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fnord77

I don't understand why many of these workstation-class laptops have num. pads.

It is so annoying to type with your hands off-center from the screen.

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I don't understand why many workstation-class laptops DONT have a num pads.

It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one.

Do numbers constitute even 5% of your keyboard usage time?

Depends on what you're doing: any kind of 3D work requires a numpad to be effective, since that's typically where camera controls are bound in every workflow I've seen.

I'll say I personally can't use numpads, and they're total wasted space for me, so I try to avoid them on my keyboards and laptops, especially because they put the keyboard off-center on said laptops.

However, I think there are use cases and people who prefer using them. Some software is really geared around the full cluster being there. I've got a full size, numpad-ed keyboard (some old stock DEC thing that went to a mid 90s alphastation I believe, I got it for dirt cheap) attached to my "windows gaming machine", and I use the numpad on a few shortcut-heavy games.

Otherwise, though, I just don't have any muscle memory for it. I have to look and hunt/peck for keys on a numpad. I'm mostly using bash and vim for work, though...

I did work experience for a week for my IT course when I was about 15 in the offices of a petroleum-selling company. I spent a day or two in the accounts department absolutely amazed by the ~50 year old lady who was showing me how she input numeral data into the old green-screen workstation, fingers flying over the numpad inputting quantities and prices. As someone who even then felt I was 'good' with computers, I was stunned and thought I'd never get to that level.

Now I feel crippled whenever I'm on my laptop, which doesn't have a numpad, my own fingers flailing uselessly over numbers that whilst in mind are not available to my right hand.

I should probably get one of those external numpad USB things, but I much prefer a whinge.

This only applies to Blender. No other 3D software that I know of requires numpad hotkeys. I've been using Maya/Houdini/zBrush for years, never touched the numpad, that feels too awkward. If numpad keybindings in these apps do exist - I never knew about them, never needed to, never will.

(because left hand is on the keyboard, and right hand is on the mouse or stylus, and putting down the mouse to reach for a numpad is just weird.)

Doing it with the laptop would be even worse, I imagine.

Same goes for Cinema4D, wouldn't know of any numpad shortcuts

To some professions, they do.

This includes a surprising variety, from accountants and POS, to 3D modelling artists...

Outside of typing out emails or schpiels, yes. If I discount Ctrl, Alt & Shift - probably significantly more than 5%.

Excel users yes.

Perhaps because you can buy a separate numpad if you want one, and then have the best of both worlds: both a numpad and a centered keyboard?

Perhaps, one can just buy a mouse and have the best of both worlds?

I don't want to have to assemble my laptop in parts. Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it.

Assembly shouldn't be required (could be pre-configured from factory) but I don't see any reason why the top deck of a laptop couldn't be modular so the same model could support a more MacBook-like config with a centered keyboard + trackpad with no numpad and larger speakers OR an off-center keyboard and trackpad with numpad and smaller speakers.

Actually, thinking about it, it strikes me as slightly absurd that this isn't an option on at least a few mainstream laptops.

> Why not the webcam and the mouse and the speakers while we're at it.

Given the reportedly awful quality of webcams and especially speakers on those Clevo laptops, you might be on to something...

Great. I need 4 speakers for my quadrophonic music files! ;-)

This debate makes me wonder what it'd be like to have a keyboard layout in which the num pad is in the middle of the keyboard, such that on a qwerty keyboard Q-T, A-G, Z-V are on one side and Y-P, H-L, B-M on another, with the numbers in the middle (separated by a buffer space).

I know this sounds crazy, but IME the worst part of keyboard ergonomics on mac laptops is that my hands are much closer together than my shoulders are; widening to shoulder width makes for much more comfortable typing.

I'm sure nobody will crazy enough to build a laptop like this, but it makes me wonder...

Nice idea. Keyboard design is stuck in typewriter era and my shoulders and wrists could use an ergonomics upgrade. There's nice split keyboards, but the price is steep (~300 euros vs my current sub 10 euro keyboard).

I've been typing on a ~60eur let's split for the better part of a year now. Made myself some nice armrests out of scrps of locust. My more expensive keyboards don't hold a candle to it imo

By "scrps of locust" do you mean scraps of Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) wood?

Get an mnt reform and build your own :D Or just invest the few bucks to go for an mvp: split 60% keyboard and a separate numpad simply stuck between the two splits. If you like it, build it properly. :D

I already use a separate keyboard for each hand when I'm at my desk (external magic keyboard for left hand, right hand on laptop, with the unused half of the external keyboard underneath my propped-up laptop). Works great!

I don't usually do a lot of numerical stuff so rarely need the number pad... it'd just be nice to have a wider laptop keyboard when I'm roaming about (though tbf I'm not sure I'd want a laptop that large...)

I agree you probably won't find this in a laptop ever, thanks to the standard keyboard design still being stuck with strange quirks, some of which were already outdated in the era of actual typewriters.

