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Comment by Reason077 | Hacker News Reader

Tesla's German factory does seem to be encountering more than its fair share of regulatory snags and delays, even by German standards. You have to wonder if perhaps some of Germany's incumbent automakers are pulling the strings of friendly politicians, ensuring that progress does not go too smoothly or quickly for Tesla?

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Personally, I find it more likely that some executives thought they could skirt some regulations because they are creating jobs and local officials will look the other way or make some exception. At least that is the impression one often gets when looking how things get done in the US.

> they are creating jobs

As I understand they'll mostly be filled by the polish workforce, they didn't built it so close to the border for no reason.

https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/en/building-delays-at-tesla-...

But just for clarity, this is completely legal, isn't it? Polish people have the right to work in the EU, like all the other EU residents, or not?

Yes, but it may not bring enough goodwill for regulators to ignore other things they are doing which may be illegal which was the suggestion up-thread.

Yes, this is one of the freedoms [0] of the European Single Market, in particular this one [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#%22Four...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#Free_mo...

The playbook in the US is to argue that a factory will create US jobs. State and local governments are willing to play ball with the expectation of increased activity and taxes.

Building a plant on the US-Mexico border will not be seen as kindly if it's perceived that they are not using US labor.

The article that you linked mentions Polish _construction_ workers. I honestly doubt the areas next to the border would get you enough workforce to get you a mostly Polish staff - the border is 50min away and the closest cities are relatively tiny.

Or maybe the math somehow works out, but I doubt it.

The math works very well when you know Polish wages, just like people living close to Switzerland (ie <2h commute) still go there en masse, doubling or tripling your salary is very attractive for most people.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/digpub/eumove/bloc-2c.ht...

> In 2019, the largest number of cross-border workers among the Member States were for those living in Poland and working in Germany (122 000 people)

I am in no way a Musk apologist but the polish workforce you are refering to is the construction workers.

Yes, for now, because that's all they need, but when they start looking for low/middle skilled workers I wouldn't be surprised if the mast majority of them will be Polish workers

As a German: I feel the opposite is the case. This project has received enormous local (and even national) political support (as in, government straight saying "we want this" and leaning on the apparatus to expedite), and has coasted extremely far on temporary permits, sometimes fashioned rather shadily, to become "too big to fail". Some of those permits happened even after Tesla proactively violated rules by just building things without asking, as I understand, factoring penalties into business plans and relying on lenient interpretation. Germany's incumbent automakers are probably rather incensed about Tesla getting to build a major factory on Easy Mode here and having to put little effort into understanding the process or the culture.

I don't have any particular opinion on whether this is good or bad at the moment, but it's certainly fascinating to follow ...

My understanding of the situation is that German permitting is pretty complicated, so normally companies wait before diving in so everything is cleared up first. You can imagine that kind of restraint isn't Tesla's style, so rather than clearing hurdles from the track ahead of time, they're just running into each one. I'm not familiar enough to know if there are more or worse hurdles in this specific instance, but it definitely makes for a juicier headline when Tesla slams into a hurdle than when another company deals with it before they've broken ground.

That Tesla's way of operating has lots of potential to clash with German bureaucracy/culture is certainly true to some degree but in this case, an administrative process was changed with possibly not enough time in advance for everyone to notice or react. Since the office is unsure how the change would hold up in court, they are re-doing it out of an abundance of caution. (At least this is how I read the article.)

Maybe headlines like this are necessary to create change?

What good is it to have a legislative body, elections, and laws, if we then allow rich companies to ignore these laws at their discretion?

Technocrats love to imagine that their laws are infallible unfortunately laws must always be challenged regularly or else you will end up with too much regulation over time as political momentum encourages new laws to constantly be added while old laws are rarely reexamined. That's why you've got places where anal is still illegal.

I'm not sure what you'd want to change, honestly. The regulations are, presumably, there for a reason, and shouldn't have a "but if you're Elon Musk, that's okay" get-out clause.

