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Comment by tastyfreeze | Hacker News Reader

I don't understand why many workstation-class laptops DONT have a num pads.

It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one.

This debate makes me wonder what it'd be like to have a keyboard layout in which the num pad is in the middle of the keyboard, such that on a qwerty keyboard Q-T, A-G, Z-V are on one side and Y-P, H-L, B-M on another, with the numbers in the middle (separated by a buffer space).

I know this sounds crazy, but IME the worst part of keyboard ergonomics on mac laptops is that my hands are much closer together than my shoulders are; widening to shoulder width makes for much more comfortable typing.

I'm sure nobody will crazy enough to build a laptop like this, but it makes me wonder...

Nice idea. Keyboard design is stuck in typewriter era and my shoulders and wrists could use an ergonomics upgrade. There's nice split keyboards, but the price is steep (~300 euros vs my current sub 10 euro keyboard).

I've been typing on a ~60eur let's split for the better part of a year now. Made myself some nice armrests out of scrps of locust. My more expensive keyboards don't hold a candle to it imo

By "scrps of locust" do you mean scraps of Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) wood?

I agree you probably won't find this in a laptop ever, thanks to the standard keyboard design still being stuck with strange quirks, some of which were already outdated in the era of actual typewriters.

That said if you're a numpad user a keyboard with centered numpad is pretty much the best concept other than the rabbit hole of custom ergonomic keyboard layouts. Either way you can only get into that realm with a lot of money unfortunately.

Go down the rabbit hole! :) You’re one text file away from plopping a numpad anywhere you want on the laptop’s keyboard. Right Alt + K is the center of a numpad on my XPS 13.

Oh don't worry, I'm already neck deep. Anything other than a 40% columnar staggered layout doesn't cut it anymore ;)

Many Korean tripartite (세벌식) keyboard layouts have a virtual numpad accessible with shift. In a particular layout I'm using [1] it is HJKL:YUIOP for 0 through 9, so you can type 3.141592 with shift plus L.J:JYPK. Note that most symbols from the numpad can also be typed with shift, and full stop and comma can be specifically typed with or without shift. To me it is much better than the ordinary numpad (even at the middle) because it only takes two rows instead of three rows.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sebeolsik_Flnal.svg

As someone with a disability who types with one hand, please for the love of God don't make this the standard

I've considered it!

I use an ErgoDox, and there's just enough space in the middle for a numpad.

But I often stick my phone there, and I just don't think I'd use it very often. Technically I can pop up a layer to turn the right side keys into a numpad (advantage of ortholinear) but I don't quite have the muscle memory to really take advantage of it so that's basically wasted.

I've mulled over having a special lighting routine that lights up only those characters, in distinct colors, that would probably get me close enough. But it's just enough hassle that I never get around to it.

I've been thinking about buying a trackpad and an ergodox and putting the trackpad in the middle. Think it will fit? Think that's a good idea? Where do you put the mouse when using an ergodox?

I have a Moonlander and a Magic Trackpad. I tried putting it in the middle and you can make it fit, but I haven't found it to be very comfortable. My keyboard is slightly tilted, so moving my hand to the middle also necessitates vertical movement, so overall I prefer it off to the right side. For minor movements I just use a mouse mapped to the keyboard and I want to try a trackball on my right as well.

I use a trackball to the right of the righthand side

A trackpad should fit, because you really want the halves parallel to your shoulders or just a bit tighter. Though as I think about the movements and gestures, you might find one of the halves interfering by being where your wrist naturally wants to be.

That does sound neat and would actually be quite withing the realm of possibility for a System76 laptop since their controllers are open-source. If you got like 50 people to chip in, you could probably get the production cost for one unit under 100$, which is still cheaper than most desktop split keyboards on the market.

You could always get this e-ink keyboard that is being crowd-funded the nemeio where you can I guess completely customize the keys https://www.nemeio.com/ - seems interesting and could allow you to easily explore alternative layouts but not sure how good the ergonomics of a keyboard like that would be but it seems interesting to me.

I've been vaguely pining for an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad in the middle. In a typical display of mainstream keyboard makers being completely stuck on the same track, keyboards with an embedded trackpad have it on the right, despite laptops providing a ubiquitous example right in our faces and hands.

Interesting... are there any keyboards with a trackball in a position easily accessible by the right thumb? (I haven't used a trackball myself but I've heard good things...)

EDIT: hadn't seen the sibling commenter mention https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/ which looks interesting, but perhaps too minimal for my taste (eg; where's the space button?)

Ergodox, if you're reading this, an integrated trackpad/trackball solution would be pretty appealing!

Afaik the ‘Ultimate Hacking Keyboard’ does that via its modules: http://xahlee.info/kbd/iergo/UHK_addon_modules_trackball_330...

Turns out it even has a touchpad, though its size is pitiful. Alas the whole keyboard reeks more of ‘mechanical + wacky layout‘ approach, with dubious ergonomics aside from the split halves.