That said if you're a numpad user a keyboard with centered numpad is pretty much the best concept other than the rabbit hole of custom ergonomic keyboard layouts. Either way you can only get into that realm with a lot of money unfortunately.

Go down the rabbit hole! :) You’re one text file away from plopping a numpad anywhere you want on the laptop’s keyboard. Right Alt + K is the center of a numpad on my XPS 13.

Oh don't worry, I'm already neck deep. Anything other than a 40% columnar staggered layout doesn't cut it anymore ;)

This is a great idea!

It is also far more ergonomic than the current status quo.

As someone with a disability who types with one hand, please for the love of God don't make this the standard

I've been vaguely pining for an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad in the middle. In a typical display of mainstream keyboard makers being completely stuck on the same track, keyboards with an embedded trackpad have it on the right, despite laptops providing a ubiquitous example right in our faces and hands.

This 100%. Or a trackball. Look up the oddball keyboard or the ultimate hacking keyboard with its modules concept.

I've been thinking of getting an ergodox and putting a trackpad in the middle..not sure if the windows Trackpads on Amazon will work on Linux though.

Interesting... are there any keyboards with a trackball in a position easily accessible by the right thumb? (I haven't used a trackball myself but I've heard good things...)

EDIT: hadn't seen the sibling commenter mention https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/ which looks interesting, but perhaps too minimal for my taste (eg; where's the space button?)

Ergodox, if you're reading this, an integrated trackpad/trackball solution would be pretty appealing!

Afaik the ‘Ultimate Hacking Keyboard’ does that via its modules: http://xahlee.info/kbd/iergo/UHK_addon_modules_trackball_330...

Turns out it even has a touchpad, though its size is pitiful. Alas the whole keyboard reeks more of ‘mechanical + wacky layout‘ approach, with dubious ergonomics aside from the split halves.

Otherwise, trackballs on keyboards don't seem too rare: image search turns up this Adesso board (https://www.hippo-deals.com/products-images/1500/65915.jpg or better-ish https://www.adesso.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2017061601...), something named KeyTronic, etc.

I've considered it!

I use an ErgoDox, and there's just enough space in the middle for a numpad.

But I often stick my phone there, and I just don't think I'd use it very often. Technically I can pop up a layer to turn the right side keys into a numpad (advantage of ortholinear) but I don't quite have the muscle memory to really take advantage of it so that's basically wasted.

I've mulled over having a special lighting routine that lights up only those characters, in distinct colors, that would probably get me close enough. But it's just enough hassle that I never get around to it.

I've been thinking about buying a trackpad and an ergodox and putting the trackpad in the middle. Think it will fit? Think that's a good idea? Where do you put the mouse when using an ergodox?

I use a trackball to the right of the righthand side

A trackpad should fit, because you really want the halves parallel to your shoulders or just a bit tighter. Though as I think about the movements and gestures, you might find one of the halves interfering by being where your wrist naturally wants to be.

I have a Moonlander and a Magic Trackpad. I tried putting it in the middle and you can make it fit, but I haven't found it to be very comfortable. My keyboard is slightly tilted, so moving my hand to the middle also necessitates vertical movement, so overall I prefer it off to the right side. For minor movements I just use a mouse mapped to the keyboard and I want to try a trackball on my right as well.

Many Korean tripartite (세벌식) keyboard layouts have a virtual numpad accessible with shift. In a particular layout I'm using [1] it is HJKL:YUIOP for 0 through 9, so you can type 3.141592 with shift plus L.J:JYPK. Note that most symbols from the numpad can also be typed with shift, and full stop and comma can be specifically typed with or without shift. To me it is much better than the ordinary numpad (even at the middle) because it only takes two rows instead of three rows.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sebeolsik_Flnal.svg

It would be a great step.

Next step would be adding more keys under thumbs: backspace and arrows would be good candidates.

You could always get this e-ink keyboard that is being crowd-funded the nemeio where you can I guess completely customize the keys https://www.nemeio.com/ - seems interesting and could allow you to easily explore alternative layouts but not sure how good the ergonomics of a keyboard like that would be but it seems interesting to me.

Some laptops have this on the touchpad, with a printed grid of numpad keys there.

That does sound neat and would actually be quite withing the realm of possibility for a System76 laptop since their controllers are open-source. If you got like 50 people to chip in, you could probably get the production cost for one unit under 100$, which is still cheaper than most desktop split keyboards on the market.

The NEO2 layout has the numpad on another layer under the right hand, no numpad needed.

go split / layer keyboard, and you will change your mind. I will never go back to a num pad, cause it would mean the loss of layers and a 60% TKL.

Until you experience it, you will not have the experience.

Either UHK v2 or Dygma Raise. Both are great.

> It is so annoying to have to type long sequences of digits without one.

I can't remember when was the last time I had to type more than 8 at any time.