No I'm actually pretty sure that I do. Get out of the way of progress.

If we wanted progress, we'd build rail tracks. This factory is for toys for rich people.

Musk has done more for the world than you ever will.

If I did nothing and twiddled my thumbs I'd have a more positive net impact on the world than the son of an Emerald miner in Apartheid South America exploiting workers, busting unions and polluting the world with make believe computer money and phallic objects shot into the sky for no particular reason

In real life SpaceX is a company that gets paid by other companies and organizations to launch rockets into space. They also have the first reusable rocket which is a clear and direct technological improvement for the human race. It is also likely to ensure we won't go extinct from one rock hitting our planet.

The fact that you can't get over yourself for two seconds to comprehend this kind of shows you have no clue what you're even talking about.

Change in the way Elon operates, i.e. actually follow laws? I doubt it.

Change in the way the German government operates? I hope not, but I also doubt it.

From what I've seen Tesla is trying to push through this factory from land acquisition to first production at an extraordinarily fast pace.

These projects usually take many years and Tesla tried to basically do it in one and is annoyed that it is stretching out to two.

In the big picture 2-3 years to get a new large auto factory online is pretty normal. There are definitely some parallels to SpaceX in Boca Chica, TX. They both are hitting regulatory delays, but stepping back it seems they are the result of intentionally trying to "move fast and break things" with their development timelines.

That is definitely the case in Boca Chica, TX and there may even be a conflict of interests with the environmental assessment being used instead of the full environmental study. SpaceX is going way beyond what was originally permitted by the FAA.

Edit: Citation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bdkcoiFaN0

What is "way beyond"? They're permitted for a 27 engine kerosene rocket, they want to switch to a 33 engine methane rocket. A kerosene spill is much worse locally than a methane spill since methane evaporates.

They're hoping to add a 250MW power plant which would be a major change but that would be part of a different environmental assessment.

Citation needed -- and that silly TechCrunch article isn't a citation.

They raised a howl because the plans say they will start on a power plant, whose impact is considered -- but 'oh my goodness, where will the gas come from? A well? Trucks? Oh my!'

Well -- that literally may not be known yet, as is when and whether they'd get close to running it at anything like capacity.

And that's not a problem; Texas has power plant regulators, and pipelines have their own paperwork and process.

The FAA regulating this is a bit funny anyway. :) Eventually that'll change, but right now they're doing a good job handling these weird corners of their responsibility with grace.

By German standards they're actually doing remarkably well so far. I imagine we'll screw it up very shortly though, one does not simply bypass the central bureaucracy and expect to get away with it.

I give it a 50/50 that they'll have to pull out of Germany, losing all the money they put in so far.

Never. That would be disastrous for all politicians involved. Tesla has support from the highest ranks of the state government.

The politicians don't control the process, though, or at least in a well-ordered state they shouldn't. There are rules, which are adjudicated by the civil service and ultimately the courts, not the local politicians.

I mean, it being Tesla, my guess would be that they just didn't do their homework.

It's difficult not get conspiratorial when it comes to incumbents protecting their empires. But Tesla did try to rush the process so this is fairly expected. However you would really think that the environmental ministry could fast-track this considering how much (Net) positive impact it will have.

How much net positive impact will it have?

Incidentally the conservative chancellor candidate that took a media opportunity with Musk to demonstrate his otherwise non-existent interest in renewable energy not only lost the election but also displayed so much incompetence over the last year that his party saw him as radioactive enough to replace him in all of his positions.

It's possible the problem isn't so much that regulators are trying to play dirty against Musk but so inept at trying to cut corners to win this "prestige project" that they actually cause overhead by being caught and having to do things again properly.

I'd say generally speaking Tesla's perception in Germany is positive and politicians are more inclined to bend rules in Tesla's favors rather than against. There are just limitations to what you can get away with.

> Incidentally the conservative chancellor candidate that took a media opportunity with Musk to demonstrate his otherwise non-existent interest in renewable energy not only lost the election but also displayed so much incompetence over the last year that his party saw him as radioactive enough to replace him in all of his positions.

