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Comment by ranieuwe | Hacker News Reader

Had a bat in the house two weeks ago and our cats killed it. Contacted WA Department of Health and had to go through all the procedures.

The amount of misinformation and conflicting procedures we got from all the health professionals was staggering. Some said PEP right away, others told us no risk. Cats needed no boosters said the vet, but by law they did. Also had to quarantine the cats (120 days). Confusion all around and incredibly frustrating.

We had the bat tested, it was a $100 + $75 to ship a frozen bat to another state. If you can’t afford that, you are hosed. Thankfully it was negative.

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A similar incident happened to me about two years ago. Cats caught a bat around mid-late August, proudly brought it in and dropped it by me. Still kicking, the bat took off and flew into a ceiling fan.

I called animal control, they were out in about 30min to pick it up. Called the vet, cats were up to date on their vax, recommended boosters, explained that a 45 day quarantine was required. Animal control got back in touch about 48 hours later with the results - negative. I didn’t need to pay anything.

I’m also in the Mountain West, and although I’ve never encountered a rabid animal, apparently rabid skunks, bats, and raccoons aren’t uncommon around here. Animal control responds to these incidents pretty quickly.

I know skunks are one of the biggest carriers of rabies, and they are found even in big cities. A housecat that roams outside and has a scuffle with one could easily bring it home if the cat has not had its shots.

If it makes you feel any better, NH is about the same. We had a cat kill a bat overnight (except not all the way dead, as I found out). I wound up boxing the thing, leaving it in a cooler we never used any more and then driving it to the state hospital for testing because Fish and Game called me and walked me through an extensive flow chart style quiz about whether I needed to have it tested or not.

Easily 20 questions, Choose-Your-Own-Adventure-style. Except the last goddamn question was, "Was the animal you encountered a bat? If so, yes, get it tested".

Maybe the need to think about rearranging the order of the questions. Seems like #20 => #1 would simplify a lot of things.

At first I thought the same thing. But think about it a little more and it's not that simple... (which is why I think others downvoted you).

No, if it seems like it wasn't that simple I told it poorly. It was definitely that simple.

There was a This American Life episode with a story about a woman attacked by a rabid raccoon. She called a few local health departments but since it was the weekend they were all closed so she left voicemails. She then went to the ER and was told that she had 10-14 days to get vaccinated.

Luckily one of the health departments called back and let her know she actually needed to get a rabies vaccination within 72 hours of the attack, which means she needed it today.

She was referred to her county's health department who informed her that they wanted to test the raccoon for rabies first and the closest lab was 2 hours away. After pleading with them they referred her to a hospital in another county, who refused to give it to her because she was from a different county. After pleading with them they finally gave her the shot, but in the wrong place.

She then had to fight with eight separate doctors to give her the 5 follow-up shots.

Kind of curious how that works, you just show up with a frozen bat in a box at USPS and they accept it?

Yes, if you comply with the relevant regulations.

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_008.htm#ep184109

526.7 Dead Animals or Parts of Animals

"GROUP A: Items that need to be refrigerated"

"GROUP B: Items that must be dried"

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_003.htm#ep183811

521 General Requirements

"protection of animal specimens against spoilage"

"Mailers are urged to work with postmasters"

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096

349.23 Dry Ice

"containers that permit the release of carbon dioxide gas and conform to 49 CFR 173.217 and 175.10(a)(10)"

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_029.htm#ep1000804

USPS Packaging Instruction 9A

"must be clearly marked “Carbon Dioxide Solid, UN1845” Or “Dry Ice, UN1845”"

Yup. Had to pack bat in a freezer ziploc and stick it in the freezer. Then when shipping, pack it in another freezer ziploc with paper towels (for moisture) and a blue ice pack (no dry ice).

After that, put in a box with a UN 3373 category B label affixed to it. Add contents list to the box as required by the label and after that drop off with your mail company of choice (UPS in our case).

Seems to be a common thing, no one bat an eye :)

Ooo, fancy. "Biological Substance"! I missed that USPS would classify this as infectious matter, which is where they're hiding that UN requirement.

Not an answer, but there was an excellent thread about this topic this year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28210780

Is it any different from Omaha Steaks shipping you some frozen steaks and burgers? As long as your box doesn't leak or smell, nobody at USPS is going to open it.