I feel you, but after having chugged around 17 inch laptops for a while, I've come to the conclusion taht if I need a "big screen" I usually can place an external monitor + a ten-key USB thingy in that place and then just have a good 13 inch for other moments.

even if I had that use-case, I'd still be annoyed having the typing home position off-center.

I don't understand why most developers that work in a stationary location use underpowered/thermally-constrained laptops rather than a desktop machine.

Because I work in multiple stationary locations. Even during pandemic.

If I really wanted to work on desktop I'd need to buy a car and bother with transporting it few times a week, or I'd need to buy multiple desktops and move only external SSD.

And in that case it would be a luxury, but I'd still want a laptop for occasional work and entertainment from couch.

Or you could have a powerful desktop machine and SSH/RDP into it from a less powerful laptop.

Latency from multiple locations would be a problem, also would need to expose it to the internet, and static IP is a problem. I'm sure there are solutions to this tho, but not worth it IMO.

I was wondering that about myself for a while. Upgraded from a laptop to a desktop and it's awesome. The ease of maintainability (and upgradability) and ergonomics of not having a laptop on the table are awesome. Plus it's much cheaper.

Ever try using Blender without one? You absolutely need the numpad for 3D programs and game engines, otherwise it's outright painful.

You can always add a usb numpad, but you can never remove one that is already there.

True. Why do they sell laptops with screen built in?

Because all laptop users make use of the screen.

A large number of laptop users just use them on the desktop, tethered to a big screen, in clamshell mode. This includes almost every vlogger setup one can find...

Except the primary design goal of a laptop remains portability to some extent. And not having a screen would make it an incomplete device.

Surely this is just due to a lack of knowledge? If you're never going to use the portability, then you can get a much more powerful desktop than a laptop given the same amount of money.

Having a built in UPS is pretty sweet for some use cases though.

>Surely this is just due to a lack of knowledge? If you're never going to use the portability, then you can get a much more powerful desktop than a laptop given the same amount of money.

They can also just like having the option of portability, and appreciate the less bulk. Plus, they do use it once in a blue moon outside (at a conference, traveling, etc).

That's what my original argument stated,

> Because all laptop users make use of the screen.

If they wanted less bulk, they could buy an Intel Nuc or similar form factor device.

The screen and portability are the compelling feature of the laptop design.

I use it like that 80-90% of the time, but the on the rest I just use it purely as laptop on the couch. I like to have both options.

Then they would be better served by a desktop.

They do sell them without built in screens too - Mac Mini for example.

They don't call them laptops though.

A long time ago I used to own a laptop that I bought from a friend after someone stepped on it and broke the screen. I removed the screen and installed some version of Linux on it.

It turned out to be quite fun and useful. Not a very good laptop if you want to use it where you don't have a screen, but it was kind of like a modern TRS-80. You could treat it like a keyboard and not have the laptop screen get in the way of the larger desktop monitor (back then it probably would have been a CRT) I actually wanted to use. In a sense it was actually less awkward than a normal laptop for the way I usually wanted to use it.

Excellent idea! Then you can reposition it so that the useless numpad doesn't force the main keyboard to be off-center. ;-)

I did think that for the first few weeks of using Blender, but I find I don't use it any more. I think perhaps once I was using Blenders verb / constrain / snap model I stopped using the ortho views. So for example (G)rab / X / (10)units. (S)cale, Y, 1.5. (E)xtrude, Y, Snap.

Im not a top tier user of blender but I get by via remapping some of the relevant keys. I don't use all the features, but I feel like having no numpad is well supported in blender, and is irrelevant in Unity and Godot. Can't speak to unreal.

Using a mouse is very bad for my shoulders if it's too far away from my center. Numpads are simply not an option for me, unless I had an external one in a special location.

I think the numpad users are outnumbered by the indifferent and numpad haters. I'm in the latter column.

Six years ago, I searched long and hard for a 15.6in screen laptop with a SSD and no numeric keypad. HP had just come out with the first of their Omen series of gaming laptops.

I've sort of regretted the decision. Not the keypad part, I still hate those, but there are other little aspects to the laptop I still don't like, or didn't work quite right.

I don't know, I guess I shouldn't really complain. For all the expense, the 16G of RAM and SSD are holding up well after this time. The programmable gaming keys didn't work quite right for my purposes (I just wanted dedicated PgUp / PgDown, Home and End, with the shift and Ctrl variants), and the battery life is crap these days (glued in). It still mostly works though.

If you were a blender user, you would understand.

Lots of people don't care.

It can be important to keep the trackpad close to centered on the keyboard for easily use of both, but the screen not aligning by a couple inches is purely aesthetic.

To me a num pad is a waste of space, but my Dell M6800 with a 3rd mouse button on the trackpad - wonderful luxury!

I do dislike them too.

It would be better for that keypad to be on the left side, as it interferes less with mouse use.

But, a friend of mine, was asking specifically to get a laptop with such an extended keyboard.

They're optimizing for the professional accounting Olympics use case.

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