That said, the major angel for the Tesla project is the local state government of Brandenburg, which is led by the SPD, the party that emerged strongest in the national election. The CDU is also in Brandenburg's gov coalition, but I don't think Laschet's (national CDU candidate) Musk election campaign media stunt had much relation to anything.

Sure, my point was more that for many politicians and public officials this is an easy prestige project. "E-mobility" is a big talking point in German politics.

We also have a proud history of industrial corruption in Germany (we call it "Klüngel" because that sounds nicer), especially when it comes to public construction projects.

I find it a lot more likely that the failures are the result of a mix of public officials being overly hasty in trying to pave the road (so to speak) and making promises they couldn't deliver on, than that this is entirely down to traditional car manufacturers using their political leverage against Tesla. Especially given the location of the factory.

Yep, totally agree with your take.

More likely incompetence; legendary BER (10 years delayed, construction went on for 15 years or so) is just a few km from this site.

That wasn't incompetence, a lot of people got really rich building that...

Are you saying in Germany there are enough rich greedy German businessesmen who will further enrich themselves so obviously on taxpayer money with the help of German politicians feigning corruption as incompetence? In Germany, the most efficient country in Europe? Nein, I can't believe that! Everyone knows only South/Eastern Europe is corrupt, never Germany. /s

At higher levels I'd actually say incompetence and corruption are basically synonymous in Germany. Even when people casually mention incompetence (e.g. Andreas "Andi" Scheuer), they know and mean corruption, just not proven (yet).

Germany somehow manages to have the reputation that there isn't "low level corruption", though there is plenty of that to go around.

Having worked closely with a lot of C levels in Automotive, Banking and now Energy in Germany, I can easily say this is the most corrupt place I've ever worked. Morally and Financially..

>this is the most corrupt place I've ever worked

Out of curiosity, what are your other points of comparison?

London, Netherlands, New York, Zurich and Paris.

It's difficult not get conspiratorial when it comes to incumbents protecting their empires; it's a lot easier call-in a favour with a politician than to build better electric cars ... But Tesla did try to rush the process so this is fairly expected. However you would really think that the environmental ministry could fast-track this considering how much (Net) positive impact it will have.

Net positive impact including the "usage" of 372000 liters of water per hour [1].

[1] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/372-000-liter-pro-stu...

Great read, thanks for sharing.

Water use is a bit of a misnomer though. It's not like agriculture where the water gets "fed" to plants and mostly evaporates.

Tesla plans to recycle/reuse most of the water at the Giga Berlin plant: https://insideevs.com/news/526187/tesla-minimizes-water-use-...

And yes, the positive impact of electric cars even considering all raw materials and water is unequivocal.

From the TFA:

> Authorities decided to repeat the process after

> environmental groups disputed in a separate case

It's environmental NGOs who cause this trouble for Tesla.

> pulling the strings of friendly politicians

You are no doubt referring to the Brandenburg state premier who entered into totally democratic secret negotiations with Tesla and then presented the imminent construction of the factory as fait accompli to his surprised electorate?

A big immediate cause of problems seems to be hundreds of official protests from local citizens and (not necessarily local) environmentalist groups. Whether or not German car companies have something to do with that is anyone's guess (no sarcasm).

Wouldn't surprise me.

German automakers are well known for their lobbying

It's a huge slice of the GDP, what do you expect?

I mean, let's compare this to the rather celebrated South Korean court decision to force Google/Apple into giving up control over in-app payments: Great for the customers and for competition and for developers, but it's also no accident it happened in a country where Samsung has every business interest in the outcome.

Yes, it's really sad.

If they were so remarkable in lobbying then tesla probably wouldn't be able to start building their factory in the first place.

Tesla does not yet have an official construction permit for the plant. They have simply started building at risk.

They have been granted multiple permits, however the final and most important one is still missing - yes.

But there is a high likelihood that they will be getting this one as well - at least according to the latest information I could find...

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