Otherwise, trackballs on keyboards don't seem too rare: image search turns up this Adesso board (https://www.hippo-deals.com/products-images/1500/65915.jpg or better-ish https://www.adesso.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2017061601...), something named KeyTronic, etc.

This 100%. Or a trackball. Look up the oddball keyboard or the ultimate hacking keyboard with its modules concept.

I've been thinking of getting an ergodox and putting a trackpad in the middle..not sure if the windows Trackpads on Amazon will work on Linux though.

Get an mnt reform and build your own :D Or just invest the few bucks to go for an mvp: split 60% keyboard and a separate numpad simply stuck between the two splits. If you like it, build it properly. :D

I already use a separate keyboard for each hand when I'm at my desk (external magic keyboard for left hand, right hand on laptop, with the unused half of the external keyboard underneath my propped-up laptop). Works great!

I don't usually do a lot of numerical stuff so rarely need the number pad... it'd just be nice to have a wider laptop keyboard when I'm roaming about (though tbf I'm not sure I'd want a laptop that large...)

This is a great idea!

It is also far more ergonomic than the current status quo.

It would be a great step.

Next step would be adding more keys under thumbs: backspace and arrows would be good candidates.

Some laptops have this on the touchpad, with a printed grid of numpad keys there.

Perhaps because you can buy a separate numpad if you want one, and then have the best of both worlds: both a numpad and a centered keyboard?

I don't want to have to assemble my laptop in parts. Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it.

> Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it.

Given the reportedly awful quality of webcams and especially speakers on those Clevo laptops, you might be on to something...

Assembly shouldn't be required (could be pre-configured from factory) but I don't see any reason why the top deck of a laptop couldn't be modular so the same model could support a more MacBook-like config with a centered keyboard + trackpad with no numpad and larger speakers OR an off-center keyboard and trackpad with numpad and smaller speakers.

Actually, thinking about it, it strikes me as slightly absurd that this isn't an option on at least a few mainstream laptops.

Great. I need 4 speakers for my quadrophonic music files! ;-)

Perhaps, one can just buy a mouse and have the best of both worlds?

Do numbers constitute even 5% of your keyboard usage time?

Depends on what you're doing: any kind of 3D work requires a numpad to be effective, since that's typically where camera controls are bound in every workflow I've seen.

This only applies to Blender. No other 3D software that I know of requires numpad hotkeys. I've been using Maya/Houdini/zBrush for years, never touched the numpad, that feels too awkward. If numpad keybindings in these apps do exist - I never knew about them, never needed to, never will.

(because left hand is on the keyboard, and right hand is on the mouse or stylus, and putting down the mouse to reach for a numpad is just weird.)

Doing it with the laptop would be even worse, I imagine.

Same goes for Cinema4D, wouldn't know of any numpad shortcuts

I'll say I personally can't use numpads, and they're total wasted space for me, so I try to avoid them on my keyboards and laptops, especially because they put the keyboard off-center on said laptops.

However, I think there are use cases and people who prefer using them. Some software is really geared around the full cluster being there. I've got a full size, numpad-ed keyboard (some old stock DEC thing that went to a mid 90s alphastation I believe, I got it for dirt cheap) attached to my "windows gaming machine", and I use the numpad on a few shortcut-heavy games.

Otherwise, though, I just don't have any muscle memory for it. I have to look and hunt/peck for keys on a numpad. I'm mostly using bash and vim for work, though...

I did work experience for a week for my IT course when I was about 15 in the offices of a petroleum-selling company. I spent a day or two in the accounts department absolutely amazed by the ~50 year old lady who was showing me how she input numeral data into the old green-screen workstation, fingers flying over the numpad inputting quantities and prices. As someone who even then felt I was 'good' with computers, I was stunned and thought I'd never get to that level.

Now I feel crippled whenever I'm on my laptop, which doesn't have a numpad, my own fingers flailing uselessly over numbers that whilst in mind are not available to my right hand.

I should probably get one of those external numpad USB things, but I much prefer a whinge.

To some professions, they do.

This includes a surprising variety, from accountants and POS, to 3D modelling artists...

Outside of typing out emails or schpiels, yes. If I discount Ctrl, Alt & Shift - probably significantly more than 5%.

Excel users yes.

I feel you, but after having chugged around 17 inch laptops for a while, I've come to the conclusion taht if I need a "big screen" I usually can place an external monitor + a ten-key USB thingy in that place and then just have a good 13 inch for other moments.

The NEO2 layout has the numpad on another layer under the right hand, no numpad needed.

> It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one.

I can't remember when was the last time I had to type more than 8 at any time.

even if I had that use-case, I'd still be annoyed having the typing home position off-center.

go split / layer keyboard, and you will change your mind. I will never go back to a num pad, cause it would mean the loss of layers and a 60% TKL.

Until you experience it, you will not have the experience.

Either UHK v2 or Dygma Raise. Both are great.

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