Yes. Omaha Steaks conform to USDA regulations and are regulated under 55 Meats, rather than 52 Animals:

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_011.htm

However, there is 349.23 Dry Ice, which applies to any package using it, whether meat or animal or other:

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096

Note that USPS also requires you to declare if a package contains Perishable or Hazardous goods, and label it clearly if it's being mailed under 52 Animals:

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_004.htm

If you fail to do so, they can in theory fine you or have you arrested — especially for failing to declare dry ice, which falls under Hazard Class 9, the "miscellaneous" class:

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_004.htm

"Anyone who mails, or causes to be mailed, a nonmailable or improperly packaged hazardous material can be subject to legal penalties (i.e., fines and/or imprisonment)"

and are regulated under 55 Meats, rather than 52 Animals

Talk about your "you must be fun at parties"; and this isn't necessarily directed at you, floatingatoll, but when I see comments like this I often wonder if it's a case of "memorizes USPS shipping rules for fun" or more likely "worked on a contract once where we had to codify USPS shipping rules into an application, so I don't have them memorized but sure as hell know where to look".

For example, I've written code for computers to consume for the vast majority of my career. But go ahead and ask me the finer points of cellophane manufacturing...please, I've been waiting years for it to come up in conversation.

The latter is closer than the former, but I’ve put in a lot of time reading postal regs and studying library classification over the years, so I can navigate their index pretty quickly, is all.

I would like to sign up for cellophane facts.

I, too, would like to hear stories about cellophane manufacturing.

Mike, you should hook up with The Prepared email newsletter and ask to be a guest author some week. They would be super excited to have you participate. :)

Man, tough crowd. One smart ass remark turns into writing a newsletter article. :-) In seriousness, I'll make an honest effort at seeing if I can come up enough interesting paragraphs, and then check The Prepared (a new one to me). Here's a preview of what I learned on my first day: cellophane is made from wood (which gets pulped, and broken down with nasty chemicals). I always assumed it was some kind of plastic. I was there to get them off that mainframe, but hung out with those on the floor when I could.

Depending on one's career path, though, I think we all collect little tidbits along the way that are way outside of the software craft. I was a partner in a consulting company back in the 90s, and we specialized in small-medium businesses. Anything from cellophane to auto body shops to mail-order jewelry (class rings and the like). It wasn't always interesting (see: mail-order jewelry), but my "TIL" moments were probably more frequent than any other time.

https://theprepared.org/newsletter-archive/2021-09-27

A post about cellophane would be perfect for this audience :)

Agreed -- I already subscribe to the Prepared and can vouch for their readers' acute interests in manufacturing technology.

To be honest, just dealing with this once can make you remember it for eternity.

For example, I know that if I want to declare a computer peripheral to the customs, there is a good chance to get the correct TARIC code in the chapter that literally starts with "Nuclear reactors"...

Like a lot of things in life, it probably falls under "don't ask, don't tell", probably with some dry ice thrown in for good measure.

Mailing dry ice without following proper procedures as you describe can result in you being fined or arrested by the postal service, especially if your unlabeled dry ice injures a postal worker. Please don't put human beings at risk for the sake of laziness in mailing. There are good reasons for the rules, even if they're frustrating.

I knew there would be a comment like this. Excuse my while my eyes roll several loops in my skull.

Yes, mailing stuff that requires labeling without those labels can get you in deep shit (because the feds don't really do shallow shit).

That doesn't mean everyone doesn't do it left and right.

Go buy some refrigerated food or medication off eBay and see how it ships. Heck, a certain country will ship you all manner of truly dangerous things in nothing more than a bubble wrap envelope.

The amount of dry ice required to refrigerate a bat (or tub of caviar, or niche cheese, or whatever) is easy to package safely. Throw it in a rag in a strofoam temp cooler. Do a non-terrible job boxing it up and it won't get out in any form other than as a gas.

This is one of the many cases where the behavior of the average individual is not in accordance with the law and (as 20+yr of eCommerce have shown us) nothing bad happens except in cases of exceptional stupidity.

I know that "but the law" and assumptions of stupidity of the general public make for easy points around here but neither complaint is materially relevant in this situation.

"Do a non-terrible job boxing it up and it won't get out in any form other than as a gas."

It sounds like you're assuming dry ice is only dangerous in terms of cold burns.

