
For linear switches I would say maybe the varmilo EC ones? Almost all contactless switches are extremely smooth. The varmilo keyboards are no-nonsense keybaords with good build quality.
For clicky I would say Matias yet again. They are extremely tactile. I haven't seen any reliability issues reported with them, even in non-matias keyboards.
The best mechanical keyboards to me were Brown switches and black ones so far the best ones for coding, gaming and general internet usage.
I always encourage people to try as much until you find the best one.
It just feels great. Probably too loud, and no clickyness. Just a nice solid THUNK.
Also it puts the ctrl key in the right spot. I always have to remap caps lock and ctrl.
I've tried them all. I even have a "tester" with a matrix of dozens of different key switches. Kailh Box White is my second fav
I thought I liked them when I first got them but after two years of daily use, I gotta say they're not for me. I'm clearly slower and making more typos than e.g. with MX browns. Next keyb is probably going to be low profile reds.
But last month I bought this: https://kbdfans.com/products/fully-assembled-60-plastic-mech... just to try something else, and it's plesant but pretty far from a HHKB! Also for some strange reason the shift/ctrl buttons don't work with Java Minecraft on linux! Go figure, probably some odd LWJGL + TWM bug?
That keyboard has exactly the layout I want. But every single split keyboard has a horrific layout. Why can't there be a split keyboard with a normal layout and good keys..
This paragraph was worth the price of admission for me.
I'll never go back. My only regret is not buying all of the colored keycap sets when they were available. I'm missing two.
> For many years, they held the patent on Topre switches. However, in the mid-2000s, that patent expired. Despite other companies now being able to make Topre-clones, the Topre name was exclusive for many years and gained quite a reputation for themselves.
Have a 100% Realforce in ISO GER layout for number crunching and "general" computing. F Keys, numpad.
My fav board so far is the FC660c silent. Top notch quality. The silencing makes me appreciate the Topre feel even more. Small form factor to have a short distance to grab the mouse. That helps my shoulder. Getting old, I guess. My only wish is for a BT version.
If you want a widget it will be made on a general purpose machine with skilled labor. If you a dozen some simple jigs will made, the jig costs as much as a widget(ofte more ), but lowers the effort to make more. By the time you get into the tens of millions it is worth making custom machines for each step.
So if internal scan rate is 30Hz or 33ms and poll rate is 125Hz or 8ms then worse case latency is 33+8=41ms and average latency is about half that or ~20ms.
Note that a Topre keyboard is no worse latency-wise than an Apple Bluetooth keyboard, and most people who use Apple's wireless keyboards don't notice the latency is so high, nor do I ever hear people complain that Apple's wireless Bluetooth mouse is only 90Hz polling instead of the standard 125Hz for PC mice and the standard 1000Hz for gaming mice. An online mouse rate checker gives fairly accurate results:
https://clickspeeder.com/mouse-rate-checker/
I ended up preferring Cherry MX Silent keyboards over Topre. They are linear whereas Topre has a bit of snap-down due to its rubber domes. It's really personal preference which you will prefer. I like linear better. Cherry MX is a bit scratchier but after a month of use the keys get a bit smoother and many people lube Cherries with Krytox teflon grease to make them smoother. I suspect most would prefer Cherry MX Silent Red which has a 60 gram bottom out force but there is also Cherry MX Silent Black which has an 80 gram bottom out force. The MX Silent Black is most similar to how piano keys feel (with much shorter ~3.6mm key travel though).
The two best MX Silent boards I tried were the Durgod Taurus K320 available from Amazon ($100-$150) and the Ducky One 2 available from mechanicalkeyboards.com ($100-$110). Both have PBT keycaps (like the legendary IBM Model M which I also love but which is too loud and clacky for my quiet audio workstation) and have quiet stabilizers straight out of the box that don't rattle and don't need to be lubed or messed with. (And the worst Cherry Silent board I tried was Cherry's own MX Silent Board which was incredibly loud.)
rtings.com does keyboard latency tests and found that the Ducky One 2 has a total latency of about 7-8ms whereas the Durgod is ~16ms. The Ducky also house built-in macro reprogramming with no janky Chinese Windows tool download needed.
But the Ducky's PBT keycaps were quite rough for my fingertips so I replaced them with smoother PBT sets from Amazon. The Mistel and Tecware keycaps are both smoother PBT and very nice. The Tecware keycaps are only $20, amazing value.
These capacitive switches were originally designed for the need of extreme reliability, like for buttons in power station control panels, industrial equipment, etc.
Switches themselves are cheap, but chips for the capacitive readout for each button isn't, or at least weren't 20 years ago.
I want to make mechanical switches with equal reliability, and no bounce.
if one wants to look at mechanical keyboards, there are a wide range of better alternatives, look around they aren't that hard to find
don't believe price = quality when it comes to keyboard, it is far from being the truth, we got the perfect example here...
I only regret not getting a Norbauer case for it, despite its price.
The typing experience of Topres' is noticeable whether you come from domes or mechanical keyboards. They feel in-between. I have arthritis in my right pinky. A 35g topre keyboard is perfect. (I also tried 35g mechanical switches but it did not feel as smooth).
With my Topre, I wasn't able to do that, and even though it feels pretty cushiony at the bottom it still left me with some soreness. But maybe it's just too heavy.
What keyboard did you get?