The gas, carbon dioxide, is dangerous as well. People have died transporting dry ice in a vehicle. CO2 isn't the most dangerous gas, but in an enclosed space like a delivery vehicle it can cause problems. A delivery service needs to consider the cumulative effects of all packages. Your dry ice package may not be the only one in a vehicle.

Individuals without experience are generally not capable of doing a thorough risk assessment, which is why regulations are so important.

Not disputing the dangers of CO2 in an enclosed space, but I'm going through my memory* of USPS/UPS delivery trucks, and not one of them have been enclosed. Sliding doors are always open. Semi-trucks are enclosed, yes, but humans are not in the enclosed areas.

*ymmv on your area

I'm sure driving with the doors open in many delivery trucks helps as well, but I'm just as sure there are vehicle configurations where air is circulated between both areas and/or share an enclosed space.

Keep in mind, this is also an aviation concern as well as loading/unloading. Resting in the backs of trucks on break, etc.

My son flies cargo for FedEx in a smallish (Cessna Caravan) regional plane. It's pretty enclosed.

*ymmv applies here

As seen elsethread, there is one single model of plane in the entire air cargo freight industry that's able to protect the humans onboard from the atmospheric exposure risks of dry ice, so technically that's still YMMV, but realistically it's not, and thus the FAA warning last December.

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/dry-ice-the-russian-an-124...

There’s also air, sea, and rail transport to consider.

Again though, how many people are hanging out with the cargo in air/sea/rail transport?

Domestic air cargo flights typically have 2-3 crew members on board. They're inside the same pressure hull as the cargo; there's no barrier or filter. That's why dry ice must be declared and requires special handing for air transport.

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/faa-issues-dry-ice-alert-t...

Does someone crawl into the cargo compartment to unload it the moment its door is opened? If that person got caught in a CO2 pool they could plausibly fall unconscious & at least start suffocating before coworkers noticed they were absent for too long.

Yes, people knowingly set aside safety guidelines for their personal convenience all the time. Many NTSB investigations end up saying “pilot apparently skipped pre-flight checklist”. As with all such things, it’s fine until it’s not, and when something does eventually go wrong (and it will), the blame will rest on your shoulders for taking safety shortcuts. So I choose not to gamble the safety of others to avoid having to label a package as Dry Ice, even if others take the gamble instead.

just today I was thinking about how more and more organisations show signs of systemtaic overload and cluelessness. even if you pay specifically for a service supposed to handle situations and shield you from further complications of specific incidences there is no guarantee they know what they are doing or - and that's one of the core reasons for this class of problems - know what their subcontractors are doing. often those don't even care because they themselves are shielded by other insurances and the responsibilites are passed on endlessly like a hot potato. a similar very recent problem would be the various supply chain issues we are experiencing. nobody seems to have close grip on things anymore. like playing the telephone game we can just hope the message is passed on uncurropted and the answer doesn't get stuck somewhere or also corrupted which might trigger just the next misunderstanding. it's totally nuts.

DEAD BAT DO NOT EAT

Similar story to friends of mine, only in their case the bat tested positive. They had to get the full series of shots.

Their cat who found the bat was already vaccinated but they had to take it to the vet for a booster. The cat does not travel well, so it got freaked out in the car and was sick, including foaming at the mouth. There was a new tech at the vet who I guess hadn’t been informed of the situation, so when my friends walked in and said “hi, our cat needs a rabies booster,” the tech was suitably freaked out for the 30 seconds it took them to explain.

Well a buddy of mine found a bat in the backyard here in Portland. Went to dispose of it and the thing was still alive!

He called the Audubon Society – they wanted him to bring it in for rehab, which meant no rabies test. The animal can only be tested if dead.

The bad had an accident, died, and he sent it to Oregon State to be tested. It was positive!

Lesson, do not handle bats without extreme care, make sure your pets are vaccinated, and get the creature tested.

https://www.multco.us/multnomah-county/news/rabid-bat-found-...

Ours was sent to Oregon State too, they got back to us with test results within 6 hours of delivery - 20 hours after I shipped it from the Seattle area. Was pretty impressive :-)

Are you still doing PEP? I feel like betting your life on a $100 test of a frozen, shipped bat is really risky.

No, DOH + us decided against PEP because the bat didn't get near us. They asked us in umpteen different ways whether or not that was the case.

DOH seemed quite reluctant prescribing PEP mentioning too that it is quite an intensive treatment (who gives though, being dead being the other option).

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